Best Transformer For Conventional Use?

Good question, but are you talking of straight conventional engines (new and old) or command engines running conventionally? At this point I'm not sure it would make a difference, except older conventional engines might have different motors (AC vice DC) while the newer engines have DC can motors.

Can't run more than 1 train at a time in conventional w/ a Z1000.

ROW or Z4000 by MTH, either/or, hands down.

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Good question, but are you talking of straight conventional engines (new and old) or command engines running conventionally?

..both.

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ROW or Z4000 by MTH, either/or, hands down.

You can only run TWO trains with a Z-4000 and you can buy four Z-1000's for less money (which would allow you tun run FOUR trains).

I have found the best transformer for conventional control is the MTH Z-4000, especially when you team it up with the handheld remote.

Also the Z-4000, in my opinion, is a must if you are operating MTH PS-1 engines because of the progame feature.

BTW, the early QSI equipped locomotives, eg. WEAver PRR l1, will not operate with a MTH Z-1000.

I love the Z-1000 transformers (I have two). You can often find them for $65 or so in LN to Mint condition. The circuit breakers pop really fast if necessary.

The only drawback for me, and it really is an aesthetic issue, is when I set it up for my Christmas layout under the tree. I think seeing the power pack is an eye sore.

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Originally posted by chuck:

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ROW or Z4000 by MTH, either/or, hands down.

You can only run TWO trains with a Z-4000 and you can buy four Z-1000's for less money (which would allow you tun run FOUR trains).

You could likely buy 6 through the buy/sell board or at a swap meet over time (patience being a key factor) for the same price as buying 1 new Z4000 from a dealer.

You already have the Lionel ZW, which you apparently are not happy with, so if you want something of equivalent size, that pretty much leaves the MTH Z4000 (a transformer I use on my home layout). If something smaller and more affordable appeals to you--and if you want to be able to operate four loops with four trains--then four MTH Z1000s would probably be a good choice.

You might also want to check into the MRC transformers. I don't have any significant experience with them, although I do use MRC power packs for my On30 trains, but others here will surely offer their opinions.

After I built my permanent layout, I started out in conventional running off the handles Pre War, Post War and modern command tmcc engines. And I have MTH rolling stock, but have never owned any of their engines. At some point I decided to go on and try tmcc because it just happened that I had the equipment for it, the command base, cab-1 and the ZWC (and later a New ZW). In other words, I felt I owed it to myself to at least try it. And I did.

Anyway, I'm now ready to return to the operating style of my childhood, which I know works great - conventional.

I somehow got through that childhood without owning one of the Post War ZWs. But I would be happy to consider that too if everyone thinks it stacks up well against the Z-4000. But, if there's a reluctance about the PW ZW, it's that I know it has no bell control.

The ROW and MRC transformers I've heard of, but only because they've been mentioned here. I don't really know anything in particular about them.

A fair amount of power is needed. I sometimes do two Pullmor powered F units together with a string of die cast K-L coal hoppers or PW lighted passenger trains and other heavy drawers of electrical current.

I avoid creating problems and unauthorized operating scenarios with electronic items so I never encounter any.
I can run 2 old school trains in conventional mode or 7 MTH PS-2 trains at once using the DCS system.

Get yourself an MTH Z-4000 transformer.
End of story.

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Originally posted by Ginsaw:
The ROW and MRC transformers I've heard of, but only because they've been mentioned here. I don't really know anything in particular about them.

A fair amount of power is needed. I sometimes do two Pullmor powered F units together with a string of die cast K-L coal hoppers or PW lighted passenger trains and other heavy drawers of electrical current.

The MRC Pure Power units work very well, especially with modern electronics. I have the 135-watt single unit; the dual 270-watt transformer is pretty much two of them in one case with volt and amp meters. You can probably pick one up for about $275-ish, maybe a little less if you shop around. It has a pure-sine-wave output, so it runs anything from postwar to modern command-equipped engines.

Rebuilt and checked out PW ZW's were selling for 125-150 at York. Since you already? have one PW ZW for another $250-300 you will have the capability of running 6 tracks off the handles and have the additional convenience of 6 separate adjustable outputs for lights and voltage sensitive accessories with a total of nearly 600 watts available.

