got items that say they are Atwater Models but has handwritten note says All Nation and only a few parts are All Nation--Did All Nation buy out Atwater Models or did they change their name...any info would be appreciated
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In the early 1950s , All-Nation acquired General Models, Atwater models and scale model railways to add to their manufacturing Line. General had an EMD switcher at the time and I think Atwater may have made an F style diesel. I think All Nation offered some small steam engine kits, a ten wheeler and an Atlantic which i thought traced their heritage to prewar Varney Offerings. Not sure how long they offered the locomotive kits
In your case, perhaps Atwater models was using some All nation parts prior to the buyout or perhaps what you have may have been Atwater inventory that All Nation was using up around the time of the acquisition. If you look at the paper work for addresses, dates ,etc it might relate the document to a time period giving you a bit more insight as to when the kit was packaged.
Atwater was the company that produced the dies in the late 1940s for the F units that became part of the All Nation Line. They were well ahead of their time and many O Scale modelers still run them on their model railroads. I have a few of my own. The early castings have a small "Atwater" builders plate cast into their nose. I would think that the All Nation Hobby Shop would have sold the "Atwater" castings until they ran out of them.
As far as Varney/General Models/All Nation/Babbitt steam loco kits go, there was a 4-4-0, 4-4-2, 4-6-0 (original Varney B&O Ten Wheeler from 1946/47), 2-6-0 (Babbitt era), 2-6-2 (Carey Boiler) 4-6-0 ( Carey Boiler), 4-6-2, 4-8-2 and a 2-6-6-4 that was offered during the Genereal Models period in the late 1940s early 1950s for a short time. All of these models utilized the 70" Varney drivers and other parts. Frames are all bar stock (usually steel) with spacer rivets and bronze bearings from the original Varney design. The Mountain and the articulated have cast brass cylinders (probably Adams and Son) and the rest use the Varney Ten Wheeler cylinders, rods and valve gear. Properly assembled they will outlive their builders and can be made into very smooth running locos.
BTS (Bill Wade) in West Virginia purchased the steam loco line from Babbitt a few years ago but, up to now, has not offered anything from their inventory for sale.
These models in various finished forms and kits show up for sale with some frequency on ebay and usually sell for less than Babbitt was asking for their kits. That was probably a problem for the owner of Babbitt and may be why BTS has been slow in offering these kits again.
I think there is a decent market for parts to keep these locos running but I am not sure about the need for new complete kits. There aren't many people still building locos from kits or scratch anymore. I would guess there are less than 100 folks in our hobby that are doing this today.
Information above is based on my knowledge of the All Nation Line from personal experience with their locos and reading Model Railroader mags from the late 1940s and 1950s. Estimate of the quantity of loco builders today is strictly a guess on my part based on conversations with modelers at various O Scale meets around the country.
I will be finishing up my second All Nation 4-4-0 kit this summer.
Best to all,
Joe Foehrkolb
thank you steamer thank you joe I now know twice as much as I knew before --it does help--now I'll be able to answer questions should they arise as I'm going to be selling them if anyone would be interested in 9doors,5 B tops,1 B side,1 right side & 3 left side A unit,2 1/2 trucks and 5 double thread assemblers--asking $20 + shipping -flat rate 18.95 best price as they weigh 11 lbs. thanks again guys much appreciated
oh I forgot 2 A roofs imagine that
I know all nation made their 4-6-0 into the late 1960's, and they had a popular F7, 4-6-2, 4-8-2, and 4-4-2 in 1950. Don't know much beyond that.
AFAIK, this is the All Nation 4-4-2 mentioned above. I seem to recall seeing "Varney" cast into some of the Zamac parts.
Bruce
Yes. Many of the parts, including drivers, cylinders, tender, side rods, are all from the Varney ten-wheeler. This is all we had in the late 1950s until Max Gray started importing quality brass.
thanks to all of you for info you shared much appreciated and that is a slick steam engine nice job
The All Nation Hobby Shop was owned by O Scale Hall of Fame member Bob Colson. I'm not sure that they (All Nation) actually produced anything in house. They sold a lot of stuff like the Atwater/General Models diesels that ended up carrying their name, but were not actually their creations. If you are really interested in their stuff, dig up some back issues of the late "O Scale News 48/ft". Bob2 and Joe F. probably can add a bit to this.
Simon
PS: As of later years, the "All Nation Line" was owned by a gentleman named Bill Pope until he passed a few years back. Mr. Pope is also a member of the "O Scale Hall of Fame" as is our fellow forumite Joe Foehrkolb.
Gentlemen,
I have a few All Nation locos, and they run more like a real steam engine than most spark trains in that, with the original open-frame motors, you have to give them a lot of throttle, then back off as the thing starts to move, or they will jackrabbit or spin the drivers. As delivered, they aren't for rivet counters but, with effort and enjoyment, they are a good platform for remodeling.
