Weird paint problem while bashing a BANG

quote:

I don't know what type of paint is on a BANG, but it does not like this primer. Not sure there is a fix.

The fix is to strip ALL of the primer/paint off and start with the bare plastic after washing the bare plastic with soap and water.

quote:

The fix is to strip ALL of the primer/paint off and start with the bare plastic after washing the bare plastic with soap and water.

That would be my recommendation as well, particularly since paint formulas used by the manufacturers are always subject to change. Besides, the manufacturer's original paint is essentially ruined by any additional coats applied over it, and every additional coat tends to obscure more and more of the fine details.

Yes, that may be the solution, although I have had plastic shells that were ruined by stripper, even the "benign" ones. And, given that over a dozen BEEPS tolerated the primer with no problems, and had gone ahead and tried it this time.

Well, live and learn.

By the way, the BANG shell is much thinner than those on a BEEP and this means it is not quite as condusive to bashing: probably is better just to scratchbuild new shells for it. But the chassis is just perfect for bashing: a short two-truck, four-axle two-motor spur-gear drive metal chassis with rather low profile electronics and easy to relocate led lights.

Maybe the Rustoleum company has some answers.

It could be that they were forced to change their formulation because of EPA regulations.

And if their rpoduct is the same, they probably already know specifically what surface would cause their paint to fail to cure.

--Joe

Lee,
I tried the rustoleum and I'll never use it again.All I had was fish eye and sticky paint.

I didn't care much for the texture of the paint either but that was just me.

I've got good results with the Plasti-Coat stuff(Lowes) and they claim it works great on plastic , metal and glass so far they're right.

Get a rag and soak it with lacquer thinner give the shell a quick wipe and follow it just as quick with the dry rag that'll get the sticky off.Then use a rag just moistened and that should get RMT's paint off . Move quickly and don't let the thinner stand any length of time.

You may also want to have a tooth brush handy for the nooks and cranneys

David

you'll likely have better results if you use paint meant for plastic models, such as either Testors or Floquil in a can.

I strip old paint off with cheap brake fluid. Works overnight and gives you a clean start.

I have only done one car, but for all my spray painting, I have had much better results as well as drying time, with Krylon.

Thanks for the comments.

I have never owned an air brush. I have a paint sprayer & compressor and used to repaint my own project cars (by which I mean, like Austin healeys and Camaros, not rolling stock) but I don't use that on model trains. Had no problems with spray cans so far, except this one time on the BANG. I do not use Testors spray cans (but do use their brush on paint) or Floquil paints brush-on or otherwise at all: they just don't work for me.

Not sure whether Rustoleum has changed its formula recently, but the spray can I used on the BANG had just hours before successfully primed a Williams Trainmaster, and a BEEP two weeks before, both with no problems.

I've used Rustoleum primer for years on all manner of projects from cars to trains to scratchbuilt model boats and I like the results - but you do have to sand it lightly afterward, which can be a problem on locos with vents/screens, etc. I like it most because I have never had a problem using ANY paint over it, once it has been given three or four nights to dry and harden.

Rustoleum paint does tend to fisheye on a lot of unprimed surfaces and so I never use it unless over their primer. In cases where I am going directly over other paint I have found Krylon to have the least propensity to fisheye, particularly if sprayed "a bit dry" (from six to eight inches farther away than normal). I also like a store brand flat and satin black from Ace Hardware for steam locos, etc.

What I mostly use on bashed model locos is Rustoleum primer followed by Krylon or a Duplicolor (made for auto touch up). However, I do a lot of UP Armour Yellow and Gray since most everything I bash or build ends up UP, and Rustoleums yellow stripping paint (for marking parking lots) is dead on for Armor Yellow: you have to hold the can upside down, the way it is made, but I have probably a dozen bashed or scratchbuilt locos painted with that paint.

I sympathize. I've heard that Tide detergent and water will take off many/most kinds of model paint if you submerge
it for 2 - 3 weeks. But Rustoleum? Not sure. I use their products, too. My primer of choice is usually the cheap kind
from the dollar-store.

