Another one bites the dust - What do you think

Train stores closings has no bearing on the future of the hobby. More and more folks are turning to the internet for shopping and information. They can get everything they need online, including advice, and how-to's.

Why do folks worry about the future of the hobby anyway?

You cannot make someone take up a hobby. They have to develop an interest on their own.

I certainly don't worry much about the future of the hobby because the hobby will be around in some form long after I'm gone, and I already have more than enough "toys" to last me a couple of lifetimes.  I'll leave any worrying about the hobby up to others because I have more than enough other things to worry about myself.

I disagree with the premise that "train stores closing has no bearing on the future of the hobby."  I think their presence has and will continue to have a profound impact on future growth of this hobby, if there is to be any growth at all.  The Internet is fine, but it definitely has its own share of significant limitations (security, for example).

This has been discussed and re-discussed here more than once.  It is my belief that we should all just enjoy what we do, individually, and collectively, for there isn't much we can do to stay the ultimate success or demise of parts of this hobby, be it a brick and mortar store, or a manufacturer.

I do also believe that manufacturers will become more active is e-commerce.  It is the way of the future, and if we are dragged kicking and screaming into it, then we must be the ones to adjust.  Long gone will be the days spent at the LHS, just looking and talking to fellow enthusiasts.

It is what it is, plenty of electric trains in the secondary market to last our lifetime.

My local Hobby shop weathered some tough times in 08 and 09. But now business is booming...

Stores are becoming dinosaurs due to the rise and dominance of online shopping and ecommerce.

There is a reason why Amazon is the power house it is.

Sure, the argument can be made and has been made about the great personal service the mom and pops provide....great for the customer, but not great for the store if you do not buy anything.

Unfortunately, all of the shopping centers these days seem to have the same thing in it:

1) Supermarket

2) Drug Store

3) Nail Salon

4) Dollar Store

5) Thrift Store

6) Coffee Shop

7) Dominos and/or Papa Johns pizza

8) Subway Sandwich Shop

9) Tanning Salon

10) Beauty Parlor

THATS IT! LOL!

I cannot even find a barber shop as they all went out of business except one, and I refuse to get my hair cut at a beauty parlor.

I live in an economically thriving area full of military retiree's and family's who work in the Government, Military, and defense sector.

Even though this sector is hurting due to all the government cuts in that sector, people still seem to have jobs, and many enjoy having a military retirement, and/or government retirement, and/or Social Security, and/or working a full or part time job too.

Despite all this, almost every shopping center is vacant, unless it is in one of three areas where business seemed to congregate. As even opening a business near a residential area is doomed to failure, as it seems at least in this area the business all must be in the same area or they go under.

Yet, i will see a shopping center 95% with vacant empty stores and one or two of the above I listed.

How the heck can any train store survive is beyond me.

Seems unless the train store is on Long Island or new York City, they will not survive.

Also, the store must have an online eCommerce ability.

Moreover, the train store must sell more than trains, they must sell RC cars, planes, boats etc., as those items are more popular it seems, and our trains are becoming niche more and more.

But I wonder even about those products, as I have also seen almost every comic book store and gaming store go under too here.

Best Buy complained a couple of years ago that people would come in during Christmas time, to touch and feel the product they were interested in at Best Buy, then stand there with their smart phones looking up prices online and even ordering online, but not from Best buy.

Best Buy had become a showroom for the competition.

Best Buy has recovered somewhat with their online presence, but its not enough.

Cell phones make up 50% of the store, and TVs the other 20%.

Even Walmart is hurting, it is their supermarkets that keep them afloat now, as people will always need food.

Most of the business owners here that went under cited too high of a rent and/or in the cases of restuarants, too many of them.

I dont like to worry about the future of model trains, as they are for escaping your worries, and not adding to them.

But I do worry about the fine folks who own these stores, and who have been our friends and suppliers for our beloved trains.

Another big factor in all of this is "getting to the train store"....

I don't know about you, but once Thanksgiving arrives, i avoid retail stores like the plague...the traffic, the crazy drivers, the annoying people.

Bah! I would rather sit at my PC sipping coffee, and mouse click away to purchase stuff from OGR vendors with online shopping, all while watching the snow fall.

As a kid I loved driving with my dad to the train store, but that was in the early 60's before the mutants began arriving from "planet stupid".