Here are a few shots of my GM Ten Wheeler, which I reworked extensively to represent an SP TW-10 (?). Sadly, these shots are AFTER one of my cats knocked it off the piano, but you can see it's humble heritage if you look closely enough.
Lotsa grinding and fabbing, but I am pleased with the results. The scratch-built Vandy tender houses a speaker and pickup for PFM SSII sound which, to me, is the best steam sound system ever produced.
Loves me some trains,
Mark in Modesto
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I know I shouldn't spent the time but here is the correct story of the Atwater tooling. In short, Atwater Models developed the F-3 tooling but ran out of money before marketing the product as his under floor powered trucks basically didn't work. General Models which had been buying up other O scale lines in the 1946-1949 period, acquired the tooling and developed the well known power truck later marketed for many years by All Nation. General Models sold many copies of the model (which still had "Atwater" engraved in the dies) and developed the F-7 variation before going bankrupt in late 1950 (due to a bad direct sales strategy and possibly an embezzlement). Bob Colson bought the line from the bankruptcy auction in 1951 for his All Nation Hobby shop in Chicago. Initially he intended only to sell off the remaining stock but Bozack (father of the current owner of Chicagoland hobbies) and others convinced Colson to restart manufacturing of the line which included the F units, diesel switcher, Varney derived steamers and many freight cars. Colson produced the line through the early 1970's with many additions and improvements. Bill Pope then acquired the line and continued it until his death about 10 years ago. Rumor is that the tooling is sitting in Pope son's barn rusting.
Slight addendum to the above. Bill Pope sold off the steam line of kits in the 90s I think to a guy in Kentucky who named it Babbitt Loco works or something like that. He upgraded the models with enclosed gear boxes (from PSC I think) and sprung drivers. He also added a 2-6-0 to the line with a rolled brass boiler. I don't how many of the loco kits were offered, but I have seen kits for the 4-6-0, 4-4-2, and the 4-6-2
This gentleman sold the line a few years ago (maybe 5) to I think BTS Car Shops. The owner of that company had some serious medical problems shortly after buying the line and has not offered parts or kits for sale yet. But he still mentions that he plans to on his website.
So the dies and tools still at Pope's shop would be presumably for the diesels, freight, and passenger car kits. I think Bill Pope bought the plans and dies for the Walthers passenger car kits when they got out of O Scale mfg. Keil-line bought the molds for diecast parts from Walthers. Keil and Pope worked together to market new kits from the Walthers tooling.
Another addendum: the steamers went first to George Sennhouser, of Babbitt, Minnesota, and hence the new name. The guy in Kentucky - Boyce Yates - continued the line under the Babbitt name. I did all his axle knurling, and he sent me spare parts.
This is an unforgiving business - it costs more to roll out a complete kit than it does to buy one on eBay, either kit or finished. That is what happened to CLW, and it will continue to happen. There is no future in paying money for dies, tools, or patents/copyrights. I love the Walthers 9000- series passenger car kits, but they can be had in pristine condition for $25, or less than it would cost to pack the box in low quantities. That is why the Pope children will never find a buyer. The stuff needs to be placed in an archive, with strict rules on who can use the fixtures and dies and how they are returned. Not gonna happen.
Opinion.
Someone should buy them, and market them completed.
Okay, you are someone, when is your first release?
Realistically, The 40s era stuff takes a lot of work to compete with the modern plastic and brass models. The detail is just not there. The walthers passenger cars can be made up into nice cars. But the rivet detail is crude compared to the GGD plastic. They do have the advantage of some specific models and GGD is limited to just a few. On the other hand, how many modelers still want models of heavy weight passenger cars?
The All Nation line products, along with Max Gray brass played a critical role in keeping O Scale 2 rail alive during the 1950/60's. The men that produced them deserve our respect and thanks. But by today's standards of prototype fidelity and performance their models just can't compete with newer products in resin, brass, or even die cast. Case in point being the incorrect nose contour on the Atwater/GMC/All Nation F units or the simple stamped brass hardware on many 1950's era kits and imports. From a prototype modelling perspective, the good old days weren't all that good - however model railroading was satisfying and fun. IMO it is even more so today as we have far more choices on how to pursue the hobby.
El Classico,
Golden Gate Depot's forthcoming release of 12 and 1 and 8-1-2 sleepers lists for $170 per car complete.
If you could purchase a Walthers kit for $25, add $40 or so for good trucks (GGD's 3 axle P/S ones are $50), decals at $5-10, lights @ $15, interior @ $30 +/-, paint, etc. Basically a GGD completely finished car costs the same as a complete Walthers kit.
