3rd Rail F7's - Santa Fe Warbonnets

Yes, the dynamic brake hatch was placed backwards in a rush to get some pictures before light faded.  I discovered it when making weight and draw bar measurements, but too late to reshoot.

 

Today, with not much time available, I made some preliminary measurements with the four powered units in a train lash-up using a Legacy remote.  I used  a Micromark dynamic scale to measure drawbar loads that varied between 4.57 and 4.98 LBf.  I'm not entirely satisfied that everything is tuned right as I couldn't keep them synchronized.  I was hoping for 6LBf as that is what they will deliver as single units.

 

Also, the manual instructs setting them up as CAB1s, but I seemed to be able to run them under TMCC which adds the information icons. YMMV.

 

I can't use Kadee couplers outdoors because of the decoupling issues with ground heaving caused by roots, so I'm looking to install a close coupled drawbar between the F7s similar to the FT whiskers. 

 

Finally, to address the comments about 3 rail track.  I doubt anyone would be able to operate on this terrain using 2RS track.  Hi-Rail track is challenging enough, and I often wish I had G gauge.  One way I cope is with long consists where the center rail is seldom visible.  Avert your eyes from the track and focus on the sights, sound, smoke and sunlight.

Are the locomotives that far apart or is it the picture , looks like an inch and a half space , between bodies ?

Also looks like the side vent screen is loose and warped out, also the the lower headlite should be larger than the top one I believe on ATSF units.

As mentioned lift lugs on nose in wrong location , front coupler sticks out way to far. Lot of flaws for the $$$ in my humble opinion , but what do I know ....

It is probably just me , but that front coupler looks like UGHHH !Sticks out so far , it kills the beautiful look of such a classic loco.

You would think a short coil electro coupler would have been designed , looks like a cigar .,a non operating short coupler would be better looking . They sure got the stainless panels right .

It's an 1 1/2" between diaphragms out of the box. There are short dummy couplers enclosed in the box if you want to pull them in closer.

 

These units really need Kadees, which mine will get, along with 2R pilots, and body mounted side ladders.  

Doug,

 

  Beautiful engines !!!!!

 

Alex

Just spotted this thread and am really impressed with these units - Thanks Doug and Bill.

The photos look great.  I am anxiously awaiting my Pennsy units.  It is really a bonus that they "appear worthy of Proto-48".

 

Norm

Very surprised that the SF units have these obvious errors especially the nose with incorrect location of lift lugs and undersized mars light considering the big push for these models to have the SS paneling done correctly.

I received my units yesterday, and, yes, there are a few inconsistencies with the prototype, but:

• The Mars Light is the best available.
• The twin sealed beam headlight behind the bezel glass looks very good when the engine is running along the track.
• The decoration is excellent.  The compound curve of the warbonnet stripe is perfect.  A tip of the hat is due Jonathan (GG1 4877).
• They a very smooth runners.
• The cab interior is well-done.

On such a limited run - and especially in consideration of the variety of railroad names produced - it would have been impossible to produce units from every F7 Phase and match them to the road name at $600.  Those who demand absolute prototype fidelity should stop nit-picking and post photos of your own perfect layouts and perfect models. These units only cost $600 each.  Perfect fidelity brass units cost twice that, or more.  These are the best plastic-body F7's produced so far.

Tom, "only $600.00 each" for the average modeler, like me, is a substantial amount of money. Like I said before, I am a long time 3rd Rail customer, but in my opinion the obvious details like the lift rings and vent windows should have been done right for the money. Limited production,etc. should not be an excuse for "inconsistencies".

Just got mine today, this is our 1st 3rd Rail engine, very happy with it.  Here are a couple of the inside cab shots. Nick 

These units only cost $600 each.  Perfect fidelity brass units cost twice that, or more. These are the best plastic-body F7's produced so far.

 

Sorry, I have to disagree. $600 is a lot of money. Yes, Key units will cost three times that much, but Lionel got it right a decade ago and have the best O scale F3's except KEY brass and possible some P&D's.