Get some old Lionel external whistle controller buttons and insert them in each line BACKWARDS. Then they will ring the bells.

Tony

MRC dual power 0-27 is very good too.
I like the wire throttle feature.
Andre.

Hello,

I am looking for 1-2 Z1000 transformers if anyone has any available.

Thanks,

We use a MTH z-4000 for our 2 main lines. I am adding a third line but will use a z-1000 for that line. We run from post war to premier engines all in conventional mode. We did have a old zw but it did not have a horn button and was a pain in the rump to run a ps-1 engine with. Get the z-4000, they are worth their weight. Nick

Your experience is almost exactly the same on mine. I soured on modern electronics and I do not like cruise control. Cruise control seems too robot-like for my tastes. I run almost exclusively prewar/postwar and Williams conventional engines. The transformers I have are a new ZW, CW-80, Postwar ZW and KW.

I prefer the ZW and KW for conventional operation because the transformer control of track voltage is linear from full off to full power. The transformer control of track voltage on the modern ZW has a large deadband of about 1/3 of throttle range near the 'off' position. I also like the nostalgic values of the postwar transformers.

Additionally, I know I can obtain repair parts for my postwar transformers, probably forever. I can no longer obtain the circuit board for my modern ZW and it is only about 10 years old.

Earl

I've got the MRC Dual to run my double main layout, and am quite happy with it. I also have an old Z-750 that powers my turntable area.

I think that either running a dual with a single transformer for the 3rd loop, or simply running three single transformers would work equally well.

One nice thing about the MRC Dual is that for $225 - $275, you get a well built transformer that comes with two amp and two voltage gauges.

Jim

ROW and Z4000 for larger layouts. I like the Lionel 180 bricks but not the controller. Smaller layouts have many choices. I would go with the Z1000 or MRC on a smaller layout.
Large or small, stay away from older relics with modern electronics unless you use added protection.

If you use a PW transformer here is a simple add on to protect modern electronics. The TVS is needed whether the transformer is modern or PW if engines with PC chips are used.

http://www.jcstudiosinc.com/Bl...d=486&categoryId=426

Dale H

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I can no longer obtain the circuit board for my modern ZW and it is only about 10 years old.

As far as I'm concerned, that single fact rips it...they aren't going to last and last, and then what? Then you have to do something.

Besides that, there're the electronic problems with the engines.

Anyway, how sturdy are the handles on the Z-4000 and the MRC compared to the old PW ZW? And does the Z-4000 have any electronics in it that are hard to replace? What kind of sine wave does it have?

I have an MRC 6000 Tech 4 transformer I purchsed at my LHS a couple of years ago. I also have a couple of MTH PS 1 and PS2 locomotives-a 2-6-0 and some diesel switchers. I've never used this before.

I'm a newbie in O-gauge. Hoping to build a layout someday.

Any help would be appreciated. Thanks in advance.

The Z4000 is built very strong. All parts can be obtained. Yes, you can get out on the cheap if you use old transformers. Everyone has a choice on what to use. Most people make good choices but many do not.

I like the old stuff but you can't beat the Z4000.
C'mon guys, those PW units are 50+ years old and the Lionel New ZW is not supported by the factory. If Lionel had a clue they'd engineer a replacement board using readuily obtainable components and support their product. This leaves the Z4000.

i have 3 Z-4000 transformers. they get the job done!! i can run ANY 3-rail o scale engine with the Z-4000 transformer................rogerw.

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Originally posted by Ginsaw:
Anyway, how sturdy are the handles on the Z-4000 and the MRC compared to the old PW ZW?

The handle on my MRC is quite sturdy- it's a heavy plastic handle that fits on the metal shaft of the transformer slide. No gears to bind or get out of alignment. And the transformer itself is an "old-school" slide-on-coil type, similar to the original transformers- no sine-wave-chopping electronics to crap out on you. Its only drawback, IMO, is that you get some slow-down when using the horn/whistle and bell buttons. Beyond that, it's a solid, strong performer.

