All those collectable cars from years ago.

Hellgates and Horde Cars and Vapor Records, oh my! 

(though I will be honest, there is one version of the first Vapor car I wouldn't mind adding, but it's not ever really seen for sale)

-Dave

Hellgates and Horde Cars and Vapor Records, oh my! 

How funny is that, those are the exact cars I was talking about :-)

Mike Reagan and I were talking with Neil Young at the Lionel tent many Yorks ago when we were interruped by a fellow collector who asked Neil to autograph his car. Neil obliged and then said to us, the ones without my autograph are more valuable, theres less of them!

Lou N

I never cared for all those faux cars.

I have a friend who collected the club cars and the Toy Fair cars for years and spent a boatload of cash to do so. When he decided to sell them he found he couldn't give them away.

You can spell out  e b a y on here... nothing illegal about doing it.... yep,lionel took full advantage of the collector mentality back then.....I think it peaked in the 1980's when R.K, owned it.

Thought I was going to hit it big with the first Lionel Pop Up Christmas Store box car. Mine came from the store ($50 or $60) so there was no shipping carton. Apparently they could also have been ordered on line and shipped in a cardboard mailer and those in sealed never opened condition were barely getting $8 on eBay before last Christmas!

Way back in the first half of the 1970's, Lionel made some variations of the Cracker Jacks billboard reefer. Some cars were carmel colored, and others were white. There were also two variations of the electrocal.
One had a white boarder, the other didn't.  One variation was supposed to be worth a substantial premium.

My brother had an opportunity to purchase several of the "rare" cars at the normal street price. He did, and wound up sitting on the cars for years when nobody really wanted them, even at the normal price.

Then there was the time in the 1980's when someone had me pick up a mint car from a local hobby shop at an inflated price. The person assured me that they had checked around, and the price was good. Shortly thereafter I ran across some of the same cars in a toy store at the original street price. I purchased a couple, figuring I'd flip them for a quick buck. Once again, nobody wanted them.

Between those two events, I finally learned not to try to turn a quick buck on newly made "rare" Lionel trains.

I had purchased one of each of those cars for myself, as well as many other modern era items. But the idea of buying newly made Lionel stuff for resale or as an investment was not for me.

Lionel is not alone in the so called "Collectable car" thing.  LGB did the same thing with Coca Cola, Burger King and others.  Personally I never cared for collectables, whether trains or anything else.  I don't like clutter.  And that's what I see in having shelves full of collectable items displayed throughout the house.  And as we have seen, collectables are not always what the title says they are supposed to be.  

To clarify, I don't judge anyone else for collecting anything they would like to have.  It's just not my cup of tea.  

C W Burfle posted:

Way back in the first half of the 1970's, Lionel made some variations of the Cracker Jacks billboard reefer. Some cars were carmel colored, and others were white. There were also two variations of the electrocal.
One had a white boarder, the other didn't.  One variation was supposed to be worth a substantial premium.

My brother had an opportunity to purchase several of the "rare" cars at the normal street price. He did, and wound up sitting on the cars for years when nobody really wanted them, even at the normal price.

Then there was the time in the 1980's when someone had me pick up a mint car from a local hobby shop at an inflated price. The person assured me that they had checked around, and the price was good. Shortly thereafter I ran across some of the same cars in a toy store at the original street price. I purchased a couple, figuring I'd flip them for a quick buck. Once again, nobody wanted them.

Between those two events, I finally learned not to try to turn a quick buck on newly made "rare" Lionel trains.

I had purchased one of each of those cars for myself, as well as many other modern era items. But the idea of buying newly made Lionel stuff for resale or as an investment was not for me.

C.W.~

Do you remember when Lionel was making a silver boxcar (not sure of roadname) and people were soaking them in Rit yellow die to make a rare gold variation?  And there was another car (forgot which one) that was a rare white letter variation because they were soaked in bleach?

Ah yes, the 1980's!

Lou N

Do you remember when Lionel was making a silver boxcar (not sure of roadname) and people were soaking them in Rit yellow die to make a rare gold variation?  And there was another car (forgot which one) that was a rare white letter variation because they were soaked in bleach?

Yes I do. There were articles covering the fraud in some of the Greenberg guides (full size) and the TCA put out a pocket guide that was sent to all members.

Sadly, I guess that any time interest drives the price of collectables high enough, there are criminals ready to defraud people and cash in.

I see lots of odd ball stuff offered on EBay and elsewhere with claims that the items are factory samples or Madison Hardware creations. I'd be surprised to learn that any of them are legitimate.

>>>>Do you remember when Lionel was making a silver boxcar (not sure of roadname) and people were soaking them in Rit yellow die to make a rare gold variation?  And there was another car (forgot which one) that was a rare white letter variation because they were soaked in bleach?<<<

During the MPC era  Lionel employees were known to mess up RS , toss them, dumpster dive behind the plant after work and then sell the misfits at train shows as rare factory errors....

Joe

C W Burfle posted:

Do you remember when Lionel was making a silver boxcar (not sure of roadname) and people were soaking them in Rit yellow die to make a rare gold variation?  And there was another car (forgot which one) that was a rare white letter variation because they were soaked in bleach?