 

I jumped in deep and bought 8 locos this round, spread between SFYB, SP and UP. The major issues I see are the lifting lugs on the SF's and the vent windows on all roads. The vent window is a pretty strange set-up and since it sits flush with the car body and is about 3/32nds thick the other glass is recessed much more than on my SS E-7's. In fact the E-7 cab side window arrangement is far superior to these F-7's. Not sure what SS was thinking, but most likely an issue with the builder. I'm trying to figure out how to modify or remove the silver vent trim without ruining the model. Haven't found the secret yet.  

 

The stainless side grills are very nice. Metal side grills are always an issue and maybe we need to find out what the HO guys did with the Athearn Genesis F units, as they had this same issue.....uneven shrinking between dissimilar materials.

 

Mine are all scale and there is 1/4"+ gap between the diaphragms when coupled, so I'll go to either a shorter shank KD (if they make it) or move the screwed on metal coupler stand further inboard. Shouldn't be hard to do and expect this is due to smaller radius requirements of 3R.

 

The gloss paint is really shiny and I don't know why SS didn't stick with the success of the E-7's satin or dull finish, the windows on the E-7's are almost flush and the edges are painted black making them look even thinner and the black appears to be a perimeter gasket which looks great. Lionel did this on their scale F-3's. So, I guess I'm wondering why something that was a success for SS in the past has to be re-invented on future models? Stick with what worked in the past and don't re-invent the wheel on each new offering.

 

I haven't run mine yet, but these are some very nice looking models in spite of most of the issues mentioned above. Most issues can be dealt with creating a model that will stand up with the best of the best. Being a 2Rer I'm used to making modifications to 3R trains so most of this isn't a big issue for me. But, the lifting lugs on the SF's is a real issue as I don't know how to raise them without creating paint issues and I won't do that and the flying Indian head on the "B" units sure looks odd. But, I'm a UP guy so I'll have to do some more research.

 

Butch

 

Butch,

Please post your UP version if you have time.  I'd like to see them.

 

Thanks!

I was about to expound on my theory that 3-railers are more picky about the small details than we 2-railers, and then Butch showed up.  Still,in balance, check out the rave reviews of this same model in DRGW Bumblebee colors.  Nobody there seems all that upset with lifting lugs, window wings, and gloss paint.

 

I get in a lot of trouble with this theory - my 2-rail friends get outraged when I even suggest that they are not as picky as those with a center rail and turtle couplers, but what the heck - it is supposed to be fun, not serious.

 

Opinion.

Hey Bob, you know me, I love details. Didn't mean to scuttle your expounding (don't think I used that correctly).  As far as being picky, 3Rer's have nothing on many of the 2Rers I know. We share a mutual friend named Greg who is the most detailed oriented modeler I know short of Gary Schrader. He has his KOH's models reworked and is reworking a PSC H-8 right now. He has some of the most correctly detailed models I've ever had the pleasure of seeing. So, no, I don't think the number of rails makes any difference if you're a nit picker and appreciate correct and complete detailing. Your hand built models are works of art and although they might not be up to current KOH's or KEY's standard of detail they are highly detailed models that are as correct as you can make them or care to make them. And you are absolutely right; it is a hobby and supposed to be fun.

 

355SR I will post some photos of my UP models tomorrow if no one beats me to it. They are very nice with the same vent problem (to me) and the grills will need some work, but all in all very beautiful models.

 

Butch

 

 

 

 

Just for the record - I have Greg's permission to post this photo.  Greg, for those of you who are not familiar with 2-rail O Scale, has one of the very best layouts, with models that are so accurate the only flaw you will find is the track gauge.  He is a consummate modeler.

