2020 PRR E8 color questions? Wrong Color?

Yes, the NYC E8s were also very light.  in fact, the dark gray body was lighter than the light gray stripes.  In addition, the NYC didn't have dynamic brakes.

(not my picture)

Sold mine immediately and haven't ordered anything since.

Ask a NYO&W fan about their F3s...

(Again, not my picture)

Its sad really, I love their early scale stuff, when they paid attention to both details and modeler's inputs.

@Slipskull posted:

This was my first time ordering a locomotive from Lionel. Do they normally mess up this bad?

Unfortunately, for the last few years, yes. The list is long and growing. It’s maddening.

Having been on the receiving end of a number of them, I can honestly say your best recourse is to return them if you can’t live with them as-is.

I'm really torn on if I should return it. Lionel did a really nice job with the details on these locos. They have the ditch lights and the correct fan configuration to match the Juniata terminal E8s. I don't think anyone has add those details before (correct me if I'm wrong). Has anyone re-painted there locos before?

They forgot the hep details like they said would be included

Lionel's paint color renditions in the last few years have been, in a word, crap. 

Here's the ones from a few years ago

Tom21pa,

What does the hep look like. I'm not expert on the E8s.

@Slipskull posted:

Tom21pa,

What does the hep look like. I'm not expert on the E8s.

The mufflers on the back.

Those look terrible, sorry. The color should be Tuscan, which is not red in any way.  Period. Your passenger cars look correct.  

It really bugged me how this occurs when both versions of the PRR E8 that Lionel did in 2012 and 2017 were the correct shade, or just with any other repeat of an existing scheme.

You know the old saying "If it ain't broke, don't fix it." ? What's going on here?

Weaver E8 middle, BP20 far, Near MTH ES44

Maybe they had n&w j class stripe paint left over?

It is discomforting to realize Lionel will be the only major manufacturer left after MTH exits the scene. 

I can't fathom that the colors on engines, passenger cars, and rolling stock are still arriving wrong.  You get one, maybe 2 when you realize there is an issue in manufacturing and then correct it.  I certainly don't know what the issue is but I don't understand why this hasn't been addressed.  I feel bad for the folks that have to deal with this.  I really like the guys at Lionel but they have to know there's a problem.

I hate to say this but if you are unhappy with the color return it to your dealer.

That looks like leftover paint from the incorrect stripe color on the N&W J's

Kinda like the leftover silver  from the passenger sets that's been on smoke boxes for the last 3 years.

It could have been worse......... at least this loco didn't get a silver smokebox, it got a white one

( Photo courtesy of Bruk)

Swing and a miss! Sorry to see that paint came  out so wrong.

I’ve said on previous threads that I am done with preorders. The light gray smokebox on the latest VL Challenger was the last straw for me.

I only make purchases now after I watch a video on YouTube and/or see some pics or video on this forum. If I miss out on something, so be it.

Wow they don’t even come close to what’s pictured in the catalog. I have a set of the 2017 PRR E8s that are the correct shade of Tuscan Red. I did purchase the round top boxcars that were in the 2018 catalog (i think) one had the correct paint and one was very light with a strong red tint. Since it was just a boxcar I did not make a fuss, in fact I thought it would add some reality to my PRR fleet as all the freight cars were the darker shade of Tuscan Red so here was a faded boxcar that was due to make a trip to the paint shop. However a mistake like this is just too much on E8 diesels especially ones that were not used by the PRR but used for excursion service after the PRR was long gone and a ton of published photographs exist unlike original PRR photos that were early color film or black and white.

Other than returning them to your dealer try calling Lionel to complain. In the past they have re-issued paint error shells if they get enough complaints. Since these are modern E8s with ditch lights and recent photographs exist I don’t see how they can duck this mistake. I own many Lionel PRR diesels and am a big Legacy fan but will not be ordering any Tuscan engines until they correct the paint. Hope the next E units come in DLG.

