Protosound 1 problem

Mike, This one is on the list of engines, that if started with low battery could deselect. Requires the chip to be replaced.

I would remove BCR and use a new alkaline battery. Ensure volume pot is turned on, and try it again, ensuring voltage kept just below 10 volts at start up and listen for sounds.

The reset chip is just for 3 clanks.

If it still doesn't work, after shutting down for 30 sec. Start up the engine and raise voltage above 14 volts and then lower as if you are trying to program it. You should here one clank. Try again and if you can't get anymore clanks tryign to program, then the chip is bad (most likely).

A MTH ASC has reset chips to try to restore it, but my last 3 "list engines" all had deselected chips and required replacement.

If you have another PS 1 chip that is known good, you could install it to verify the boards work fine.

I do have the specific chip you need, so you can contact me off line. G

Thanks G, appreciate the suggestions, will try those out and get back to you.

Mike

OK, G. here's what happens: I put in the alkaline battery and got sound on start up and two clanks. I get no clanks moving the throttle up and down as if I'm programming except sometimes I will get a clank if I push the whistle button but not all the time. Pushing the direction button does nothing. I get one clank on shutdown. According to your description, sounds like a bad chip. Would I still get sound if the chip is bad? I have one other proto 1 engine an NW2 that I could try the chip in the Amtrak to check the board. Mike

Mike, That is the classic symptom of the engine "deselected" for the list engines. I would put the NW chip in using a proper chip puller and ensure the cutoff corner is oriented right and use the fully charge battery. I am guessing the engine will run right. You can try the amtrack chip in your NW engine, but I think your at 99.9% that the amtrack chip is bad. Let me know if you need my chip. G

Mike,

If the engine runs with the NW2 chip, then try putting the F-40PH chip back in and see if it will work. I had the same engine deselect and it worked fine by doing this with a known good chip. I wouldn't get rid of the BCR and use it once I got the engine running properly. Just be sure to charge it up for 1 minute with the voltage above 10 volts if the engine has been turned off for 2 or 3 hours.

Joe, Did your chip only clank once when trying to program?

These symptoms are classic for deselect. I have not been able to restore a "deselected" chip with the factory chip set nor after running the engine with a good chip.

There are other "processor and chip" scrambles that can be restored.

No harm trying it though. G

OK guys, thanks for the great advice, I'll try the other chip and if it works, put the F-40PH chip back in. Have to do it tomorrow (Sunday) so stay tuned....

Mike

quote:

OK, G. here's what happens: I put in the alkaline battery and got sound on start up and two clanks. I get no clanks moving the throttle up and down as if I'm programming

G,
I have had 5 engines behave as above and I was able to use the original chip again after getting them to run with a good spare I have on hand. I have reprogrammed 1 with the three clanks of death. And 1 where the bottom board was bad and I had to replace it.

The new chip will solve the deselect problem from happening again. And the original chip can deselect the board again if the battery is allowed to get down to 5 or 6 volts.

Not all PS1 engines have the deselect or scrambling problem, but it is often hard to know which ones are.

The very first PS1 engines with a battery switch on the bottom could run without a battery with no problems, but had no sounds until a battery was installed and the switch was turned on. The switch had to be turned off after use to keep the battery from going dead. I never heard of one of these scrambling or deselecting.

Guys,

I forgot to tell you to do a 18 Reset for Default Settings (3 Clanks/3 Clinks) with the good chip before replacing the original one back.

Joe, There is a published list for the "deselect" issue. I am being very specific here. An engine on the list, lights, but no motion, and can not advance in the reset state past one clank.

According to MTH a deselected chip on the list has a software glitch that allows the engine to be deselected with no way to restored it.

Other engines that give two bells, but don't have motion and are not on the "list" are not engines that have been deselected. They can be restored.

3 clanks is another whole issue and easy to restore from.

Similiar issues but not the same.

But hey, I would love to see it work. That is what I was trying to find out from QSI; was there any backdoor way to remove the "deselect" condition. G

G,
I remember hearing a single clank on some of these engines, but I can't say for sure when or what I did before it happened. I'll have to check on this the next time I run into this. I run BCR's in all my PS1 engines and haven't had any problems with the same engines I fixed.

Joe, I have a deselected engine I am waiting for a chip on and I tried your method. No joy. Even though I can enter reset #18 on the engine with a good test chip, once I reinstall the original chip it will not work in the engine.

There is more to this story though, and look for the post I will start about PS-1 and QSI 2+. G

Well guys, I installed a UP SD-90 chip in the Amtrak F-40PH and it ran fine, when I put the original chip back in the Amtrak, it did the same thing again, lights, sound and one clank but no movement. AS GGG indicates, this is one of the engines on the "death wish" deselect software error list by MTH that cannot be repaired (so they say).

I guess I will have to get another chip.........

Mike

Mike,
Did you do the reset 18 before replacing the original back in the engine? This engine was cataloged in '97 and MTH states '95 & '96 as the problem years the chip needed replacing.