 

There are a number of folks whotake 2-rail scalevery seriously - but I maintain that the average 2-railer is happy with models that lack such things as cut levers and underbody details.  I take great pains with my locomotives, but most do not even have backheads, or brake shoes, or even a connection between valve gear and the reverser.  Each of us makes choices - herewith:

 

 

Guys,  I make these models to please you all. I personally cannot be an expert in every road name, detail or prototype. But I try to absorb as much as I can and bring that knowledge into production.  The criticism we receive is all constructive and I bring it right back to the guys that make these models,  to help improve productions and stay in the game. There are many people behind the scenes that help us get details more right than wrong. We are blessed by their willingness to help.

 

Here are some issues that we all can review.

 

1. The grills: They didn't use enough glue. After shipping some are coming loose.  I am prepared a video from my repair staff that shows how you can easily pop them off and put more glue down to keep them down. We have lots of extra grills in case things go wrong. Of course if you are not into applying glue to a new model, we will accept shipping them back for repair as part of our Warranty.

https://youtu.be/takXoN4enAs

 

2. Lift Rings: The factory didn't follow our data and drawings. But removing them and putting new one's could possibly destroy the paint and decaling. The location of the lift rings came from the PRR design. They didn't notice that SF was different, and I wasn't there to catch it in time. We are getting new lift rings, prepainted, but still moving them is risky.

 

3. Window Vent: I reviewed our E7 cab window design and I will see if they can make a bunch of replacement cab windows that will fit the F7s. I agree, they look strange. It was probably one engineers idea to make it cleaner looking and easier to apply the window. I didn't feel it was so bad to ask them to change all of them at the end of production. But I will make windows for those that want to change them.

 

4. Glossy Paint: The higher the gloss, the more imperfections show up in the surface of the paint. When we put on a satin finish, it really flattens things out and hides imperfections. The models looked a little too glossy to me, but I know it is much easier to grab a can of Krylon MATTE Finish and in 2 minutes you have changed your model from gloss, to satin to matte to dull finish. You can't go more shiny as easily. And when I have asked the factory to change the sheen of our models in the past, they usually went too far into the dull finish and it was impossible to get back to a satin finish. So I let it be this time.

 

An incredible amount of work went into these models. 7 years of constant improvements in design and manufacturing have made a really nice model. I hope you agree.

 

The difference between Sunset Models and all the others is that we don't stop when the models are delivered. And if we need to produce some parts to correct something, it isn't a big deal, we just do it. We would want the same for our own purchases. We know you are passionate about your hobby, and we respect that. And recognizing that many of the heated arguments on these threads come from this common passion one should step back for a moment, and let others have their say. It's a great hobby, and we are really happy to be a part of it.

 

Onward...

 

Scott Mann

 

About Manufacturing: I had a very interesting conversation with a young man on a flight from Seoul. He was in charge of manufacturing QC for Google's smart phones. He said they would order 1M phones, but start them in small batches of 20K - 50K. They would find the flaws after releasing them into the market, and then feed that back in changes to production of the next batch. 3 or 4 batches later they could then run the entire production of 1M.

 

In model trains, you only get 1 shot, 1 run. That's it. So follow up parts are the way to go. Each project is a different animal, with a different set of challenges and surprises. If they did something right on the E7, that was 5 years ago. Many faces have changed or just gotten older, so stuff get's forgotten over time. That's my esplaination.  No excuses, just the way it is. And not just us, all the importers face these same challenges.

 

Cheers.  Scott

Thank you Scott for posting your comments.

You did a fantastic job on these and all your projects. Please, keep up the good work!!!

Erik

Scott there is no denying you are a really "stand up" guy who cares about customers and customer support. That is one of the most refreshing experiences dealing with SS/3rd Rail. Customer services if often touted but rarely given in todays world.

 

None of the comments stated were meant to hurt your feelings or be personal and I'm glad you didn't take them that way. You, your company and what you accomplish is appreciated by all of us in O gauge...at least the people I communicate with.

 

The items you acknowledged and the fixes you suggested are absolutely correct and I intend to do just that. The models are just too outstanding to let a few fixes stand in the way of ownership.

