An observation about train stores.

I went to a hobby shop with my friend and his son, who was about nine years old.

The kid saw an item that he liked, picked it up, was going to pay for it and one of the sharp, eagle eyed salesmen came from behind the counter and said to the lad;  "Here, I put it on the counter, when you're ready to buy it."

Wow!  The item was about $5.00 tops and it was as if the kid was going to steal a big money item!

Meanwhile, in the past two teenage punks had managed to steal a newer type of steam locomotive and tender, worth at least $1,000.00 and no one, but the security camera saw them walking out of the store, with the goodies!

Ralph

 

Well, I might get blasted for this.  But I'll take that chance.  They don't want to cater towards kids.  They want the 'hobbyist' who will drop big money on a train item.

 

Until Lionel started revamping their train sets last year there wasn't all that much affordable to begin with.  Who's going to spend $500 dollars + on a locomotive for their kids especially when they have never been into the hobby.

 

The second part is from what I have seen is, they are business, and it just so happens they sell toy trains.   They may have at one time been enthusiastic but that enthusiasm die when the internet came into vogue.  They are being squeezed out and some are bitter about it.

 

The smart ones got a presence on the web.

But most of these ma&pa joints are not worth the effort unless perhaps you've know the people for years and they stock some parts you use.  Most barely have a decent selection to even look at.  And it was like that even before the internet.

 

If you want your grand kids walking away with a big smile find a nice train show in your area, and if they let the kids be interactive all the more better.

I agree Tom, I have had the same observations about train stores, however not all.   Crabby non friendly folks who own/and employed.  Not at all enthusiastic about toy trains ... or at least they don't show it.  No real friendly greeting as you walk in the door and not at all helpful once your are inside.

 

Some say things like " the train hobby ain't what it used to be" OR" times are bad no one is buying"  With attitudes like that who wants to frequent a train store where it feels like the House of Usher.  I don't go back to those stores let alone take a kid there.

 

I see alot of these kinds of negative folks selling at train shows also.  They need to take a crash course or two in customer relations and positive salesmanship ... and a course in courtesey and kindness would not hurt either.   An upbeat. friendly, enthusiastic sales force will sell more trains and attract more traffic through and to the store.

 

On the other hand my experience walking into successful trains stores such as Trainland in NY,Just Trains in Delaware, MB Klien in Baltimore,  Engine House Hobbies in Gaithersburg, Md., the Underground Railroad Shop in New Castle Pa, Side Track Hobbies in Leonardtown, Md,  Trains R Us in Fazer Pa  you get owners and sales staff who are most enthusiastic about trains.  They are friendly and have a passion for the hobby and it is infectious.  Aways more than happy to get a layout running for you or a kid.  Perhaps that is why these are successful stores.  Do ya think?

 
""

 

 

Are you a regular customer? Did you ever buy anything there? Is the child disruptive?

 

Did you ever think of buying an item first and then seeing if the child could play? Maybe even an OGR magazine.

 

Do you really think the person working there wants to make money, or just likes to be there to serve you?

 

Silly questions, huh?

 

Gerry

You seem to live on a different planet than I do.

 

I make a point when I travel on business of searching out and visiting local toy train stores - it helps me "de-compress" from the travel and meetings I have to have.  I've been all over North America in the last thrity years, and I'm trying to think of a train store was run by a crabby anything - aged/young, man, woman, boy, girl,  I-can't tell.   I can't think of one case.  In a a couple of situations (out of dozens and dozens) the people seemed not to care that someone they did not recognize was in their store.  In fact that happened thirty years ago when I went into M. B. Klein when they had their store in downtown Baltimore - ironic given how much I buy from their website now and how helpful they are over the phone and e-mail.  

 

But a bit of indifference and lack of interest in a new customer in their store is as negative as I have ever encountered. The vast majority are pleasant and helpful. Almost all seem to like toy trains and anyone else who likes toy trains and have the time and interest to talk to a stranger.  Sometimes I run into people with more enthusiasm than product knowledge, and frankly it is common to run into people who can not think analytically - but then, that's not limited to train stores!.  

quote:

Well, I might get blasted for this.  But I'll take that chance.  They don't want to cater towards kids.  They want the 'hobbyist' who will drop big money on a train item.

 

I think this is true of the "grumpy old men shops".
(I wonder whether those grumpy old men started out that way. )

 

quote:

OH man....I love this one.At my LHS the owner is so ornery,if you ask for something that he doesn't like you will get your A%% chewed out.