Yes I do. There were articles covering the fraud in some of the Greenberg guides (full size) and the TCA put out a pocket guide that was sent to all members.

Sadly, I guess that any time interest drives the price of collectables high enough, there are criminals ready to defraud people and cash in.

I see lots of odd ball stuff offered on EBay and elsewhere with claims that the items are factory samples or Madison Hardware creations. I'd be surprised to learn that any of them are legitimate.

I worked at Spark's Hobby Shop (Cleveland) in the mid 60's.  Slot race had taken over.  Many train manufacturers sacrificed their train lines to make slot race sets.  Even brass O scale Kemtron made high end brass race car chassis.  We couldn't build display cabinets fast enough.  Tru-scale roadbed and 6464 boxcars from the 50's just sat on the shelf.

This ended around 1970.  I think we were so elated to see 3 rail o gauge back on the shelves that we overlooked the lightweight cars with those weird trucks from Lionel.  We were all enthusiastic buyers then.

I know people that bought 2 of everything that Lionel would make; one for the shelf and one for investment.

As a friend once said, COLLECTIBLE is the only one word oxymoron.

Lou N 

"created collectibles... Beanie babies on wheels", but l am guilty...L still like Atlas reefers...

It's interesting how the market has shifted over time.  Twenty five years ago, convention cars brought a premium and the beer and tobacco boxcars were cheap.  Now the TCA and LCCA specials can be had at bargain prices while many of the 9800-series beer refrigerator cars bring $40-$50 each.  

Commemorative and ‘club’ cars are something I never really “got” as such. They’re hardly collectible, as I’ve seen people buy them cheap to re-paint to something more realistic. Heck Bachmann put out an On30 boxcar for an anniversary, and I bought as many as I could as they were cheaper than the other roadnames. Every one of them was sanded, painted, and made into something else.

Artificial collectible is a good term for this. Someone once asked what they should collect for an investment, I said that’s not a good way to invest in anything, but if they had to, to go with stuff that was already rare and valuable to start with, and even that’s no guarantee. Even among antiques, general interest waxes and wanes and sometimes a cache of something previously rare is found.

Pardon me, l think l have said this before...A convention car would have much more lasting value if it was a model of a car from a defunct railroad, or another unavailable elsewhere car that ran in the conv. city. Any non prototypical lettering should be out of sight....on the bottom?  The only "Christmas Car" with lasting value might be a model of that C&O? caboose that was used on a train run in Appalachia where candy and gifts were tossed out at the

colorado hirailer posted:

Pardon me, l think l have said this before...A convention car would have much more lasting value if it was a model of a car from a defunct railroad, or another unavailable elsewhere car that ran in the conv. city. Any non prototypical lettering should be out of sight....on the bottom?  The only "Christmas Car" with lasting value might be a model of that C&O? caboose that was used on a train run in Appalachia where candy and gifts were tossed out at the

Agreed.  The LCCA cars from the MPC era with real railroad names held their value a little better than the TCA cars from the same time period.  

The overstamped cars took a real hit too, which I think was due to people finding out that many were not Lionel factory production, but were instead overstamped by PVP or someone else.  

I collect and operate MPC (don't laugh--I grew up with the stuff).  For me the fun is in the hunt.  Some pieces from that era are surprisingly hard to find, and prices have fallen so much that one can build up a pretty nice collection without needing to figure out how on earth to pay for it. 

Remember when Lionel would go All Night Long?

stations

I loved the eighties and early nineties for buying and selling MPC. It was a different time. People were collecting just about anything. The Pop Cars, the Tobacco cars the Mint Cars the Bunk Cars, the Standard "O" cars, the State Cars, the Mickey Mouse cars the Sports Cars, the Christmas Cars  and on and on. Everybody, wanted something and I was more than glad to try and find it for them.

I got caught up in this with the Disney Hi Cube box cars back in the 90's.  The first 2, 19241 and 19242 became impossible to find shortly after they were released.  I just happened to stop into a small hobby shop on RT1 in South Brunswick, NJ and they had 2 of each on the shelf for the actual MSRP of around $50.  I purchased both pairs.  I had 2 kids so that was my justification.  The prices of these 2 cars shot up and I remember the highest price I ever saw was $300 each.  I should have sold them then.  I just looked at a couple of auction sites and they are not even selling for less than $50.  To this day, they have never been out of their boxes.  I also purchased 2 Disney EP-15 and caboose's along with a few more of the Hi Cube cars that were offered.  I lost interest when I saw the prices of the original cars come crashing down.  I have 2 complete train sets that I never run.  Thanks to Thomas, my grand kids like the trains.  It might be time to get a Disney train going.

I think out of all the stuff I've purchased over the years there is only 1 box car that would possibly still be a collectable.  Lionel made an order only limited run of a Madison Hardware box car.  That's the only other car in my collection that has never been out of the box.

Today collectable to me is stuff I like to see in action.  When my time is up, my kids and grand kids will get everything.  Since they won't be able to retire on it, my only wish is they keep running them...