Joe, the chip has the following markings:

1996 QSI
Amtrak F-40PH
W/ PFA

So......I guess it's a replacement one

thanks for your help,

Mike

Joe, The list engines span beyond 1996. If it is on the list it is suceptible. Cataloged in 97 may have used boards from 96.

I posted on the other forum, but I got the bad chip working fine in my N&W J. The N&W J worked fine in the bad engine. I did reset #18 on both engines. When I returned the original bad chip to it's original engine it still did not work.

So I think memory gets set in both the chip and processor that prevent them from working together, even though the chip will work in a different engine and the engine will work with a different chip.

I have heard the above statements before including the guys working at MTH. Chips working in one engine but not another.

According to MTH, the only solution is the new chip with upgraded software. It is funny it will work with other processor, but not it's original one after being deselected. G

quote:

I posted on the other forum, but I got the bad chip working fine in my N&W J. The N&W J worked fine in the bad engine. I did reset #18 on both engines. When I returned the original bad chip to it's original engine it still did not work.

So I think memory gets set in both the chip and processor that prevent them from working together, even though the chip will work in a different engine and the engine will work with a different chip.

I have heard the above statements before including the guys working at MTH. Chips working in one engine but not another.

G,
So it's possible that Mike might have been able to switch boards in his two engines and got them both to operating again? Interesting and the first time I've heard of this.

Do you know of any other PS1 problems besides the "3 clanks of death" and the Bug that causes the deselect problem?

Yes, I was think about that, but what I don't know is where the original software glitch was for these "list engines". You may run the risk of deselecting another processor board if you have a low battery condition.

I have contacted QSI rep. Will see if I get a response. Yes there is more than 2 issues. There are 2meg board issues, 3 clanks, deselect, and possible scrambles. Most can be corrected with forcing chips, but this deselect condition requires a new chip with software according to MTH.

The other experimemt I have tried is deselected chips in different engines that are deselected, and they don't work. I need to try those chips in an engine that is not on the list and see how they do.

This does reenforce others who have said they could swap chips to different engines and have them work fine, but not in their original engine.

I know their is a hard reset for the PS-2 board, have you heard of a hard reset method for MTH's PS-1 boards?

Mike, Your chip marking is normal. Many later manufactured engines have the 1996 marking on the chip. G

G,
So what do you think of the 5 engines that I couldn't get to leave reset or do any programming (factory resets) until I placed a good chip into it, ran it, did a reset 18, and then the original worked after replacing it? I figured they had deselected. They acted very much like Mike's engine. They've run fine since. I'm not sure if my 20-2147-LP Amtrak F-40PH engine's chip had 1996 on it or not without opening up the engine.

I use a Z-4000 with remote receiver and by-pass the TIU when working on these as I have seen a couple of engines not liking the TIU. Especially when double heading. These engines above that wouldn't leave reset were purchased needing repair. I haven't scrambled any myself when in use.

I've known about the PS2 hard resets for a number of years where the board is shorted by jumping a couple of pins on the board, but I don't know how it's done. Only MTH techs have that information and MTH doesn't want everyone to know how to do it. I think it resets the mileage and hours went done. Sometimes it can resurrect a dead board but not always if something is blown on it. I've never heard of a hard reset for PS1.

There are scrambles that do not deselect. MTH provides chips to clear those types of issues. Do you have the engine model numbers? I have also seen MTH engines with upgraded QSI boards.

Deselects are different and only apply to a select group of engines. G

G,
All of the problem engines that I own are cataloged in 1996, 97 & 98. They all were run very little except for the RailKing and had factory boards and MTH on the chips.

The product numbers: 30-2116-1, 20-2140-1, 20-2147-1, 20-2171-1 & 20-2172-1

These were revived by the procedure of running with a good chip, reset 18 & installing the original chip. Others on the forum have had the same experience.

Joe, I don't know what to say. What good chip did you use?

The first 3 engines you listed are on the list, and the last ones are not.

It is possible the first 3 were not actually deselected, rather just locked out or some other scramble.

I have 8 chips from engines on the deselect list and while 7 of the 8 work in other engines none have worked in the deselected engine even after reset 18 with a good chip.

Mike tried it with his 2147 and it did not work.

The procedure is to use a good test chip to see that the engine boards work, then try to do a factory reset with the original chip. If you can only get one clink when trying to program (move from reset to reset position #1 but can't advance further) and the engine is on the list; then replace chip.

From looking at the QSI manuals, there are engine ID positions used to address and engine and select or deselect an engine. Those addresses are not rest on default. They have to written over, or you need to "select all engines". These features where not used in MTH Engines. I even reset the bad chip including clearing ID locations in a QSI PS2+ board that has the capability and that did not work. G

quote:

What good chip did you use?

G,
I had bought a used PS1 board with the chip in it. Here's the information on the chip below:

1996 QSI
OO SCALE
SD70 MAC
MTH

I just assumed the problem engines deselected as they had all the symptoms as in case #2 on the MTH website below:

www.mth-railking.com/service/p1batt.asp

Can I borrow it? G

quote:

The procedure is to use a good test chip to see that the engine boards work, then try to do a factory reset with the original chip.