 

Assuming the behavior was abnormal, I'd give the shop one more chance. The second time something like that happened, I would leave and never return.

 

I'd been in a fair number of hobby shops over the years. I certainly have run into a few "grumpy old man" shops. Most of the shop's I've visited, from the time I was a kid, and as an adult with or without children, have been run by pleasant people.

 

 

 

 

I knew I would forgot someone -- yes, M.B. Klein was and continues to be excellent.

 

As to the different negative experiences, chalk it up to the vagaries of anecdotal evidence.  While it would likely be inapproriate on a public forum, it certainly would be interesting to compare notes. 

 

 

There have been some great comments here of which Franks above had me rolling cause he's spot on, but those characters are not just in the hobby shops.

 

Ral's latest comment as well is spot on.  I can say that because I worked in retail for years, both as a peon and as a manager.  It's a tough business to be in.  Cause everyone is looking for a bargain and to be treated fairly and some like a King.

 

The turn over rate in retail is higher then among the police.  By in large the general public are class A a-- holes.  Very small percentage have a Ral's mentality. You'll find those mention like what Frank mentions carries over into most area's of life.  There the one's I like to say slide right on through life without to much worry or hardship, although most will say how they have struggled at times in their lives.  They don't know real struggle.

 

They get all the breaks in life, smile in front of you and talk about you like a dog behind your back.

 

But then we get right back to what Ral has said and you will note why a good many brick and mortar stores have closed up and have gone strictly on the internet.  They don't want the hassle anymore of dealing with the public directly.

 

But in my opinion we will always need those brick and mortar places.

What hassle it has become to buy something off line and then have to ship it back because of one reason or another with most of that because it was not what it seem in the online description.  Pure hassle.  10x worst then having to pack it up and drive over to the store.

 

There goes any real sayings unless you bought used.

 

Anyway I understand both sides.  But I will reiterate the point I made earlier and in fact mention how another forum members club started something new where they let the kids run the trains. they just hang back and keep an eye on derailment and crashes and such.

 

 

 

 

I'm still laughing Frank.

No doubt that Frank is a terrific writer and tremendous model railroader.  His layout that was featured recently is simply fantastic.  While I have a different perspective, I certainly enjoyed his take.

Two sides to every story. Frank brings up some very good points. But it is a retail business. If you can't be polite or you are unhappy, it is time to get out of the business.

I might fit the mold of a crabby old *** train stote employee.  But look at it from the point of view of the store owner/employee.  There are many coming into the store to see the layout run on a rainy day as a form of entertainment bringing two or three kids and having no intention of ever buying anything.  These people do it repeatedly.  Also they get annoyed if they have to wait while I'm waiting on a customer makeng a purchase.  They also expect to take catalogues for each kid each time they visit.  When asked if interested in a starter set they usually reply "we don't have the room".

Then there are the "custmers" who do nothing but expect to visit trains with the owner while a real customer waits or doesn't.

 

Well Roger, the trick is not to let it show.

Let me give you an example.  Years and years ago we had this guy come into a retail place where I worked, and he was what we called a 'looky-loo'.

 

And the sales people played 'cheery-pick', meaning they would pick who they wanted to help based on what they thought they might spend.  This dude look a little rough around the edges, came in a few times and bought nothing.  And one day came in and the veteran sales people thought they'd play a joke on a rookie and set him up with helping this guy.

 

The dude drop $3000.00 in cash that day on various items.

 

 

Now get a load of this the manger called this rookie in and started a-- chewing him about spending to much time on one customer. 

Yeah, I know both sides of the game, the language used as well as the attitude.

In my many years in this hobby, dating back to the mid-1970s in my adult years, I have had the occasion to visit a great many hobby shops all over this nation and beyond.  

 

In that time, I have also lived for various extended periods in a variety of different areas, including Hawaii, Baltimore/Washington area, Wisconsin, Iowa, Virginia, and Ohio.  

 

Of all the shops visited and over that long period, I only visited one shop where the owner might be described as "old and crabby."  That particular long-standing business is no longer in operation.

 

I wish you folks with complaints could visit what I no consider my "local" hobby shop (a 45-minute drive each way from where I live) or any of several others on my "recommended list" in the northeast Ohio/western Pennsylvania area.  My current LHS, which I generally visit several times each month (including a planned trip today), is the complete opposite of what was described in the initial post in this thread, and in several other posts that were added.