 

Thinking it through I'm sure you are dealing with numerous factories on numerous projects at any given time. I don't know how you stay up with it all and just hearing from you while your traveling exhausts me to think about it. Different culture, time zones, language among others barriers has to be brutal in getting what you want done accomplished.

 

I've said it before online and will say it again. If there is a problem with one of your models you'll make it right and always have. That is a character trait that is sadly missing in todays world. Thanks for being you.

 

Butch

I could not have said it any better Butch! 

 

Thanks Scott!

 

Joe

 

 

 

 

That's what I like about Scott.  He understands how to COMMUNICATE to the consumer.  I think all too often the other importers feel their customer is the dealer network, so that's where the communication might occur... because it's often non-existent to the consumer.

 

One thing is very clear... The challenges that importers face overseas today were probably never even imagined by the folks who made decisions to transfer production overseas years ago.  They all made it sound like plug-n-play... Shutting down one production line here and starting another over there.    Were things in life that easy.  But it sure looked good on paper!

 

Or if these issues were well-understood back then going in, shame on execs for sending production overseas in the first place.  I think what Scott describes takes an enormous amount of behind-the-scenes effort to manage, and the results have apparently paid off for his business model.  We get snippets of info from the other importers that allows us to draw our own conclusions, but we get the straight scoop from Scott.  And for that reason, I'm more inclined to give him a larger percentage of business in the future.

 

Thanks, Scott, for keeping it real.

 

David

Scott,  you are truly a unique asset to our hobby - Keep up the great work and may your efforts be greatly blessed! 

Technically, you are correct.  These are the best plastic-body F7's produced thus far, and it will be interesting to see the Atlas-O units whose ETA appears to range between Jan 2016 and June 2016.  That should be a good comparison.  

 

But $600 for a diesel is still a good chunk of change, so I think "only $600" sends the exact message that gives Lionel the impression is perfectly fine to put a $1K price-tag on the recent E8/E9 AA units, only one of which is powered.    And those units aren't even in the same league as 3rd Rail's F7 offering.

 

Speaking purely for myself (and perhaps a few others here)... Comparing any of this stuff to brass production is moot, but I see it being done more frequently as a way to illustrate how much of "a buy" the O-Gauge products are compared to pure scale brass products.  Atlas-O has made similar comparisons between their CZ cars and those produced by brass importers.  But those brass products are in such an untouchable price-point to begin with for my interests, the comparison is a non-starter.

 

David

But there is a comparison.  A plastic model can have detail almost impossible to achieve in brass at a reasonable cost.  The problem with plastic is the original dies are costly, and to make a profit, you have to sell more.  So far, we cannot reliably produce metal models to the same level of detail for the same price.

 

As to pricing - in a free market economy, a seller will set prices as high as possible within the obvious constraints - one is, will folks buy enough at that price to enable a profit?  I doubt Lionel will be setting prices higher just because Sunset has a nearly perfect $600 plastic F-7.  In fact, there appears to be some competition here for limited hobby dollars, and that drives prices down, not up.

 

Opinion.

I missed out on the FTs when they were first offered.  Then this past December, Scott announced a few were left that hadn't been picked up.  There was one blue/yellow SF FT-A with the whiskers and three SF FT-B red/silver warbonnets.  After some consternation, I decided on the FTA and one of the red/silver FT-Bs.  I sent in the money but didn't hear anything for two weeks.  When I called Shani in the office to inquire about the delay, she informed me that Scott was having one of the red warbonnets repainted in house for me to a whisker unit.  And that is the genesis of how I got those two matching FT units.

 

Talk about customer service.

 

 

There's nothing wrong with discussing the opportunities for improvement on these units.  They are very good overall, but there's no doubt that some improvements could be made. The only burr under my saddle is the tone of some of the posts.