JohnB

This is an ongoing issue with Lionel's quality control.  To me, the question is this:

• Did Lionel specify that color when they placed the contract with the overseas builder, or did they simply specify PRR tuscan red, and leave it to the manufacturer to figure out?  Or . . .
• Did Lionel provide paint chips and other specifics, but not follow up with compliance/quality checks during manufacturing?

Really, to us, Lionel's customers, the end result is all that matters, but I am beginning to wonder of there is anyone at Lionel these days who knows something about prototype trains, or whether they make on-site inspections before they accept the product for shipment to the US.  I'm serious . . . are the Lionel folks just guys who own a business making model trains, or do they actually have an interest in railroads?

I empathize with Slipskill and all others who purchased these PRR E8 units.  

Every time I run my pair of Lionel Santa Fe Fairbanks-Morse H16-44's which are painted black with white zebra stripes and lettering, instead of aluminum like the prototype, I wonder how much research Lionel did and how reliable the researcher was.  There are so many railroad-specific technical and historical societies these days that it is inexcusable for a model train company to produce models painted incorrectly, and especially in the case of the Pennsylvania Railroad, which is extremely popular.

I ordered, sight unseen, the PRR GLAs the last time they ran them.    I assumed, silly me, that they would be a match for the 9 or 12 I got from the first runs and I would have a nice long train of alike painted cars.    Unfortunately the last run came in with very orange flavored paint.    Maybe it is good for 1920s era  early pennsy paint which was supposed to be "lighter" but I don't know.     I was very disappointed because I wanted them to match the ones I already had.     Also the original runs had good models of the PRR truck that was used on the GLA.    Again, silly me, I assumed the new ones would also have the more accurate truck.    And again I was disapointed, lionel put a generic bettendorf style truck on the last run.    It is easier to covert to 2 rail, but not accurate as the first runs.    

I think someone mentioned, lionel is some business guys running a company that sells toy trains.   If they hit a home run once in awhile and do a nice scale model so bit it.    But I don't think that is their focus.   

Other mfg aim to make scale models, and some do both 2 and 3 rail, and deserve some support also.

Seems to me there are very few people satisfied with manufactured paint schemes. Lionel seems to have seldom got it right, going back into the 50s. MTH isn't that much better. Canadian Pacific colors on 40s/50s diesels in gray/maroon have never been close on the maroon, which always looks more like brown. Anyone who's seen originals gleaming in the sunshine knows CP maroon, both reddish and rendered in glossy tone, not flat.

But, maybe the real issue is closer to: what excuse do builders have to NOT replicate real schemes? I think "#90" above hit the nail on the head about color chips not being sent, or if sent, the analysis was wrong right off the color chip. Don't makers understand the first thing anyone sees is the color of the item right out of the box?

@Virginian65 posted:

But, maybe the real issue is closer to: what excuse do builders have to NOT replicate real schemes? I think "#90" above hit the nail on the head about color chips not being sent, or if sent, the analysis was wrong right off the color chip. Don't makers understand the first thing anyone sees is the color of the item right out of the box?

There's a story Billy Wade of B.T.S. once told of a customer bringing in an HO model of a Seaboard E7 in Seafoam Green.  All the local "experts" criticized the color used as being wrong in one fashion or the other.

Here's the catch: The model was painted with Seafoam Green from the Seaboard Railroad's paint shop...

Rusty

Premise #1: They are toys.

Premise #2: They are expensive toys.

Premise #3: Even the buyers of toys, and expensive ones, deserve accuracy.

Premise #4: It takes just as much effort to get it wrong as it does to get it right. We can forgive (and probably not even perceive) paint that is a few ångströms off, but those examples in this thread are horrendous mistakes.

Premise #5: In this electronic age, I am sure that there must be systems that can scan, digitize, assign codes, and reproduce any color in creation. I can take a paint chip or a piece of wallpaper to my local hardware guys, who are not rocket surgeons, and I can get paint that is absolutely spot on.  They have a scanner and mixer that does this accurately every time.  Lionel has more money than I do, so I would expect that they can do it, and better, too.