 

Not only is the owner not "old" or "crabby," he takes a personal and genuine interest in every customer and potential customer who enters the store.  He is also intimately involved in the hobby himself, and has skills that make me look like a rank amateur.  I won't name the owner or the store here because he is a modest fellow and also because there are other fine and welcoming establishments in this area that I buy from on a somewhat less-frequent basis, mostly because of the travel times or distances involved.  People who read the magazine or visit this forum regularly will probably know who I am referring to.

 

Along these same lines, who among those who dealt with him could ever forget the incomparable Jimmy Sutter, who retired from the business of selling toy choo-choos not too long ago?  Jimmy truly was one-of-a-kind, and in the best way possible.

 

The point is, most of these small businesses are owned by individuals and, as such, folks with individual personalities.  Most shop owners, I've found, really enjoy what they are doing and they work hard to develop a loyal customer base, regardless of whether the customer is an interested youngster or a more demanding adult.  The truly cranky and bitter ones must be few and far between because I sure have not run into them over my long period in this hobby.

 

If you encounter a dealer who rubs you the wrong way, the best solution for you as an individual consumer is to simply walk away with your wallet in your pocket and to avoid having your paths cross in the future.  If enough others feel as you do, that business will almost surely not survive for very long.  We live in a time when every good local hobby shop is an asset that deserves to be supported and encouraged.  Yes, we can always do most of our buying via the Internet, but I can tell you for a fact that nothing compares to having a fine local shop that you look forward to visiting on as frequent a basis as possible.

Sometimes dealing with the general public can make anybody crabby. It is impossible to please everybody. Today's hobby shop owners are under tremendous pressure to make a profit after being squeezed by the manufacturers and competing with shows and the Internet.

I have noticed more old and crabby shop owners years ago when the hobby was more popular and business was better. Today I find the local hobby shop a great place to go and talk about techniques, new products or just general train stuff. It reminds me of the old barber shop where the old guys would get together and just talk about things in general. I live in New England so I enjoy Bill's Friendly Train Shop in Rockland, MA and Grandpa's Basement in Warwick, RI. We make an occasional trip to Charles Ro in Malden, MA. I travel the country for business and I love to check out hobby shops wherever I go. The Red Caboose in Denver, CO, Nicholas Smith in Broomall, PA and Toys & Trains in Forney, TX are some of my favorites.

Don't give up on the local hobby shop. They are a great resource. Find your favorite place even if it is an hour drive. Take the wife with you, have a nice lunch and make an afternoon out of it.

I love my LHS.  Old Mr. Wagner always has candy for the kids and runs the trains.  At Christmas time the wives get one of those giant Hershey bars and he tells the husband and kids it's for Mom and Mom only.

 

He knows where his bread is buttered.  Sweetens up the wife so she doesn't get upset the other 364 days a year when you announce you're going to pay Mr. Wagner a visit.  And of course, we always come home with something... even if it's only a couple of dollars spent.

 

He's a great community man and salesman.

Ron

 

Ron045:  I think your LHS man is a genius...

 

I had a LHS close to my old home where the owner kept an inventory of all his client's trains and their "wish lists".  Anytime my wife wanted to buy something for me she would walk in and tell the guy my name and he'd pull 4-5 things off the self for her to choose from, things he was pretty confident that I'd like (or that I'd already told him I liked).  My current LHS isn't so "spouse friendly" and unfortunately each time my wife goes there to pick up a gift for me I think it's a bit overwhelming for her, kind of like me walking into Macy's I guess...

I only experienced one crabby guy in over 30 years. In Manhattan.

quote:

I only experienced one crabby guy in over 30 years. In Manhattan.

 

Would that be the brothers on East 23rd St., or perhaps the guy on West 45th street who took over Model Railroad Equipment Corp? (When was that, 1980's?)

I've been visiting brick-and-mortar train shops for as long as I can remember (over 40 years), and here's my take:

Hobby and train shop owners represent a cross-section of personalities, just like our society in general.  Some owners are real "people persons" with outgoing personalities, and make you feel right at home, as if they've known you for a long time.  Others are introverts, often lacking somewhat in the the people-skills department.  They may not come across as being very nice people, even if they really are!

I don't believe this is any different than the wide range of personalities of other small business owners.  To assume that if someone owns a retail store he or she will automatically be the outwardly warm and friendly type is simply not realistic.

Sometimes it just takes a bit of time to "loosen them up" and get to know them, and for them to get to know you.  Try buying something...that often breaks the ice!

