3rd Rail E8 vs Lionel Legacy E8s? Sorry it has to be compared

RD posted:

Lionel Legacy  E8s have two motors Odyssey speed control and traction tires on each powered truck. 3RD rail I believe has one motor per powered unit  and I'm not sure about traction tires. 

I believe if you compare a single Lionel powered unit against a single 3rd rail powered unit for pulling power the Lionel comes out on top every time! 

I would challenge you to pop the shells off and take a look at the size and design of the motors and drive systems of both companies. 3rd rail is unquestionably superior and that is why they get my business for diesels. The two relatively tiny motors in the Lionel diesels don't get along well my scale 12+ car aluminum passenger trains. The 3rd rail diesels certainly have the best pulling power in their class (I cringe at the thought of even including Lionel and MTH in their class).

In addition, 3rd Rail's extensive road specific details and accurate paint schemes are top notch due to the incredible amount of research that goes into them. Does Lionel take the cake on sound? Of course they do. Legacy is miles ahead of everyone else. Yet, 3rd rail is getting better as their latest sound sets are not the older RS4 sounds that I believe were in their earlier diesels. Also, with diesels, one must consider running multiple engines in a lash up. The longer the lash up, the more realistic the sound (and pulling power) with 3rd rail diesels as each of their engines are powered with sound. With Lionel, you only get sound out of one engine and the joy of long lash ups is greatly diminished. As far as speed control goes, the latest speed control that 3rd Rail engines have is right their with the Odyssey 2 speed control.

Don't get me wrong, I'm big on Lionel products as they make up the majority of my train room. I have quite a few Legacy steamers; but when It comes to 3 rail O scale diesels, 3rd rail is the clear winner. Don't believe me? Buy one... you will soon find yourself selling off your legacy diesels in order to buy more from 3rd rail.

Jonathan,

Great photos.  I have the same K-Line model,I still love it's scheme with the large font  Pennsylvania.  It is a classic.  I agree with your comparison.   The K-Line engine has a little bit of the look of the Centipede to me.  Our 3rd Rail 5 stripe engine looks spot on.

Norm

The K-Line model was excellent for its time Norm.  I love the slaved A-B units as they are just easier to operate an program.  If I weren't transitioning out of 3 rail for my PRR, I'd get an E7B dummy to put between them.

I might keep the Weavers since they are phase II paint and I can upgrade the motors and electronics in them.  

Originally quoted by RD:
I believe if you compare a single Lionel powered unit against a single 3rd rail powered unit for pulling

power the Lionel comes out on top every time! RD

I will also state that My K-line [PRR Single & 5 Stripe] & Weavers will Kick A*** your Lionels in Pulling Power ! 4 Beats Two Any Day.

PUlling power in my opinion is very low priority, you can always add a second or third unit if the train is long.    Real RR grades are generally about 1.5%, there are exceptions of course.   we should our model grades in that range also.

But for running, a single motor 3Rd Rail unit will creep along so slowly, that you can barely see it moving.    The wonderful gear boxes with reduction gearing that takes advantage of the proper torque range for motor make these great for slow speed performance.    The 2 motor locos I have seen all seem to run like slot cars.   They are great at high speed, but stall and balk at any kind of slow prototypical speeds.

Has anybody noticed that the original poster, as never returned to this "discussion", after two pages of comments, facts, and photos????

Hot Water posted:

Has anybody noticed that the original poster, as never returned to this "discussion", after two pages of comments, facts, and photos????

Not sure that's relevant.  Not everyone lives on the forum 24/7.  The question he asked was not out of place IMO and perhaps he's reading along like so many.

I picked up a set of legacy seaboard e9 AA's.  I must say, I am very impressed with the details.  Even though the pilots aren't fixed, they are on par with 3rd rail.

prrjim posted:

PUlling power in my opinion is very low priority, you can always add a second or third unit if the train is long.    Real RR grades are generally about 1.5%, there are exceptions of course.   we should our model grades in that range also.