Sad....

A lot depends on how the hobby shop owner embraces today's technology.

A once popular local hobby shop in our area will soon close and go out of business. He has no web site, no email, runs no ads, etc. He doesn't understand that to be successful in this business today, you cannot rely solely on walk-in trade. The hobby shop business model has changed, but in this case the owner has not. I actually offered to build this shop a web store for free and take a small cut of the web store sales as my compensation. I told him the orders would just show up in his email and he would then pick, pack and ship them. The owners reaction to that was to make a negative comment about all the extra work that would generate!

Hobby shops that have embraced today's technology (check our sponsor banners at the top of this page for some great examples) are doing fine and selling a lot of product. Others...not so good.

Even though this sector is hurting due to all the government cuts in that sector, people still seem to have jobs, and some are double or triple dipping or even quadruple dipping, i.e. military retirement, government retirement, and in some cases even Social Security, and in most cases working too!

I really, really, hate that "double dipping" term when it comes to military and government retirements. It implies these people are doing something wrong, and been used way to often by certain people to strip away benefits that were promised and earned in return for 20 to 30 years of a persons life in service to this country. And I would point out, while paying into the Social Security/Medicare system out of their not too great pay while doing it. So why shouldn't they draw Social Security when they reach that age? It has nothing to do with their service retirement, any more than a private companies retirement plan.

I'll get off my soapbox now.

As for LHS's closing, having just gone through it here, I'll just say distributors selling direct at discounts brick & mortars can't match, with free shipping for minimum charges that are easily met, doesn't help a bit.

You are correct...fixed now.

Was meant to be a positive thing not a negative.

I believe that Rich stated this very well. Retail is a tough business and if you don't embrace every tool that is available to you, it is almost impossible to make it in today's environment.

I also agree with Allan, there is too much else going on in our world to spend time worrying about this. As long as we have the ability to purchase the train equipment we want from reputable dealers, I am happy.

I am sad to see Train Express close. The strange thing is that TE was the place I went to buy new train items on the internet. For used trains almost always here.

I prefer buying parts off the internet for repairing home appliances, instead of trying to bust out of work to get to some store only to find it just closed five minutes ago. I have fixed dryers, AC unit, and our dishwasher thru the internet.

I miss the old hobby shop I used to frequent when I was in the Model Railroading 15 years ago. I have to drive an hour either direction now, and the selections are not nearly as good. I scratchbuild EVERYTHING, and often need to have my hands on a piece of scale lumber or styrene. It is very difficult for me to conceptualize from a website.

I think things are still shaking out from the Great Recession. Like the building trades, demand is coming back, but the supply chain is weak.

I think whatis going to happen is something like RMT Direct, and pop-up stores during the fall-early winter shopping season.  Most stores of any trade do not go into the black until Black Friday, so just have a physical presence when one can make money off of it.

Most of the stuff i have before the net was mail order, so I have moved to the electronic version of it.

I do agree.  November, December and very early January is Traffic Season around major malls and strip centers.  Daffy Duck would agree!

Rich said it very well.   In business, one must adapt.  If they don't, they go under.

The two hobby shops that went out of business near me were run by long time hobbyists, who were businessmen second.

The great hobby shop near me that is doing very well is run by a couple guys who are businessmen first, and have a passing interest in hobbies.

We can all hem and haw about eCommerce and the changing model of retail, but that solves nothing.

Rich is also correct, the wonderful advertisers here on OGR have adopted the future of retailing, and are doing quite well.

You either change with the times as a business or you won't survive.

The dreaded "internet" is a tool that connects you to a seller. I have purchased hundreds of train related items "on-line," every one of which as come from a real human in a real store or warehouse, delivered by a real human, all the evil internet did was connect me to those very real sellers in their very real towns with their actual stores. Last I checked Steve @Mr. Muffins and Charlie @Nassau Hobby where not cyborgs,  but real fellas, with real stores, buying from them is buying from a LHS regardless of if it walking through their front door or clicking away on their web store. Real people buying from real stores.

I know of not one, prove me wrong if you can, on-line retailer which is devoid of humans - someone's living is earned with every click, might not be the guy down the street but it a guy or gal somewhere.