I repainted an Atlas RS-1 from C&EI to GM&O a few years ago, and thankfully I gray-primed it (no stripping), because everywhere
that the primer had not covered well (a few nooks and crannies) the Atlas paint severely reacted with the Krylon "Pimiento"
color (perfect match for faded GM&O red). Crinkles all over the place. It did eventually dry in those spots, I sanded them, and I continued.

Well, I guess its not just the bangs that get strange paint on them. I guess with all the international assembly and painting we often won't know what to expect as far as what the paint is. I'm going to try the tide and 2-3 weeks trick and see if it works.

Thanks

A dusting of powdered cornstarch will take the sticky out of sticky non drying spraypaint. It will lighten the color though.

Most primers no matter what brand are sandable so this means the formula is thicker than the average paint. Primer takes a lot more time and care when mixing. The safest way is to have your project clean and clear coat it first to put a barrier between the primer and plastic and then take your can of primer and sit it in a hot bowl of water(not boiling) for 15 minutes then shake and mix the can for at least 3 to 5 minutes. Before you start priming your project the can needs to be sprayed off for 5 seconds to get any unmixed primer out of the nozzle and tube from the last time you used it. Then take a rag and wipe the nozzle good and clean so it wont be spitting on you project. If you do this that primer will lay down as smooth as glass and be dry to the touch in less than an hour. The fish eyes dont usually come from reacting to plastic but rather the primer hasnt been mixed enough and the heat from the hot water will thin the primer and make it lay down smoother but be careful because the primer will now run easier.
Thomas

The issue isn't with the primer. It's with the paint underneath. The auto primer appears to be lacquer based. I'm guessing the BANG was painted with an enamel? The solvents in the primer reacted with the probably not fully cured enamel and caused it to soften. The fisheye effect is probably the contamination from the trapped solvents in the enamel that were released by the more aggressive solvents in the lacquer.

You need to either remove the old paint or apply some kind of barrier coating to seal off the two. The issue with the barrier is finding something that also won't react with the base coat. That's why stripping is your best bet.

Lee, aside from model trains I mess with plastic models too and some of those are ebay finds of built kits that aren't out anymore. I've used Purple power cleaner, or castrol super clean, to strip off old paint with good results...and it won't hurt plastic. Let it soak for a day or two and use an old toothbrush to get into the nooks and crannies. As for my favorite primer, I use dupli-color primer seal coat...great barrier for lacquer and also for enamel, and use dupli-color self etching primer on the stripped diecast vehicles, one of which is a started On30{yeah, wrong scale for here- I know} mack rail bus for the bachmann railbus and trailer I have. 

edit- I'll add I'll never again use any ace or krylon brand of rattlecan spray on a model after the last two wrinked messes they left me with...both were cleaned and prepped as always but they lifted on me.

I eventually just scrapped the body and used the chassis for parts: that was a year ago.  I will have to try the Purple cleaner though - had not thought of that.  I'm rather careful now to test before I spray.  Lately I have had good result not using a primer before. 

I was late to this party but had hoped it might help anyway. For me and the model trucks{1/25th scale} I have to use a primer when I frequently use lacquer paint which would eat up the plastic...the Tamiya water based lacquer spray is plastic friendly from my experience so far, but I'm used to using primer anyway-{creature of habit-hahaha}. Do you use an AB or are you a rattle can person....or both?

The Walwart purple power cleaner is great stuff imho, and will strip off old, bad, model car chrome in 10min so it can be rechromed. If you ever need to strip any resin parts "do not" use brake fluid as it will render your cast resin mack MC into a wet noodle...just trust me on that one! 

Many people do not pay attention to the humidity or temp when painting and get poor results. Never paint when humidity is above around 65% max. Do not paint when the temp is less than around 50 or more than 80. If you paint on rainy days your paint likely will never dry due to humidity. I keep a humidity gauge and temp gauge around for painting. These are my own rules, your experience may differ. But keep in mind auto paint shops don't paint on rainy or real humid days unless they have climate controlled shops.

Rob

Thanks for bringing this thread back to life. It's very informative and I've learned a lot before I make a big blunder. Thank you, Terry

Yes, this is particularly informative.  I'm learning a lot, which is what I love most about this forum.  I have problems only very rarely with paint, but when I do it is pretty disastrous.