I have built a number of Walthers cars and know I am slow compared to other builders, but I can figure at least 25-35 hours to completely finish a car to basically the same level of amenities as a GGD car.
A well known O scale passenger car builder charges about $600-650 for a completed O scale passenger car including ones built from Walthers kits. Are they "better" than GGD cars? In some respects definitely - at 4 times the price.
Personally, I much preferred JC Models kits over Walthers for their finer rivet detail but JC was rather limited in offerings compared to Walthers although they did offer a number of PRR, NYC, and N&W kits in addition to 12 and 1 cars.
And one choice, out of many, is to be a "doorstop" collector. There are very few of us, and our models are very crude in comparison, but we are a happy bunch. I would post a photo of a "doorstop" for you, but with just a little work, you can see many doorstop models, including well done Walthers cars, on another 2-rail forum that actually accepts my Photobucket images.
I sometimes wonder about folks with perfect layouts and three rail track. They in turn wonder about my sanity, running sand- cast PAs and Mountains. All in good fun.
OK What's a doorstop, Bob?
Can you suggest a Google search line?
Cheers
MaxSouthOz posted:OK What's a doorstop, Bob?
Can you suggest a Google search line?
Cheers
A "doorstop" is generally a piece of crap that is heavy enough to hold any door in the desired position. Also, a good "doorstop" does NOT necessarily have to be a piece of model railroad stuff.
Hmm. I'll ask it a different way.
My email address is below. Can you point me to the forum please, Bob?
rheil posted:El Classico,
Golden Gate Depot's forthcoming release of 12 and 1 and 8-1-2 sleepers lists for $170 per car complete.
If you could purchase a Walthers kit for $25, add $40 or so for good trucks (GGD's 3 axle P/S ones are $50), decals at $5-10, lights @ $15, interior @ $30 +/-, paint, etc. Basically a GGD completely finished car costs the same as a complete Walthers kit.
I have built a number of Walthers cars and know I am slow compared to other builders, but I can figure at least 25-35 hours to completely finish a car to basically the same level of amenities as a GGD car.
A well known O scale passenger car builder charges about $600-650 for a completed O scale passenger car including ones built from Walthers kits. Are they "better" than GGD cars? In some respects definitely - at 4 times the price.
Personally, I much preferred JC Models kits over Walthers for their finer rivet detail but JC was rather limited in offerings compared to Walthers although they did offer a number of PRR, NYC, and N&W kits in addition to 12 and 1 cars.
To answer a couple opinions at once:
-It's true that the Walthers cars do not have fine rivet detail. That's what batten strips and Archer transfers are for. And, if you think they are "crude," take a look at Ed Bommer's work. Bob2 is a fan, too 
-American models made a wide range of accurate passenger car kits that make up more quickly and have nice rivets....Patient searching on eBay is required.
-I'd like to acquire some JC Models kits, but, my goodness, they are rare, especially for folk on the Left Coast who don't have the swell shows to attend at which to pick up jewels.
-As nice as GGD cars are, the range is limited (what you gonna do for a solarium car, e.g.?). The GGD coaches are PRR P-70, paired window designs. Swell. Many railroads used single window designs. Slapping a different coat of paint on a P70 does not convert it into an accurate model of a different design.
-Yes, it takes time to complete a kit car. On the other hand, the P70 cars have more or less generic underframe components, accurate perhaps, for one version within the P-70 range. And, while they do have interiors, they are only approximations of actual cars. By the time I alter and repaint I could have done a scratch+bought component interior.
-Who models heavy weight cars? Foolish question...apparently many do given the sales of "Madison" cars by MTH, Lionel, et al. As for me, there's a prewar Broadway Limited pulled by my High Iron K-4 just waiting for time and energy to build.
Keystoned Ed posted: Case in point being the incorrect nose contour on the Atwater/GMC/All Nation F units
Just curious....what is incorrect?
Simon
Max - Google "monday mountain thread". Then look for doorstops.
The most inaccurate part of the A-N nose, to me, is the slightly large windshield.
I have complete strings of PSC Harriman and Pullman cars, and complete strings of SP and PRR Walthers cars. I actually prefer the Walthers cars - they feel more like model railroading to me.
But remember - to each his or her own . . .
Thanks, Bob.
A doorstop is a non-working loco - only good for a doorstop.
Cheers
It is meant with some humor and self-deprecation. Often "doorstops" can out-pull the best of modern models. Some larger Diesel models have two giant AC-DC motors that can turn the room into an ozone factory, and pull ten amps while hauling a hundred metal and wood freight cars.
By the way, once you find "Monday Mountains" a little extra effort will show you a lot more doorstop models. Try, for instance, "Doorstop!" on page two.
Yes. I had a good look around, Bob.