Can we complain about those dang nabit mail order companies, like Sear's and Robuck with their fancy printed catalog and huge selection or that new fangled telephone.....

The internet is a tool to connect humans, buyers and sellers. It is a good thing for niche market business, like O scale trains.

The door bell just rang....bet it is a real person with a real package, from a real store....whom i just happened to buy from on-line.

It seems to me that the primary purpose of going to York is to buy stuff from real hobby dealers or individuals.

Train shows are also replacing the local hobby shop unless the hobby shop owner hauls stuff to the show.

Joe 

Some train shop owners are a little older and dont want to get with the times. Its all about postwar williams to them. Look at what mth and lionel are making today its not 1957 anymore.. I think if your not on the internet  selling trains your in trouble..

Retail is a tough business either you change with the times or you go out of business. 

The company I worked for is going out of business, one of the many reasons is that they did not keep up with the times. It's a shame because 33,000 people will be laid off. 

Retail is a tough business, but I think the model railroading hobby is in good shape.  I'm confident it will be alive and well as long as I am, which is, to put it selfishly, what is most important to me.

I started ordering all of our Christmas gifts online back in 2001, I started the week of Thanksgiving, and then called all my relatives to let them know my Christmas shopping was "all done"!

All bragging and they are still jealous! lol!

Without mentioning any names, the magazine industry ( printed media ) is having similar issues due to the internet. Short run printers such as Quad Graphics are scaling back. Subscriptions overall are down. Major distributors have folded. I could go into details but names are verboten..many are very familiar in the hobby. Its a shame. Kudos to OGR for expanding their scope of offerings...a good example of savvy marketing. 

Independent business owners close their doors for a variety of reasons.   It does not necessarily  indicate an un-profitable  business.    There are an infinite number of reasons why an owner may choose to close down  their operation.    

I also agree stores need to be willing to utilize new technologies.    It is not the 1980’s anymore and dealers need to evolve and adapt to the competitive market place conditions.     Based upon my observations and experience,  I believe the stores that are and will continue to be successful, are the ones that create a positive “experience” for their guests.    If stores are inviting and interactive, it creates a positive experience for the visitors, almost a club house type environment.  I have walked into some train stores where I feel as if I am bothering them by entering their store.    I do not think stores will survive with one time sales around the holiday season alone.    It is the repeat customer and the hobbyist that will keep the doors open.   

Recently, I have been personally involved with some LCCA Special Events at Mr. Muffin’s train store in Carmel IN.   I think Mr. Muffins Train store, can serve as an example and be used as a template for other stores to follow.    The store layout does not have to be as large as Mr. Muffins, but the environment is friendly and inviting to the local community.    Mr. Muffins has open house events every Saturday with hundreds of visitors.  Grandparents, parents and kids of all ages are there every Saturday.   His business is part of the local community.    He is going to be building a LCCA/Lionel FasTrack Modular Railroad with local organizations and be part of future train shows and other events.  He gives the kids and families an opportunity to take the remote control units in their hands and run the trains on the layout. 

 I buy Lionel trains today, because I played with my Lionel trains as a child.    If I wasn’t encouraged to play with them, I doubt if I would have the interest in toy trains that I have today.   People are encouraged to run the trains at Mr. Muffin’s store.   People have a positive family experience and a personal connection with them running the trains.   People may not purchase upon their first visit, but he is introducing people to the hobby.    He takes more of a counselor’s approach with his potential customers rather than a traditional sales approach.  I don’t think looking at a train set in a box will sell itself to a person who has no prior experience or exposure to the hobby.    Several trains are running at all times in Steve’s store.    Steve and Liz Nelson create a positive experience and interactive environment for visitors to enjoy at their store. 

If you provide a friendly, clean environment, good service, fair pricing and provide good product selection i.e. overall good value,  people will continue to come back and spend their hard earned money.  People make buying decisions, not computers.  It’s all about value.   It is not just a matter of going to a pricing matrix and buying from the lowest price supplier.  I think stores who offer mail order/ internet sales and have a stores that are inviting and create a positive interactive environment that are a part of the local community will be successful well into the future.    My two cents worth.

Al K. 

DEAR L.I. Train,

As far as I know, and I have been ordering stuff from the same LHS for 5 years, he has informed me 3/4 quarters of his business is on line. He owns a small hobby shop and he does half of his business around the holidays as the weather gets colder. He also has a business that he runs in April, May, June,July, August and September and sometimes October to supplement his income.