I've primered over a lot of items that were painted in China. Most of the time it goes well, other times you have all kinds of paint reactions. I don't think it's as much that they use different paints, but maybe there's something in the "mix" to get a certain color, who knows?

Old paint can be tricky since you never know what it was.

I forgot the other media I've used with good success on stubborn paint over plastic...fume free{yeah right!}cold oven cleaner - though don't go doing this in the house cause it's not really fume free. Some things strip well and some fight to the bitter end....I'm a firm believer of strip it all down to bare plastic and start clean.

Oh, as a side note...the above mentioned strippers will also remove filler, so if your about to strip a scratched body or kitbash...be prepared to refill again.

I've just recently gotten back into model railroading since my 7yr old son has taken a liking to it, so the whole railroad colors thing, for me,has to relearned. I prefer to use my AB...air brush...for the control it gives...how many times have we grabbed a rattle can and had it nearly pour out when we pushed the button or the reverse when after 3 seconds the tip clogs...I still use them from time to time, but I've stayed away from anything but Tamiya and Testors spray cans for my models...they're pretty consistant - sadly, they don't do RR colors. 

Alright-  here's a questioon for the masses;

 what's your favorite medium/brand of paint?

...call it simple curiousity..

How'd I miss this one...just setting up the account still....you are correct sir, humidity can ruin a good paint job, though I've used it to my advantage when using flat paints - the added humidty has a dulling affect. When using glosses I'd never think of doing that when it rains unless I'm in the basement with the AB...the dehumidifier runs 365/24-7 down there.

Like "Vulcan" above, I've had some weird, and, luckily for me, uncommon paint problems stripping and trying to primer and repaint Chinese models, specifically

the Spec Cast 1/50 trucks as discussed in another thread.  I had to remove their

paint and my primer (and I use Wally World el cheapo rattle cans when I can get

it in an acceptable color...locally not as large a selection as there once was..and hadn't had a previous problem with their gray primer on or over any

surface)...and the paint on two Spec Cast trucks I did reacted as though they were

different formulas from each other.  Big problem was getting the factory lettering

off....as overspray of primer curdled.  Had to take trucks apart...not my intent.

 

plastic coat is good also dupi-color too..these paints you can get at your local autoparts stores..never ever use rustolem ..it as oil base to all there paints..if your spray lacqures or enamles  over the rustolem it will lift the rustolem..I've been using automotive paints on my trains since i paint cars for aliving for over 30 years....plus there are primers for plastics too

I'm not completely unconvinced that those who make paint have inhouse humidity issues when it's made, or that batch recipies aren't followed as well as could be, or that they use cheaper color carriers or thinners{rattle cans} to bring a better profit. My old neighbor worked for a place that made paint pigments...don't know for what kind of paint though...and he explained to me that paint is just clear carrier with very fine pigment color...ever seen an old can or bottle of paint that sat for a long time and separated - clear liquid on top and all the pigment was on the bottom of the can/bottle until you remixed it?

Age is a factor..I;ve seen old paint go bad tooeven in rattle cans.. even with the new paints that are being made today..I know whats involved in mixing paint colors..NAPA that sells paint let me mix my own paints..saved them time when there bizzy and also give me a discount too...I can mix any paint system that is out there..

Not to steer this more towards cars, but I'm an amateur car buff in my other hobby.  For years I never had luck with spray paints, but in time have come to really appreciate them, and I think making sure I had completely contaminent free, cured, deglossed or etched substaits was the biggest part of me getting different results

The dash metal is a rattle can laquer prepped with sanding and naval jelly for etching, and the console and homemade FRP package tray are platic paints prepped with laquer thinner wipe downs and dried thoroughly.  Although the console could have been painted in better lighting    Getting the right cleaning and prep for different surfaces has sometimes been a challenge for me (occasionally missing the smallest amout of grime or oil invisible to the naked eye), but along with low humidity and succesive light coats I've become partial to the ease of spray can paint.  It's amazing what just the oil from your skin will do to highly volatile paint aderence though.