To me, the most frustrating thing is when the new releases don’t match previous releases of similar engines or the cars they are suppose to pair with. If some newly found research or photo of the prototype shows up and suddenly it becomes clear that all previous models have been wrong, fine. Say it in the catalog and put everyone on notice that the new ones will be different.

This cannot be that hard, yet these color mistakes just keep coming and coming. In the case at hand, I would not hold out for new shells. Send them back. You can always buy them back if they get fixed. It’s true a few new shells have been made, but far more have not been addressed.

Doing a simple Google search turned up Pennsylvania E8 prototype photos that match Lionel's version. There were also prototype photos where the color was darker.  Looks like batch to batch variations in paint production which was common back then. The OP may not like the color but it appears Lionel got this one correct.

@PGentieu posted:

It is discomforting to realize Lionel will be the only major manufacturer left after MTH exits the scene.

3rd Rail is still putting out the highest quality product available in the 3 rail market and won't be going anywhere soon.  Quality costs a little more, but it's worth it for the level of thought, QC and customer service.

@WBC posted:

Doing a simple Google search turned up Pennsylvania E8 prototype photos that match Lionel's version. There were also prototype photos where the color was darker.  Looks like batch to batch variations in paint production which was common back then. The OP may not like the color but it appears Lionel got this one correct.

The internet is not a great source for color matching as photographs vary based on type of camera, sensor type or film, color balance, time of day, and any color balance on monitors.  Also, restoration paint is not generally considered to be too accurate in most cases because color formulas have changed so much over the years. 

Having said that Tuscan Red is not a uniform color.  It drift over the years.  Most models are a little too brown, The Lionel ones appear too red.  Similar to the color on my Lionel N5c.  The PRR Freight Car Brown is almost pink in hue.  I'll have to repaint what was otherwise an excellent model of the prototype.

Not knowing what Lionel's internal process is, I can't speak to that.  However, when I have done special projects with them through TCA they used the Pantone color system.  Not sure what the closest to Tuscan Red is in that system.

It is interesting because they have come the closest to getting Amtrak colors correct on their 21" cars per the Amtrak official color guide.  Go figure.

If the units are not visually pleasing to the OP I'd consider returning them.  It's not like they won't come out again down the road.

@GG1 4877 posted:

3rd Rail is still putting out the highest quality product available in the 3 rail market and won't be going anywhere soon.  Quality costs a little more, but it's worth it for the level of thought, QC and customer service.

Agreed.  By major manufacturer, I am referring to companies making a full line of products spanning starter sets to traditional to detailed scale models.  This would have included K-Line back in the day.  I do appreciate (and buy) 3rd Rail/Golden Gate Depot products as well as Atlas O. 

@Arthur P. Bloom posted:

Premise #1: They are toys.

Premise #2: They are expensive toys.

Premise #3: Even the buyers of toys, and expensive ones, deserve accuracy.

Premise #4: It takes just as much effort to get it wrong as it does to get it right. We can forgive (and probably not even perceive) paint that is a few ångströms off, but those examples in this thread are horrendous mistakes.

Premise #5: In this electronic age, I am sure that there must be systems that can scan, digitize, assign codes, and reproduce any color in creation. I can take a paint chip or a piece of wallpaper to my local hardware guys, who are not rocket surgeons, and I can get paint that is absolutely spot on.  They have a scanner and mixer that does this accurately every time.  Lionel has more money than I do, so I would expect that they can do it, and better, too.

I wish I could give you 10,000 "likes" for this post.  This is absolutely spot on, especially #4.  I'm had a very successful career adhering to just this premise. 

George

#*$&! I ordered a set.

"I wish I could give you 10,000 'likes' for this post. "

Aw, shucks.