He maintains a small Staten Island based store, which, in fact is the only store remaining of 4.

Mike Maurice

Listen folks if every LHS that hasn't gone to on-line ordering closes its doors we won't see any effect on the hobby. v 100% internet is the future of the hobby.

Perhaps, but it sure won't be the bright and promising future many folks here are hoping for.  Do some homework and you'll rather quickly see what's been happening right before your eyes over the past few years (and that encompasses far more than just dealers alone).

But don't worry…be happy!    And if you are still fortunate enough to have a good local dealer, do your very best to give him your support, even if it costs you a few more bucks.

My last 3 visits to various LHS...I left empty-handed, they had nothing I was looking for.  All I did was burn a few dollars worth of gas and add wear and tear to my car and my nerves.

On the other hand...the last 3 visits to the internet I found EXACTLY what I was looking for at great prices, and had the items within a week.

My other purchases have been from forum members, here and elsewhere.

The need to be able to walk into a store is greatly over rated these days, I wish it wasn't so but as someone else said, it is what it is.  The problem is I don't spend enough in a year to justify good reason for a LHS to order anything.  They will not survive based on my spending habits.

I have a dissenting opinion from the majority. I think the hobby shop was, and in some cases remains a social contact point as well as having the human touch. Mom and pop stores with individual sole proprietorship were at one time the backbone of entrepreneurship rather than the faceless big box stores or the internet. This afternoon I spent an enjoyable half hour or so chatting with the local owner of a Train Store here while visiting in Illinois. You won't find me in a franchise restaurant either. Main Street in many a small town has taken a hit from "progress". While others may differ in opinion, to me the sense of community over rides what is considered " a good deal". Back in NC, all there is are franchise cookie cutter strip malls all with the same stores, all with the same offerings..all with a Disneyland fake facade to make them look older. No thanks. I respect the opinions of others and am quite content to be in a minority. And yes, I bought some stuff at full retail today. I was glad to do it. I guess you could call me old school or a Luddite. Theres a certain warm feeling when folks know you by name and not an avatar..no Facebook or such for me. I still prefer face to face transactions.

I'm a relatively new addition to the hobby, re-entering it about 3 or so years ago. I hadn't been in the hobby for 30+ years prior to that. I may see things differently than you all that have been in the hobby this entire time. I haven't followed the trends as you all have, but I do know there are many less hobby shops in my area than there were 30 years ago. Metropolitan area of about 2.5-3 million or so in the Midwest.

I am pretty optimistic about things so far. On returning to the hobby, I was overwhelmed by the manufacturer's, their selections, command control systems, accessories, and overall product available in general, scale, traditional, etc. Like starting all over. The catalogs are huge. All I remember from before were catalogs of just a few pages, maybe I wasn't getting all of them back then as I am now? The trains are still expensive as they were before, but they are so much nicer. The postwar trains may be more durable, but I'll take the modern ones.

My LHS is 90% trains. Their only hobby supplies are glue, paint, Plastruct, hobby tools, etc. everything else is trains. They carry all gauges/scales, but mostly O gauge. They just opened in 2010, a year or so before I got back in the hobby. They have been slowly building their business and are doing fairly well. They have a website, but it is mostly a store front. They would like to expand it, but costs, manpower, etc. have kept that from happening so far. The brick and mortar store has grown slightly in size and so has the amount of product they stock.

While I know the train hobbyists are aging, as well as the hobby shop owners, on my weekly visits to my LHS I also see a fair number of young folks. There are teens and some in their 20's-30's that visit the LHS, some I have seen more than once. However, a lot of the younger folks are interested in HO and N gauge. They can still see to get them on the tracks I guess. There are also a number of young couples with very young kids that visit. Some of the kids just want to watch the trains on the store's small layout, but maybe some will become interested in the hobby some day.

I feel very fortunate to have a train store I can visit and look at or purchase trains, tools, supplies, talk to the owner about trains, get advice, etc. for my hobby. I enjoy looking at the items they have in stock and try to visit just about weekly. Probably 95% of my new train purchases come from there. Gives me somewhere fun to go every week for a few hours. I try to keep them going as best as I can. I'm looking forward to continuing this for many years (hoping anyway). And if it doesn't work out that way, I'm enjoying it while I can.

electroliner, I agree, but I do eat at a McDonald's (and maybe a couple others) once in a while with the grand kids.