Z4000, in my opinion, is the best all around transformer.

The Z-4000 is a modern era electronic power supply. There is very little in it that is user replaceable. Something goes wrong it goes back to the shop. It is well made and will last a long time. The main complaint is that it is physically huge. The footprint is about twice that of a classic ZW. The handles are sturdy but do not have the feel of a PW ZW but are much better than the modern ZW. You have to balance the output (10 amps per channel) vrs the size/weight.

If you really intend to double up twin motored open frame motors and a long string of post war illuminated passenger cars you are going to very close to 10 amps. I would never recommend running any power supply at 90%+ for extended periods of time. You should have some reserve power and you need to keep the unit from overheating. The only power supply(s) I know that will handle this without problems are the TPC's when they have dual bricks feeding them. Since you don't want to use the TPC's I'm not sure what you should do.

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The only power supply(s) I know that will handle this without problems are the TPC's when they have dual bricks feeding them. Since you don't want to use the TPC's I'm not sure what you should do.

Can you operate command engines in conventional with the TPC, or do electronic tmcc engines automatically recognize the TPC as being in command mode and therefore respond in command mode? This would be what I'm trying to avoid as I'm more concerned with engine electronic issues than with electronic controller problems. In other words, I understand you can select the TPC mode, conv or command, but I don't know if it can talk to command engines as though they are conventional engines. That might be useful info to know, which is another way of saying I don't otherwise object to the TPC.

With the ZWC or New ZW you can run command engines in conventional, but only if you turn off the command base and run off the handles. I'm happy with that, as long as I've something with better handles, so to speak.

I've used a single 135 brick with ZWC for that with no real problem. I say no "real" problem, because the worse that happens is that the brick gets a slight bit warm after 30 minutes at high speed with a die cast coal train and two powered Pullmor F units. The thing's fused for 7.5 amps and they've never blown.

Hi Ginsaw, Am I correct in understanding you now own a pw ZW? Read my piece on installing Zener diodes in it. It will work all your horns/whistles perfectly then. Both modern & postwar with NO speed changes on pushing whistle button & will always work! It cannot do any "bell" functions however. Will run aprox. $30 for parts. The labor is the same as installing modern post diodes in old ZWs. This is not balony!! I did this 3 weeks ago & cannot believe the results.
Very best, Don Johnson

My vote would have to be the Z-1000 for running trains. I have 4 of them I only use for track power. As mentioned they have a fast acting breaker and have never failed. Great transformer for the money! I have a postwar ZW I use for accesories and lights.

TPC's do not use the track signal for communications purposes. They use the serial line. If you do not connect anything to the antenna port on the command base there will not be any signal for the engines (or any other command equipped receiver) to pick up. Any IC control devices will work, e.g. TPC, ASC, BPC because they use the serial data line as well. You can not disconnect the antenna wire from the "track end" it has to be from the command base side. This will not get you the "throttle" handles you were looking for but it will handle the current requirements without taxing the power supplies.

If it weren't for the large amount of current you are trying to pull, I'd go with multiple Z-1000's. They're relatively small and cheap. Since you say you need that much you may want to consider picking up some additional PW ZW's and then add the sound activation buttons and protective add ons (TVS/fast acting breaker).

Z 4000 absolutely the best. The Z 1000 is the best for small layouts, much better value and more reliable than Lionel’s CW 80. Better circuit protection than a postwar transformer. If you need to power more than 1 train, there is no reason you can’t use more than Z 1000. Before DCC the HO guys used block systems and multiple power packs

I've had a number of transformers over the years. A KW, LW, just recently got a ZW (postwar). I've also had a z-4000, Z-1000. I've had transformers from current Lionel sets and also have Lionel Command Control. I got rid of the Z-4000 many years ago (wish I would have kept it). The two I use most today are the Z-1000 and the LW. And it really is a toss up between the two. The z-1000 seems to handle the newer engines with the new electronics better than my LW.
The LW will occasionally cause an electronic whistle to blow but the Z-1000 does not. The KW is long gone, it just didn't work for me and the type of layout I was running at the time. I still use the ZW occasionally. The nice thing about the ZW is that you don't have to phase it like you would with multiple transformers.
Steve

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Am I correct in understanding you now own a pw ZW?