Tony

I have the orange Lionel set that were all seperate sale from the 80's.

There was one car the 5712 box car  that was selling at the time for $400+. Seen as high as $500. I never would buy it at that price. Picked it up on eBay for $29.00 in the early 2000's. 

Paintence has its virtues, I waited 25 years to get the car I wanted at a reasonable price. 

What happened in the 80's and 90's was pure greed that chased allot of people from the hobby. 

I collect and operate MPC (don't laugh--I grew up with the stuff).  For me the fun is in the hunt.  Some pieces from that era are surprisingly hard to find, and prices have fallen so much that one can build up a pretty nice collection without needing to figure out how on earth to pay for it. 

You are not alone.
People want what they had or wish they had when they were kids. Some branch out to other eras, others stay true.
So collecting MPC is a growth area.

Well, I am guilty of collecting items that were going to be my "baseball card collection that my mother threw out" too. When I was 18 I saw the JC Penny Commemorative Pennsylvania "Little Joe" and just had to have it. Not because I liked it, but because it was going to be a collectable. It was being sold by JC Penny and there were only going to be so many made!!! Hmmm, imagine my surprise when I  saw that hey every month ( or couple of months) they had a collectable coming out, oh well. Then there was the 785 Light Grey Anniversary Hudson, I was a little older then, about 23, but still just as naive. I had to have it to the tune of $679. I got it from a mail order store, Dougs (Internet?? What internet??) Now this certainly was going to be a collectable!!! It was an anniversary edition!!  How could it not be I told myself.  A lot of overtime went into paying off that puppy. That was the largest train expenditure I had had at that time, it surely was going to go up in value!!. Little did I know about times to come. Hindsight is 20/20 as they say. I'm happy with with it, but it sure isn't a collectable and I still have to fund my retirement! Now if I could only find those baseball cards. . .

When I was 18 I saw the JC Penny Commemorative Pennsylvania "Little Joe" and just had to have it. Not because I liked it, but because it was going to be a collectable.

Well..... the JC Penny Little Joe does draw the biggest buck of all the MPC EP-5's.
I am not up on either the original price or today's price for a MINT example.
Don't know whether you would break even.

Same goes for the JC Penny Trainmaster.

I purchased the JC Penny Interurban on closeout.
Mine is still mint. I don't think I'd break even on that one.
No matter. I like it, and one of these days I'll do something with it.

Collectors like to own stuff. Value is irrelevant.

Speculators like to own stuff that might appreciate in value.

Investors like to own stuff that is supposed to appreciate in value.

Collectables are designed for collectors.

I'm on the buying end and I aint seeing no decent, in the box new collector cars on EBAY for 9 bucks lol  If you do the shipping is 25.oo.   : ) 

C W Burfle posted:

I purchased the JC Penny Interurban on closeout.
Mine is still mint. I don't think I'd break even on that one.
No matter. I like it, and one of these days I'll do something with it.

Actually That blowout SP interurban with TMCC and RS4 has a great second life.   Its an exact match with the shell of the MTH/Lionel conventional powered PRR  4 car Interurban set from a few years earlier. Its super easy to switch shells (perfect match) of the powered units and that outdated PRR 4 car conventional set becomes a command controlled super set with RS..  

joe 

What a wonderfully refreshing and entertaining thread!  As the writer of Collector's Gallery for OGR, this is an especially  enjoyable series of comments, and OH, SO TRUE in today's market. Whenever it is relevant in writing about a locomotive or piece of rolling stock, I mention this current fact of life in my column.

There are still plenty of interesting things for O gaugers to collect, you just have to look at it in a different way today.

Joe, I did the same thing you did with my blowout SP Interurban. My string of Pennsylvania Interurban cars run beautifully  with the addition of the command equipped PRR bodied  lead car.  The CrewTalk sounds a little strange coming from a Pennsylvania Interurban, but , what the heck, a little dramatic license never hurt anything on a 3-rail layout. :-).

Ed Boyle

Last summer I ran across this collection in north Mississippi. The wife was trying to sell the trains after her husband has past away. There were several of what I call od ball box cars in the collection.

She wanted $5K for the collection. As for as I know the trains are still there. I know she had a couple of other  lookers before I saw the collection. I considered offering $1K, but I was afraid she might take my offer. I felt bad for her. I am sure she knew how much money her late husband put into these trains.

I am not sure if I could have sold those box cars for $5 each.

Richard

>>Last summer I ran across this collection in north Mississippi. The wife was trying to sell the trains after her husband has past away.<<<<

I once dreamed of having walls of our basement lined with RS just like Kughns Carail that at the time thought of as train heaven. That is until I visited it.   In the train section he had walls in every room lined floor to ceiling with RS, thousands of pieces.  That visual reminded me of a Twilight Zone episode where a guy died and thought he really did go to heaven.  Everything he wanted he got or turned out perfect.  As it turned out he was in hell and soon became quickly bored with his power...  There is an acquired art to collecting.  Too much of a good thing is never OK, especially for your dependents .  

Joe