 

By the way Lee, what is "bashing"?

"Bashing" is taking a given piece and creating something different with it....I'll give you two examples;

1} take an 0-4-0 steam engine and bash it into a 2-4-4 forney
2} take, say, a '68 mustang ragtop and bash it into a '68 cougar ragtop by swapping out the body and interior panels...always wanted to do that as there never was an oem pre '69 cougar ragtop....miss my '70 cougar....btw-nice stang.   

Thanks BR!  I saw the pic of Lee's layout running a scratch built "VEEP" and some "bashed" U.P. Beeps in another old thread, very cool stuff...from the layout to the trains.  I'm gonna have to look into this more.  I do like the idea of doing things differently.

 

Thanks for the compliment on the car...it's bashed in its own way (a period inline 6 with a modern 5spd, and front discs adapted from GM).  That would be one cool and unique cougar.  I've always liked the 1st gen cougars, especially the hood, nose and grill work.

-Lee, now ya went and did it...I owned a '67 coronet 440 4 dr with a poly 318..a good car!

 

-MTG, try a bash of your own...they're fun. The best part is that not only you like it, but others might too which just doubles the final effect. A word of caution my friend...once you start, you may never stop- lol.

As for cars...though my old avatar is gone{my own fault for not reading the fine print here} that '40 plymouth P10 of mine is going thru the very same thing...lockheed brakes being replaced with discs, the 3 speed non syncro trans outed for an auto and a hopped up flathead 6 from a newer chrysler{'52} is being shoehorned in. I love old cars and trains in any scale! 

I have successfully removed paint (ink?) from several BEEP loco shells using isopropyl alcohol (rubbing alcohol) available at phamacies, food stores, big box retailers...etc.  It's inexpensive and works fast...less than 1 hour.

 

Primer paints usually contain filler material to repair surface imperfections.  Unless you plan on sanding the entire model to achieve a smooth surface for the finish coat, applying a non-primer formula in a neutral color (gray) would be a better choice.

 

Matt

You are correct - it removes paint from BEEPS - at least where I have tried it, although I left it several hours to do the job.

 

But it failed on a BANG I tried. Nothing.  It would remove the lettering and such, but not the paint.  This is what is frustrating - you have no idea what you are facing each time. 

Matt, there are different types of primer out there. Sandable, sealing and etching....this is why I like dupli-color for they're variety. Sanding is the thicker version and meant for filling fine lines and cracks, sealing is just a protective barrier to keep paint incompatibility at bay and etching is for getting a good hold on bare metal. A good light coat is all that's needed - I used to hammer it on thinking more was better but found that to be overkill now in most cases.

When you paint a given subject now, once she's got a good coat do you go back 2-3 more times to make sure it's covered?...a good coat, imho, is 1-2 light dusting coats followed by one wet coat. 

I have given up on Rustolum  paint altogether.

I have no luck with it. Krylon around here has switched to the paint and primer spray.

Don't use it anymore either.

 

I have gotten my best results with ACE spray paint. it is cheaper, has the good spray tip and the has good pigment. the colors are nice and it dries fast.

 

I use it on all of my projects, plastics, metal, and large jobs too.

Mr. Willis:  While I see spray paint compatibilities will be a long war, I was wondering about these BEEPS and shorty RDC's, or other two truck items RMT might make.  I am assuming the two truck items are powered on one truck, so how difficult is it likely to be to either shorten or extend the frame on these to fabricate other critters, such as railbuses?  Metal frame? Plastic?

If both trucks are powered, (which I doubt) are they connected by a rod drive or

other means, that might make the length adjustment simple?  Also, I am guessing

(I have not looked closely at one) that the outside truck, bearings, etc. is a one

piece casting, in case you want to change the wheelbase and the outside to a

type of truck that was used, on, say, gas electrics?   Maybe two of the RDC's could be kitbashed into a scale length RDC-3 (with considerable work)?  I have been reluctant to do that with "collecible" AMT or Lionel RDC's.

 

Whoops..I just reread you first post, and see that these ARE two truck, metal chassis

items...I didn't see any in a show I walked through yesterday, to pick up and inspect.