But for running, a single motor 3Rd Rail unit will creep along so slowly, that you can barely see it moving.    The wonderful gear boxes with reduction gearing that takes advantage of the proper torque range for motor make these great for slow speed performance.    The 2 motor locos I have seen all seem to run like slot cars.   They are great at high speed, but stall and balk at any kind of slow prototypical speeds.

I suspect we will never meet for a slow speed contest but if you have an MTH PS2 or PS3 engine let me suggest running your 3rd Rail engine next to the MTH engine for comparable speed. I will likewise run my K-Line E8s with ERR Cruise and we can maybe compare speeds. Who knows, maybe the 3rd rail engines run slower than MTH's 1 scale MPH. 

When I did this with the Lionel Vision Hudson vs a K-Line Hudson with an ERR Cruise M and an MTH PS2 Hudson. The same transformer taps powered all three mainlines. The K-Line Hudson ran at 3 MPH at step 1. The Vision Hudson ran marginally faster than the MTH Hudson when set at speed 1. Sorry Legacy lovers. YMMV.

Pete

I have lots of MTH locos and none of them run decent until around 3 to 4 smph. They may run at one speed step but not well. The 3rd Rail locos all run well at the one speed step

Like I said YMMV. I have seen them stutter a bit at startup but mine will run smoothly at 1 MPH when underway.

How much time did the E8s spend at 1 MPH. A couple of seconds??

Pete

I'll run em around the layout at ss1. They run like butta!!! None of my MTH locos run worth a sh** at ss1

If I was an MTH repair guy I wouldn't be yelling that out to the world. Poor running at slow speed is usually the result of a mechanical problem.

Anyway I only brought MTH  into the discussion as a way to compare slow speed performance to other other brands when a direct head to head comparison is not possible.

Pete

That's common knowledge norton

At the end of the day the best measure of any E or F unit for me is the nose appearance.  The Legacy E9s do not in my opinion pass the nose test.  At that point it doesn't matter what command, sound or drive system it has. The nose of an F or E unit is one of the hardest things to capture accurately.  3rd Rail has come the closest with Atlas being a close 2nd. 

Here are some random Legacy units pulled from the internet.  The biggest thing that jumps out at me is the low "cheeks" on the side of the nose and the angled centerline down the nose.  That would be great on a B&O EA, but not at all correct for other E units.

However, having said that, we all have different grading criteria for the locomotives we operate and love.  I know for some the sounds matter the most, for others the command system, price, or the pulling capacity.  I don't judge that as I don't expect everyone to model the way I do.

Reservations do close after the weekend on 3rd Rail E8s, so if you are looking that locomotive as a viable option, you should get your order in soon.  Legacy E9s seem to be more readily available. 

I will simply say for pulling that two powered 3rd Rail E8s pulled 16 aluminum 21" scale cars on my layout without issue through slightly less than 072 curves.  The sleepers need all new lubrication on the axles so they had lots of drag.  If I added more cars, they would have been connected to the front of the lead locomotive too.  

Hot Water - of course I'm reading all these responses duh. That was a pretty silly thing to mention. I ended up purchasing four 3rd rail E8s (2 Santa Fe and 2 PRRG) and now the train budget is broke lol 

for what it's worth the MTH Santa Fe e8 set is also very tempting 

TakeTheATrain posted:

Hot Water - of course I'm reading all these responses duh. That was a pretty silly thing to mention. I ended up purchasing four 3rd rail E8s (2 Santa Fe and 2 PRRG) and now the train budget is broke lol 

for what it's worth the MTH Santa Fe e8 set is also very tempting 

Hell, I need the know where you bought them.  I'm still looking for a few.

TakeTheATrain posted:

Hot Water - of course I'm reading all these responses duh. That was a pretty silly thing to mention. I ended up purchasing four 3rd rail E8s (2 Santa Fe and 2 PRRG) and now the train budget is broke lol 

for what it's worth the MTH Santa Fe e8 set is also very tempting 

I hope you are pleased with your purchases when they arrive.  I have a set of ATSF units coming as well in the second run. 