To me, the closing of Hobby Shops, the ones were displays many times drew people to enter, and possible walk out with a purchase, and possible a start into a hobby. With the closings, there will be so much less exposure to our Hobbies. Sure we write and talk about how we get family members and sometimes friends into the Hobbies, but the loss of exposure to the average person that may not be aware of the hobby, scales, and what is available will diminish. Christmas Catalogs, window displays, and Hobby Shops are becoming things of the past, as have some toy items that kids, and adults played and collected for decades.

I feel bad for some of the hobby shops but the writing has been on the wall for years.  In my opinion, the biggest thing besides the internet that has hurt hobby shops is service.  Walk in to most hobby shops and they either ignore you or immediately put the plaid coat on and try to sell you $$$$ worth of stuff.  So you buy an engine and have a problem with it 2 weeks later.  What does the hobby shop say...."better send it in for repairs".  as a consumer, I will pay a little extra for service, but if the service isn't there, why not shop from home and spend less.  Just my honest opinion. 

Hello,

This has been a growing tend for a long time.

After being with the 1/25 scale model cars,Having anywhere that had kits to see and feel has been gone a long time now.

The MSRP of some things is so much  higher and I was able to get the same thing,just had to wait a few days for it to show up.

With shipping was still cheaper than with state sales tax also.

Do miss seeing something in hand and the one shop that was here,now long gone would let you open the kits to check them out after paying for them .

If there was anything wrong with a kit ,they would give a refund or store credit

That hobby is not  dead but alive and doing very well online ; but the stores that only carry one thing just can not make in some areas.

There is only two stores in my area and both of them are not train stores,but one has a train counter and people are helpful and who know their stuff.

But they also have other things to do also.

One thing I did think of and did not mention above. As the older hobbyists age and leave us, the knowledge of the older trains and accessories goes with them.  I fear that someday the younger folks carrying on will come across older items and have no idea what they are, who made them, etc.  Now, someone finds an old item, posts a picture here and it's usually identified pretty quickly. Sad to think this may all be missing someday. I guess there are books, but somehow that's just not the same as having people around that know what these things are.

rtr12 good point. It's happened in many businesses. Try to find someone to fix a tube radio, try to find a fixit shop to fix a toaster or can opener. You have to throw them out and buy new ones. Try to find a steam engineer. Oh, forgot we have Rich.

I think in the future buying on the internet will be easier and better. Maybe 3-D video of what you want to buy. We are living in the past if we think stores like Rich brought up will still be around long. The strong progressive store will last. Ones that use everything possible to make it better for the customer. Don

Josef -- you hit the nail on the head: the most important function of the LHS is providing exposure to train products, especially to children. The internet can't do this nearly as well-- even YouTube videos can't supplant seeing an operating layout at the LHS.

While making a decent living as a LHS is increasingly difficult given the web's competition, the public relations benefits they provide are hugely important value-added things. Without their presence I wonder how sufficient new generation model railroad enthusiasts are going to become enthralled with the trains (as we were in an earlier era) and begin participating in the hobby.

It seems to me that that's the real concern for the future.

Thanks, scale rail. Josef does make a very good point also. What was the song with the lyrics "you don't know what you've got 'til it's gone", Joni Mitchell I think? Something like that anyway.

Why limit the discussion to brick and mortar hobby stores only?

If the day ever arrives when the internet displaces ALL brick and mortar shops, then there is an issue. But, if you go through any town, you will see plenty of retail stores, all apparently surviving notwithstanding the internet. Therefore, retail survival is possible if you do it a certain way. Hobby shops are no different. The business model today is different from earlier years, in that you have to cast a wider arc to bring in the business.

This is a good point.  Retail is a harsh business and many business fail.  I think it usually has more to do with the owner and how they run a business than what business it is.  My good friends who just closed Tom's Train Station here in central NC and retired, had also run a successful stained-glass window business and some others well - for many years - I imagine they could run any business well.  Another acquaitance opened and closed within two years a hobby shop only a few miles from  Tom's.  He's a nice guy but never going to be able to run any business.