 

Maybe I am more forgiving of failures to be perfect because I have run prototype F7's, some of which had leaky doors or roofs, overspray from painting the pilot silver, speed recorders that sounded like coffee grinders, air horns with ruptured diaphragms, mirrors with loose bolts that vibrated so badly that they were useless, and a side window elevator mechanism that broke and dropped my window glass deep down into the side panel, allowing me to take a 90 MPH ride on a 20 degree night beside an open window.  I had thought that EMD and Santa Fe were perfect before I hired out, and soon found out that having high standards and expectations was different from being nitpicky and expecting perfection, which would have been a good way to become a sour old Engineer.  These models should have had the lifting lugs in a different place on the nose, but Scott explained it and I'm not going to regret my purchase.  Others may differ from this opinion, but that's mine.

 

I'm not going to change the lifting lugs on the nose of my Santa Fe F7A, but I might take Scott up on his offer of an improved side window.  I am also not going to paint the front porthole bezel silver because I am not sufficiently skilled for such a precise and delicate touch-up.  But that's me.  And I'm not going to saw off the rear roof overhang on one end of the booster units.  They will look fine in action and very few would notice this when they are not moving.  Others may be irritated and make more changes or get rid of their units, for neither of which would I criticize them.  For me, though, when the engines are in use, the small flaws are not as noticeable, and I'm very impressed with the power and smoothness of the drive.

Tom. Hear, hear!!  Well said.  Have you seen what's been happening on my Grande post over on the 2RS sub forum?  Bill

Here are some up close and personal photos of my PRR 2 Rail models.  Overall, these turned out great.  I was a little surprised too by the glossy finish, but they did come out of the factory this way for real.  I see it as more of an opportunity to weather it at a later date.  The factory did a good job of matching the color and the location of the stripes with my FP7s of which you can see just a small portion of to the right of the B unit.  I need to find a way to photograph my F7A-F7B-FP7A consist so that the camera doesn't distort it.  I'm thinking telephoto from the other side of the train room. 

 

 

 

Forgot the other pleasant surprise.  Body mounted ladders!

Jonathan. 

 

Gorgeous!!  But, clearly not as gorgeous as my Grande F7's in my post over on the 2RS forum .  Thanks for the pix.

 

Yes, the body mounted ladders this time around!  Thanks, Scott.  Your listened.

 

Bill

Just watched the video and will pop the screens off my A's and pray to begeezus that true color paint will match Sunsets. Since it seems that no NP F units had unpainted screens. Will order the rest of the missing details from P&D tomorrow and  detail to my time frame. Hope I can find the correct winterization hatches, and exhaust deflectors.  Thanks Scott and the truly are better than I can build at this point in time. No mu hoses also.

Are you getting the grabs from PD too? It'd be nice if they are a drop-in.

Jonathan,

I sure would like to see your A-B-A.  Thinking about it makes me want to contact Scott about adding another A unit to my A-B.

I can't wait until I'll be able to open my set!

Norm

Were the MU hoses added after delivery?  I ask because this one doesn't have them:

 

 

 

But here is the same locomotive number WITH MU hoses:

 

 

But the plumbing is there, as is the MU socket.

 

Rusty

The MU hoses are in the baggie with the traction tires and extra screws. At least mine are, I have MU hoses for all 4 units.

The complexity of dealing with the many variations of "as delivered" F units AND the post-delivery modifications by the railroads seems mind boggling for a model maker like Scott when offering a model for multiple roads.

CONGRATS!!!!

I'd love to have a set myself. Very nice

Curious.... does anyone have a 'C' unit? I'm wondering if there's a C (47C, etc...) in the number boards...

My  NP f7's are 2 rail and there are no extra parts baggie or traction tires.

  Going to call P&D for the stuff those handrails and grabs on Santiagos CB&Q looked really good. They also have the winterization hatches. and sun visors. going to email Scott and see about the MU's and window fix also. Just ran them in last night and am very pleased 3 powered units will pull the 14 cars for the summer Northcoast with ease.   Thanx again Scott !!!!

P&D castings are the best!

 

Here are the measurements for the basic F-unit set, it may help in case anyone wants to install them:

 

 

 Below: nose grab

 

 

Below: side end

 

Below: side small door

Below: cab side door