Budkole posted:

TakeTheATrain posted:

Hot Water - of course I'm reading all these responses duh. That was a pretty silly thing to mention. I ended up purchasing four 3rd rail E8s (2 Santa Fe and 2 PRRG) and now the train budget is broke lol 

for what it's worth the MTH Santa Fe e8 set is also very tempting 

Hell, I need the know where you bought them.  I'm still looking for a few.

There is still time to order them direct at www.3rdrail.com

GG1 4877 posted:

Budkole posted:

TakeTheATrain posted:

Hot Water - of course I'm reading all these responses duh. That was a pretty silly thing to mention. I ended up purchasing four 3rd rail E8s (2 Santa Fe and 2 PRRG) and now the train budget is broke lol 

for what it's worth the MTH Santa Fe e8 set is also very tempting 

Hell, I need the know where you bought them.  I'm still looking for a few.

There is still time to order them direct at www.3rdrail.com

Jonathan,

I was unable to order the Wabash E8s.  Is it too late?  Or are they being done?

George diSanti

George diSanti posted:

GG1 4877 posted:

Budkole posted:

TakeTheATrain posted:

Hot Water - of course I'm reading all these responses duh. That was a pretty silly thing to mention. I ended up purchasing four 3rd rail E8s (2 Santa Fe and 2 PRRG) and now the train budget is broke lol 

for what it's worth the MTH Santa Fe e8 set is also very tempting 

Hell, I need the know where you bought them.  I'm still looking for a few.

There is still time to order them direct at www.3rdrail.com

Jonathan,

I was unable to order the Wabash E8s.  Is it too late?  Or are they being done?

George diSanti

George,

I believe I owe you an apology.  The orders must have closed after the 4th.  I don't remember is Wabash is in the 2nd run or not, but I would send an email to Scott.  He's in China now working through details for the PA tooling.  I'm sure he'll respond now though as this is their AM and he is working now with the design team in Asia.  You might consider a Wabash PA if the E8s are not available at this point? 

Good Luck!

Laidoffsick posted:

irish rifle posted:

My Lionel E8s are superb. Not sure if the GGD E8s have flanged wheels. If they do, I would not buy any, as GGD diesel engines with those wheels have caused operating issues for me. 

???????

Lionel engines have flanged wheels. Do you mean the center axles?

I mean the center wheel of each axle. None of the other manufacturers make them this way. 

irish rifle posted:

Laidoffsick posted:

irish rifle posted:

My Lionel E8s are superb. Not sure if the GGD E8s have flanged wheels. If they do, I would not buy any, as GGD diesel engines with those wheels have caused operating issues for me. 

???????

Lionel engines have flanged wheels. Do you mean the center axles?

I mean the center wheel of each axle. None of the other manufacturers make them this way. 

In my opinion, it's a darned good thing they don't! MTH makes their 3-axle trucks with the inside wheels without flanges, and I consider THAT a problem also, at least for those of us with 072 or larger curves.

The Sunset/3rd Rail diesel models have flanges on all the wheel sets, and unless you are trying to operate these models on 031 or 027 curves, then you have purchased the wrong product. 

To Be Accurate:

3R E8s, have blind center drivers. This is necessary to negotiate 054 curves. It does not cause any tracking or performance issues that we are aware of. Each axle is supported by a miniature ball bearing in the journal. This is a tight fit so the axles do not shift side to side very much. The center driver needs to be blind to prevent binding in curves. We did this on the SD79, E89 projects without issues.

Regards, Scott Mann

Thanks for the helpful clarification. The issue I had was with an EMD E7, where the center wheels of the trucks were flanged.  

irish rifle posted:

Thanks for the helpful clarification. The issue I had was with an EMD E7, where the center wheels of the trucks were flanged.  

Who was the manufacturer of THAT model?

3rd Rail.

Rocky Mountaineer posted:

There really is no comparison.  With the Lionel E8's for the $930 MSRP, you'll get just one powered unit and one dummy unit, whereas 3rd Rail gives you two beautifully-detailed, powered units for roughly $650-ish each.  The Lionel models may have incrementally better sounds (due to Legacy Railsounds which is always top-notch).  But aside from that benefit, I much prefer the performance we're gonna see from 3rd Rail's models.