If nothing changes after a few attempts, I simply scratch that store off my list and move on...although I must admit that has only happened a couple times in over 40 years.

 

At least with a local shop, you don't have to be on trial at the Spanish Inquiristion to check out.  Clerk asks if you if you need anything else, takes money or plastic, says thanks, and you move on.

 

Chain stores ask you if you want to give to the rip off, er charity, of the week , be a member of their club, want some candy.....Houston METRORail can get you from Northline Commons to Relian tPark  before you are finished checking out!

The grumpy part is pretty rare and not limited to the "old".  I can only think of one shop in SE lower Michigan that fit that description and it's long gone.  The person running the shop was basically a jerk and he wasn't around very long.  I'm not sure why he was in retail as he didn't seem to like dealing with the general public or even other train nuts for that matter.  aka I love humanity, it's people I can't stand.

 

I can't speak for other areas of the country but my experience in the mid west and north east has been stores that specialize in something as opposed to generic "hobby" shops.  There were train stores, plane stores and occasional "boat" stores.  Almost all of them carried supplies that were universal to hobbyists, e.g. tools, paint, glue, reference material but they were pretty much focused on only one or two "veins" of a hobby.  Some were even sub specialists.  They were primarily HO or Garden or even brand specific (e.g. Maerklin).   This was happening long before the internet.

 

These aren't "toy" shops per se and their stock and staff represent this.  If you want a child friendly environment then you should be going to a toy store.  With the cost of retail space it's hard to justify a "play" area for little kids and most "hobby" shops don't cary a lot of children's toys or have staff that know how to deal with little kids.  It's hard enough to find people that know the stuff you are selling

 

BTW, The clerk that wanted to put the item on the counter may have had a number of concerns and was trying to be helpful.  The child could fall and hurt themselves.  The child could break something while trying to move around with the item.

My local train stores are The Model Railroad Shop in Dunellen and The Train Room in Point Pleasant Beach in New Jersey. Both shops are managed by very friendly and helpful folks. Based upon the train store threads which get posted here, I must be the only one who shops at stores managed by nice people.

 

Bob 

I just read this entire thread.  Interesting.  I've encountered everything in my span of years at various hobby shops all over the place; including the crabby old man.

 

The thing I don't understand is that any owner, any age, is cutting his or her own throat by not catering to kids--who are their future customers!

 

The train bug bit me at about 4 when my parents bought me an American Flyer S scale wind-up train.  My first ventures alone into hobby shops came at 16.  There were three old men who ran the place including owner Les Gordon.  All three of these guys were very good to me.  I'll never forget them.  It was a very small shop in an over-sized garage in west Indianapolis.  God bless all three of them.  I'm certain they are all "gone" by now.  

Of all the shops visited and over that long period, I only visited one shop where the owner might be described as "old and crabby."  That particular long-standing business is no longer in operation.

 

Allan, was this store located in West Allis, WI?

 

If this is the store you are talking about, he was a very crabby owner.

If he knew you, you were fine, but if you came in just to look, he wouldn't make any effort to help you at all!

 

 

Dealing with model railroaders all day is enough to make anyone crabby...

 

Rusty

Turns out that this is really a very hot topic. In my opinion, it is not fair to generalize one or two experiences and call it an industry problem. Allan pretty well summed this up this point.

 

I have traveled extensively in my career and have been in well over 100 train shops. I can remember only one that I experienced unfriendly owners/staff and I quickly left.

C.W.

On west 45th St, had to be in the late '70s since I was transferred from the City in '80. I was still fooling with HO Brass at the time.

 

Also on W. 45th was the Used Book Loft where I was able to find Richard Prince's scarce hardback books on Southern, N&W, ACL and Seaboard steam power. One could save about $20 on a book if willing to do his own search in the stacks. The proprietor didn't have an inventory system. Fortunately, he had stored books generally by size which was a good starting clue.

There have been many excellent posts on this subject.  I too have been in a large number of shops in  my travels and feel that there are by far more excellent shops than bad ones.

 

Here's another way to look at it.  When discussing with the realtor if the people were friendly or not in a potential new neighborhood, she asked how friendly are they where you live now?  If you answer they are great, she will say so are they in this new neighborhood.  If not, then they probably won't be friendly here either.  My point is if we enter a shop with a bad, grumpy attitude and no smile on our face, then it greatly increases the chances of being treated that way.  If you treat store owners and employees with respect, pleasantness, a smile, and are cheerful, but most will return the favor with interest.