Few things in toy trains create more confusion than the terminology with Lionel's ZW series of transformers and controllers.

I don't have the PW ZW, also known as the old 1950s Post War ZW.

What I have are two things, the New ZW (not its official name) w/ 180 bricks (Powerhouses) and its early variant, the ZWC (PWC ZW) w/ 135 bricks. These are electronic controllers and actually not transformers at all. The transformers are the "bricks". But this terminology is probably not going to make much sense except to those who actually own these.

Anyway, in addition to getting away from being vunerable to engine electronics, I would also like to avoid these particular electronic controllers.

I think Lionel should have given these controllers other names to avoid the confusion with the Post War transformer, evidence of which fact crops up here all the time.

Chuck, as I understand your explanation of the TPC (which I have never owned) I THINK what you're saying is that it serves the same function (only better with more speed steps or whatever) than the old PowerMaster (PM).

That PM as I'm sure you know is built into the New ZW and ZWC electronic controllers. I assume it's four of them built in, because they operate on all four channels at the same time. That's what allows you to operate command engines in conventional (along with operating conventional engines). What you do though is disconnect the command base first. As a practical matter, I do that by simply not turning it on at the power strip and turn on the regular track power instead that powers up the bricks and controllers and therefore the internal PMs.

If I've got this correct, using the TPC does the same thing, but without the separate controller units. But, you would still have to enable the command base or the Cab-1 has nothing to talk to, and once you do that, the command engines recognize the command signal and that defeats what I'm trying to do. In other words, without the command base there's no way the Cab-1 can talk to the PowerMasters or TPC.

Conceptually, that's how I visualize it. So, is that right? If so, then TPCs wouldn't get me where I want to go because they don't avoid the command base.

All you have to do is disconnect the single wire from the command base, it's not used to control the TPC, SC2, or other control boxes. The 9-pin serial port on the command base is used for that purpose, and has nothing to do with controlling trains except for passing power level information from the CAB-1 to the TPC in conventional mode.

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Conceptually, that's how I visualize it. So, is that right? If so, then TPCs wouldn't get me where I want to go because they don't avoid the command base.

TPC's are functional equivalent of PowerMasters and the built in PowerMaster controller in the modern era ZW. TPC's (along with all other former IC Control devices) do not use the 450KHZ track signal for communications purposes. They use the serial data port on the Command Base. As long as you do not connect any wires to the antenna output of a Command Base there will be no 450KHZ signal to cause command equipment that uses the radio signals to go into command mode. No signal, they revert to conventional operation.

I see. Not having owned a TPC or separate PM, I didn't know they can run command engines as conventionals and that the command base could be wired to receive and pass on signals from the Cab-1 without also passing on the radio signal that command engines otherwise recognize. Do I have that straight now?

This still leaves the question, which one is better for conventional use, a TPC with a 135 or 180 brick, or a Z-4000 or MRC. It's appearing the majority opinion here is the Z-4000.

There's also the option of trying to muddle thru as long as possible off the handles or in command with the New ZW, but it's looking obvious that when it eventually goes down, I'll be up that well known creek without a paddle. And in the meantime if I continue operating in command, I'll get to stay on a first name basis with the UPS Shop folks with bringing them command engines for out of town electronic repairs.

The PowerMasters and modern era ZW's use the track RF signal coming from the command base. The TPC uses a serial line (9600 baud, 8 data bits, no parity, 1 stop bit) to get commands from the command base. No radio signal.

If you need less than 10 amps on a given block of track the Z-4000 is an excellent transformer. If you need more than 10 amps in a given block you don't have any choice. You would need to use a TPC and multiple bricks to supply the current required.

If you intend to run a pair of locomotives that have two open frame motors in each plus a long string of post war illuminated passenger cars you are going to be getting close to 10 amps in total current draw. That's a pretty heavy load for a single channel Z-4000 to sustain for any length of time.