A nice board. 
I agree that the JC cars have better detailed sides than the Walthers cars. Since I am a pennsy fan, the GGD cars worked out great for me. They were better detailed than the Walthers cars I had and the original sets were only about 125 per car.
But if you model any RR that did not use Paired window coaches similar to a P70, they may not meet your needs.
The walthers line especially had kits for many different prototypes of coaches and pullmans. Many of the heavy weight name trains could be modeled. they also had a big variety of head end equipment to fill out consistss, and solariums and observation cars.
bob2 posted:The most inaccurate part of the A-N nose, to me, is the slightly large windshield.
I won't argue that, except I would call everything in FRONT of the windshield the 'nose'.
Simon
Love the side topic of "door stops".....I have some, too! I also have one......"boat anchor".....which is bigger and heavier than a "door stop".....
Simon - The nose of the Atwater/AN F units comes to a rather flat radius where the two half's of the die cast body meet. I was happy with my AN F units until I saw better representations from Atlas/Roco, and much later P&D, AtlasO, Key, and Sunset 3rd Rail, Lionel, and MTH. Like any model - the acid test comes when you compare it with prototype photos taken from several angles. Back in the era they were produced modelers didn't have access to the prototype drawings and wealth of photos we have today. For their day they were excellent models.
As far as heavyweight passenger cars kits go, IMO the highest standard was set by Ralph Brown's American Standard Car Company. His side rivet detail, belt rail, window sash representations were orders of magnitude better than the stamped steel sides by Walthers or JC. As best as I can tell from my incomplete collection of old ASC catalogs, Ralph designed and produced kits for at least 56 different prototypes. He also produced a wide selection of streamline car kits in O scale under the American Lightweight Car Company brand. Due to health issues the ASC line was sold to an individual in Knoxville TN who intended to continue production under the Pullman Scale Car Manufacturing Co. brand. PSCMC Catalog 1 dated 1995 listed 59 kits including 3 one piece resin body kits. While I've seen hundreds of ASC kits and built up models at O scale show, I've not seen a PSCMC kit. Attempts by friend to order catalogs, kits and parts from the PSCMC's Knoxville P.O. box address were unsuccessful.
Hey - do not forget the Exacta molded copper heavyweights! I have one, and the rivet detail is as good as PSC. I suspect they are 17/64, but that is good for me. I should have bought a few more from Peckman. Maybe some day . . .
Lots of neat information here
prrjim posted:Okay, you are someone, when is your first release?
Realistically, The 40s era stuff takes a lot of work to compete with the modern plastic and brass models. The detail is just not there. The walthers passenger cars can be made up into nice cars. But the rivet detail is crude compared to the GGD plastic. They do have the advantage of some specific models and GGD is limited to just a few. On the other hand, how many modelers still want models of heavy weight passenger cars?
If that's the challenge, consider it accepted. Who would I contact about the dies.
Tom Shirey posted:Love the side topic of "door stops".....I have some, too! I also have one......"boat anchor".....which is bigger and heavier than a "door stop".....
Mine is "fishing flies" AKA Hornby decoders. 
I think the fastest way to get ahold of the Pope kids is to call Downtown Hobbies in Chicago and get a referral. Or maybe P&D Hobbies. But be advised, the rumor is that these kids think they are holding a gold mine.
bob2 posted:I think the fastest way to get ahold of the Pope kids is to call Downtown Hobbies in Chicago and get a referral. Or maybe P&D Hobbies. But be advised, the rumor is that these kids think they are holding a gold mine.
Couldn't find Downtown Hobbies, contacted P&D. Still waiting for a response from them.
rheil posted:El Classico,
Golden Gate Depot's forthcoming release of 12 and 1 and 8-1-2 sleepers lists for $170 per car complete.
If you could purchase a Walthers kit for $25, add $40 or so for good trucks (GGD's 3 axle P/S ones are $50), decals at $5-10, lights @ $15, interior @ $30 +/-, paint, etc. Basically a GGD completely finished car costs the same as a complete Walthers kit.
I have built a number of Walthers cars and know I am slow compared to other builders, but I can figure at least 25-35 hours to completely finish a car to basically the same level of amenities as a GGD car.
A well known O scale passenger car builder charges about $600-650 for a completed O scale passenger car including ones built from Walthers kits. Are they "better" than GGD cars? In some respects definitely - at 4 times the price.
Personally, I much preferred JC Models kits over Walthers for their finer rivet detail but JC was rather limited in offerings compared to Walthers although they did offer a number of PRR, NYC, and N&W kits in addition to 12 and 1 cars.
By using decent trucks (Mebbe the postwar Lionel or original Walthers ones?), window strips instead of a full interior, and not lettering them, that brings the Aalther cars down about $60