G,
I had to do the reset 18 with the good chip first, the same procedure as when you use the 3 clanks chip. Running the good chip and then trying to do the reset with the original didn't work for me.

quote:

I have 8 chips from engines on the deselect list and while 7 of the 8 work in other engines none have worked in the deselected engine even after reset 18 with a good chip.

Joe, I tried your method, did not work.

"I have 8 chips from engines on the deselect list and while 7 of the 8 work in other engines none have worked in the deselected engine even after reset 18 with a good chip."

G

quote:

Joe, I tried your method, did not work.

I couldn't get it to work either but Joe, I have a question about the reset 18 sequence. Do you do the reset 18 while the the new chip is in the running deselected engine before you replace the old chip?

Mike

quote:

Do you do the reset 18 while the the new chip is in the running deselected engine before you replace the old chip?

Mike,
Yes. That's how I done it with my Z-4000 transformer. Apparently, it hasn't worked for you or G. You did get the warbled bell sound when doing the reset 18 with the good chip in the engine?

Joe, I took a good chip from another PS-1 engine I had, put it in the Amtrak and it ran fine, then I did a reset 18 with the Z-4000 with the new chip in the Amtrak. I then replaced the old chip and nothing, I only get sound, no engine control as before. It is definitely a bad chip. I found an Amtrak replacement chip and the seller on ebay refunded the money for it.

I guess I can close this thread now, thanks to all of you with your help. I'm really a PS-2 guy, but I couldn't resist trying to fix this. I certainly learned in the process.....

Mike

I think your problem can be solved by a visit to an MTH service station. They have a "FIX" (hard reset) chip that sounds like it will fix your problem. If you have sound, but no motion, that is what this chip fixes. It is not the same as the 'make PS' 3 clank chip.

CHuck, This is an engine on the list and deselected. The FIX chips don't work either.

Mike, Do you need my chip? G

Well then the only other fix is a new processor board, # AE-4500001, still available from MTH.

Chuck, For engine on the list were there was a software bug on the PROM, MTH loads a new PROM with corrected software and the engine will work fine.

In these cases the engine will work with the F-3 test chip, or any other MTH chip not on the deselected list and deselcted.

Just needs a good chip. G

OK

quote:

Mike, Do you need my chip? G

Yes, that was the chip I was referring to in my post. MO is in the mail.

quote:

I think your problem can be solved by a visit to an MTH service station.

Chuck, I checked with my local MTH Service Station and they say that this engine has a faulty chip that cannot be fixed with any reset when it goes bad. Only solution is a new chip.

OK, keep us posted when you install your replacement chip.

I finally figured it out. I just restored two PS-1 engines that are on the "List" and were deselected. The original chip now runs the engine.

The QSI board has a processsor (large multi pin square), an EEPROM ( a small 8 pin chip that has 2K of non-volatile memory for retaining state changes along with other watchdog functions); and the PROM (the replaceable chip that contains the software and is Read Only Memory).

The key is to reset the EEPROM which has stored an Engine ID that the original chip cannot access or circumvent. This engine ID is how QSI could allow a trains to be on a track with voltage, but the processor would ignore the voltage and wait for a combination of horn presses that matched the operator assigned ID before it would start the engine up.

For a deselected engine, the processor starts up and you hear 2 bells indicating proper processor start up, but no engine sounds and the engine will not respond to the direction button. No sound and no motion.

The QSI engine stores IDs in several reset locations, and there is no default value, that is why a reset 18 won't work. To reset the IDs to "NO ID" you need to place a working PROM in the engine that is a chip not on the deselect list. This chip will bypass the engine ID and the engine will start up (MTH did not want the Engine ID feature so the software was suppose to skip that sequence). You now need to access reset position #3 and press the horn button. Then Reset #17 and do the same. Then go to reset #18 and press and hold the horn button until you hear a garbled bell and a clear bell. At that point follow the normal instructions and take voltage to zero and immediately back up to a value less than 10 volts to get the engine to move/lock in the settings.

Reset positions #3 and #17 clear all engine IDs. (Clear the value accidentely set in the EEPROM when a dead battery shutdown occurred).

Then shutdown and wait the 20 secs for the battery circuit and processor to shutdown. Swap the original chip back in and start up the engine. The engine should start up and function correctly. Ensure you have a good battery.

The chips from engines on the list still have a software program that can allow it to happen again especially if there is an aborted shutdown sequence (dead battery).

So replacing the chip is still recommended. But if not, you just have to go through this restore feature.

There are other faults that can occur that may not be restored by this method, but ASC techs have thoses restoration chips. This specifically fixes engine on the list that have had an engine ID assigned by the dead battery shutdown. G

G,
Just to let you know I have a 20-2121-1 Southern FM that wouldn't leave reset. Runs fine with another chip. I tried running it with a different chip and it ran.
I did a reset 18 and then replaced with the original and the same thing, no go.

I then tried the resets 3, 17, and 18 using a Z-4000 with the chip that will run it and it will not move with the original chip placed back in. It was worth a try. I got lucky with the others I guess, but I think this one needs a new replacement chip.........Joe