 

Art  

Thankfully the store near me that was run by a crabby guy is gone.   He always complained that no one was buying anything.   He had serious discounts on everything, yet no one bought. 

 

His main competition rarely discounts, yet have the friendliest people working at the shop.  If they don't know an answer to a question, they will find out.

They have two small layouts, typical 5x9.  One is designed low enough for kids to play with.

 

 

As a business owner myself, I always find it funny how "we" always try to find excuses for the so called crabby, poor service hobby shop.

 

If I behaved the way some of these owners do and blamed it on demanding or cranky customers, or slow business, I would have been out of business right away.

Some, and yes a say some, of these shops keepers are their own worst enemy when it comes to retail sales.

 

It matters not that there's internet competition, more savvy customers, economic hard time, and so forth.  You adapt, you figure out a way that works to sell, and you treat each customer as if they were your only customer.

 

Maybe it's because of my family's long history of business ownership (from my great grandfather to me, my brother..) but I give no passes to train shops just because they're train shops.  If they treat me poorly or act like they're doing ME a favor by selling to me, they will never sell to me.

 

A business is a business.  We're all selling widgets, whether that widget is an object a service, or both.  We (business owners) all have struggles.  Sales, cash flow, personnel, competition, ambivalent customers, supplier problems, pricing models, you name it.

 

Luckily, the good guys far outnumber the bad, but the bad can really ruin the impression.

 

 

I also like how some in this thread also brought up the kid issue by assuming the grandchild being talked about was unruly.  Train people always complain about the stereotypes prevalent out there about us.    News bulletin: reading OGR forum for a decade, we as a whole are the worst offenders at stereotyping others.

 

When going into a new shop (for me) I use my 50/50 rule.  If the shop is at least 50% trains I will spend some time to see what is going, what THEY are into so I can better gauge if I need to spend my time there.  If on the other hand the shop is R/C, bicycles, crafts, etc, I take a quick walk around and most generally head for the door.  Russ

In a heart beat, and if he came back and did it again or started arguing with me about would have resulted in a call to the police. Just because he spent money at your store doesn't give him a pass on stealing. I'd love to hear from a store owner on the forum of any business on his take on something like this.

 

Jerry

I can only relate two stories that likely contributed to the creation of a "crabby" LHS owner.  In one instance little darling entered the chop, picked up and destroyed a box on the shelf while super Mom berated the owner for expecting payment for the item. Her cherub was beyond reproach.  In the second instance, same shop, the owner had created a terrific HO trolley layout in the window.  Three trolleys running on a multi level loop controlled with numerous relays.  The wiring alone probably too months.  Well cherub #2 went behind the counter and proceeded to destroy the wiring.  Again, super Mom felt her little angel did no wrong.  Adults are also not without blame because the owner did relate a story to me about someone lifting a custom structure from another layout in the rear of the store.  Retail is a challenging endeavor.  This shop is now an internet only operation.  I miss it.

I you catch him stealing one $6 item he has probably stolen many more you did not see. The small items probably added up to more margin made on the $300 locomotive.

Small retail is full of guys who are in business because they didn't want to work for somebody else, "nobody is going to tell ME what to do," blah blah blah. I used to be in the gun business and I've done some small business consulting, and I saw them all the time. If you were going to do business with them it was on their terms. Not only is the customer not always right, the customer is never right. At the gun shows, everything they had was gold, anything the buyer wanted to trade was worthless trash. Business is lousy and it's always somebody else's fault. I've seen plenty of those guys in the train business, and the only thing to do is just avoid them. It's not all that hard. We don't even have an 0 gauge train shop in Tucson, and I do just fine buying from online dealers, the OGR board, eBay, and train shows. We do have one hobby shop that sells Woodland Scenics, paint, styrene sheets, etc. and I do buy stuff there. 

 

BOOM !

 

SH you nailed it good.  And a lot of these clowns have no business even shinning shoes.  They borrowed money from family and friends went into business and now everyone in front of them is trash.

 

And the way you spot these 90 day wonders is just what you mention, which is always blaming and making excuses up for this, that or the other.

 

Now while it may be the exception rather then the norm these clowns exist, and they exist in the hobby train business as well.

And if some out there think brick and mortar has there share, the internet has rise to these wannabe entrepreneurs.

Thats a little harsh don't you think?

 

I've see train store owners be VERY NICE, to the group of daily regulars/buddies that lean up against the display counter to discuss politics or whatever, and not buy anything anyway.

 

Mail order it is.