Mine hasn’t arrived yet at my dealer. Has anyone else received theirs? I’m hoping (foolishly) that not all of them have incorrect colors.

I'm really not that picky when it comes to modeling details, but paint is the one thing I am picky about.

All of Lionel's PRR steam offerings since ~2013 have had 'eye-sore colors'. The boiling point of this was the H10's from two years ago which had way too silver smokeboxes and way too orange cab roof/ tender decks. Add in the mishap with the N&W J's from last year and it makes me concerned about pre-ordering engines in the future.

Now, some will argue that the PRR did have the silver/orangey-red colors on their engines; however I go off of what I have seen with my own eyes... the PRR historical collection at RRMPA. Specifically, the engines inside (1223, 7002, and 5741) that have dark graphite smokeboxes and the proper tuscan red cab roof/ tender decks. These colors could be seen on all the Lionel PRR releases through around ~2012.

IMO the bright paint colors make the trains look cheap (regardless if you consider it a model or a toy), especially the H10. The H10's bell and whistle looked especially cheap as they were painted yellow (not a brass-y color).

@WinstonB posted:

#*$&! I ordered a set.

Well, I did too.  But I'm not paying for this outrageous type of mistake.      

In what alternate universe is this type of careless mistake acceptable?  This is just failure to focus on Lionel's part.

George

I sorta pre ordered these, I just told my dealer to put me down for a set, now that I see they are wrong I'm just not gonna get them,  I even ordered an e7b unit from the 2nd catalog, but that probably won't match either. Guess ill have to cancel it now.

My Tuscan PRR PA-1's showed up in orange a few years ago, and I sent them back to the dealer.  Dealers are getting screwed too, and they should complain to Lionel. As alluded to above, this is an ongoing issue.

@GG1 4877 posted:

The internet is not a great source for color matching as photographs vary based on type of camera, sensor type or film, color balance, time of day, and any color balance on monitors.  Also, restoration paint is not generally considered to be too accurate in most cases because color formulas have changed so much over the years.

Having said that Tuscan Red is not a uniform color.  It drift over the years.  Most models are a little too brown, The Lionel ones appear too red.  Similar to the color on my Lionel N5c.  The PRR Freight Car Brown is almost pink in hue.  I'll have to repaint what was otherwise an excellent model of the prototype.

Not knowing what Lionel's internal process is, I can't speak to that.  However, when I have done special projects with them through TCA they used the Pantone color system.  Not sure what the closest to Tuscan Red is in that system.

It is interesting because they have come the closest to getting Amtrak colors correct on their 21" cars per the Amtrak official color guide.  Go figure.

If the units are not visually pleasing to the OP I'd consider returning them.  It's not like they won't come out again down the road.

Aren't these the units Mr Levine owns? So the color should match his units. Do these Lionels do so?

An image link

https://images.app.goo.gl/8jT6c6GsgyRVGR17A

Now I have a problem....

I just pre ordered a seven car consist of the NYC Southwestern Limited, the two tone grey 21-inch cars.  After seeing this post and another that showed NYC E7's with two tone grey that wasn't even close to correct, what do you think my chances are of receiving the NYC passenger train with the correct two-tone grey paint???  I am guessing "zero".

I know that Lionel makes errors of all kinds with their engines, but thought that with a relatively unsophisticated piece of rolling stock, what could go wrong?

If they paint the cars the same greys as the E7's, the cars will also be wrong.  If they correct the paint for the cars, people will gripe that the cars don't match the locomotives.........

With this PRR paint error and the NYC "E" unit paint colors error, I now believe I should cancel my order for the cars.....

(The cars are scheduled for June 2021, so Lionel has plenty of time to correct this (or confirm the correct colors) IF THEY WANT TO.)

I may be wrong but the photos on the net say it has been repainted from the original colors they were painted.

today,?  Just a guess.

The quality issue at Lionel has gone long enough now. The one and only person that is totally responsible for this mess is sitting at the very top. It’s time for H. H to go.