David 

For those that may be interested,

So, I was wondering about the speakers in the 3rd rail E units.  I decided to try a different 3w 8ohm speaker with a Neodymium motor assembly.  Same dimension, literally drop in, plug and play.  It made a big difference in clarity and depth.  

I put the AA's side by side, one with original speaker, the other with the new one.  Had my wife listen to them one at a time.  I asked, which one sounds better...her answer,"you know which one sounds better, why are you asking me".  

Long story short, the newer speaker sounds better.

***DISCLAIMER, this is just myself and my wifes opinion of the sound.  If you try this, you may not feel the same way***

http://a.co/ik0d6R0

http://www.visaton.com/en/indu...hirmt/sc5_9nd_8.html

Hot Water posted:

irish rifle posted:

Thanks for the helpful clarification. The issue I had was with an EMD E7, where the center wheels of the trucks were flanged.  

Who was the manufacturer of THAT model?

The 3rd Rail E7s had a flanged center axle and now all the new ones have the blind axle. I wish Scott would stop worrying about 054 curves with these big engines. The blind axle looks HORRIBLE, bearing or not.... I don't understand why it's advertised as all axles powered... what good is the axle if the wheels are not on the rail. Yes "technically" it is powerd by definition, but a blind axle only benefits the guy who wants to run his big *ss engine on a little bitty curve!  

I also like the flanged center...BIG Curves!

Budkole posted:

For those that may be interested,

So, I was wondering about the speakers in the 3rd rail E units.  I decided to try a different 3w 8ohm speaker with a Neodymium motor assembly.  Same dimension, literally drop in, plug and play.  It made a big difference in clarity and depth.

I've been down this very same road and did not find "drop in" replacement speakers. You clearly have; mind telling us where you got them from?

Hancock52 posted:

Budkole posted:

For those that may be interested,

So, I was wondering about the speakers in the 3rd rail E units.  I decided to try a different 3w 8ohm speaker with a Neodymium motor assembly.  Same dimension, literally drop in, plug and play.  It made a big difference in clarity and depth.

I've been down this very same road and did not find "drop in" replacement speakers. You clearly have; mind telling us where you got them from?

Sure, not sure if its against the rules to post it from a non supporting vendor.  Ill send you the link.  Check your email

Post the link, nobody cares

How bout Sunset vs Atlas 

Matt Makens posted:

Post the link, nobody cares

I put the link in my original post.

Budkole posted:

Matt Makens posted:

Post the link, nobody cares

I put the link in my original post.

Thanks for that. I have ordered a couple to try out as replacements in 3rd Rail diesels.

I've got a couple in my parts inventory I'll swap em out when I get the pilots

Please explain how the drive trains differ between the Lionel E8 and and the 3RD rail E8. I have read in the past that the 3RD Rail drive train used a belt system that was inferior to the Lionel / MTH drive train system..

Thanks,

Richard

Richard Gonzales posted:

Please explain how the drive trains differ between the Lionel E8 and and the 3RD rail E8. I have read in the past that the 3RD Rail drive train used a belt system that was inferior to the Lionel / MTH drive train system..

Thanks,

Richard

 

No, the Sunset/3rd Rail designed drive train, in their diesel models, consists of one LARGE single DC motor, which drives a large diameter cog pulley. That large cogged pulley, supports/drives a fabric reinforced cog belt (similar to the camshaft drive cog belt of many automobile  engines), which drives the smaller cog pulley on the truck drive shaft. The truck drive shaft runs through the model fuel tank, and thus is a straight drive for each truck assembly.

Thus, the Sunset/3rd Rail systems offers exceptional slow speed, and is superior to either Lionel or MTH diesel "China Drive" systems.

Hot Water posted:

.......Thus, the Sunset/3rd Rail systems offers exceptional slow speed, and is superior to either Lionel or MTH diesel "China Drive" systems.

Could you please post a close-up video of your 3rd Rail diesel .... illustrating its slow speed operation?

Thanks