For conventional control IMO, you have a lot of options. The Z4000 is a nice unit though it is big, and it will probably take any kind of load you throw at it. The Z1000 is a nice unit as well and I have heard good things about MRC products as well.
The post war KW and ZW are pretty solid units and they are really easy to keep going, they are easy to fix and work pretty well. As others have pointed out you need other protection, like fast reacting circuit breaker and/or a tvs to protect against issues with modern electronics, even when running in conventional mode. The other downside I am not sure modern transformers have (or don't have) is the starting voltages on KW's and ZW's tends to be pretty high i.e turn the handle and it goes from 0 to 6 volts which some people don't like. As far as being 50 years old, given the way these units were made, the age doesn't really matter all that much, and because the components are simple and replaceable, they could work for a long time..oh, yeah, they also don't have a bell button, but you can get a bell controller to work with them if you need it.Nice part is rebuilt ZW's are pretty cheap and plentiful.
I think if i had to choose and I had the money, I probably would look for a Z4000 either new or used for conventional control, but that is personal preference, any of the other options would work just as well IMO.
I was using a Z750 with Powermaster and CAB-1 to control my conventional and PS2 engines in conventional. From what I understand, using a TPC instead of the Powermaster would have given me more speed steps for slower (finer) speed control.
If I was going to go straight conventional, I think I'd prefer using a back and forward handle (like on the big transformers) instead of the CAB-1 Big Red Knob or the knob on the Z750 controller.
I have since installed DCS and I like the thumbwheel (can't believe I'm actually saying this) over the knobs. I thought the thumbwheel would have been touchy to use but so far it's been just fine. I also have only 2 wires going to my layout, not that "star" wiring everybody keeps talking about.
I'd like to get a Z1000 transformer, but so far the Z750 is doing the job, of course I don't run but 2 trains at most and only have 1 passenger train (which right now has no lights installed). The oldest engine (MTH RS3 with Locosound) I have and regularly run is probably less than 15 years old. I do have an old Lionel Scout but is sounds like a box-o-rocks and needs a new motor and siderods.
Ginsaw, let us know what the final decision is. Has anyone built their own power supply?
If I was going to go straight conventional, I think I'd prefer using a back and forward handle (like on the big transformers) instead of the CAB-1 Big Red Knob or the knob on the Z750 controller.
I have since installed DCS and I like the thumbwheel (can't believe I'm actually saying this) over the knobs. I thought the thumbwheel would have been touchy to use but so far it's been just fine. I also have only 2 wires going to my layout, not that "star" wiring everybody keeps talking about.
I'd like to get a Z1000 transformer, but so far the Z750 is doing the job, of course I don't run but 2 trains at most and only have 1 passenger train (which right now has no lights installed). The oldest engine (MTH RS3 with Locosound) I have and regularly run is probably less than 15 years old. I do have an old Lionel Scout but is sounds like a box-o-rocks and needs a new motor and siderods.
Ginsaw, let us know what the final decision is. Has anyone built their own power supply?
Besides having high starting voltage and slow acting circuit breakers, old transformer wattage is rated on its power consumption. The LW is rated at 125 watts but its continuous output is 75 watts and the ZW continuous output is 180 watts. Also some old transformers have floating grounds, and that can sometimes raise h*** with the electronics. The wattage rating of the new ones is on power output.
The short of it is, two Z1000s put out more power to the tracks than a postwar ZW.
The short of it is, two Z1000s put out more power to the tracks than a postwar ZW.
Hi Richard, What do mean by a "floating ground". I'm not familar with that concept. How does that effect modern electronics?
Very best, Don Johnson
Very best, Don Johnson
Don, floating grounds occur when the transformer creates its own ground which is not connected to earth ground. Modern electronics are typically designed to be connected to an earth ground. When such devices are connected to a floating ground the voltage may vary up and down, or even provide a potential to the electronics when none is supposed to be applied. The main thing you'll see are really weird problems with your electronics. I sometimes deal with floating grounds in my day job and as Richard said they are heck to deal with until they are found and eliminated.
Regarding the "which transformer" topic. I use a pair of G code CW-80s on my 6x9 conventional layout and so far enjoy them very much.
Regarding the "which transformer" topic. I use a pair of G code CW-80s on my 6x9 conventional layout and so far enjoy them very much.
quote:I remember someone on these pages saying that MTH was going to bring it back, but I have never heard them say that.
The box that connects to the Z-4000 is still a "current" product, the remote commander is history.
I've decided to give up on my CW-80 and my Z-1000 as my small work shop transformers; they just do not run some older (especially Weaver) engines as well as some newer ones. I've been looking for the MRC Dual Power Single (DPS) 135 watt transformer, but it has been discontinued and I have not found it in any shops.
It looks like the DPS's replacement is the MRC 1301 Throttle Pack AC, a 65 watt transformer. My concern with this one is it is a modular design like the Z-1000 and the advertisements state "advanced sine-wave circuitry" to run nearly all engines made. To me this sounds like it will have the same problems as the Z-1000, especially when they caveat it with the "nearly all" statement. I assume it is not a Pure Power design with a unmodified sine wave. Does anyone know if this transformer will run older Weaver engines?
As a backup, I'm trying to find my old Lionel 1033. If it doesn't self-destruct when I plug it in (has been packed away for 20+ years), I guess I can use it.
Ron
It looks like the DPS's replacement is the MRC 1301 Throttle Pack AC, a 65 watt transformer. My concern with this one is it is a modular design like the Z-1000 and the advertisements state "advanced sine-wave circuitry" to run nearly all engines made. To me this sounds like it will have the same problems as the Z-1000, especially when they caveat it with the "nearly all" statement. I assume it is not a Pure Power design with a unmodified sine wave. Does anyone know if this transformer will run older Weaver engines?
As a backup, I'm trying to find my old Lionel 1033. If it doesn't self-destruct when I plug it in (has been packed away for 20+ years), I guess I can use it.
Ron
I've been thinking over my options on this. Lots to consider. A few unrelated points -
Seems I recall with conventional running you need to install batteries in modern engines to avoid temporary losses of power between changes in direction and with Rail Sounds. It's been a long time since I've done that, but I think that was the deal. But, with a lot of engines that would be a project, and some brands are a real pain to remove the shell and get them back on. More so than I'd probably want to mess with.
There's also the loss of good slow speed control with conventional. I think with the internal PMs in the New ZW that slow speed management is marginally better than straight conventional. How much more a TPC would improve it I don't know. What does everyone think on that?
Also, since the New ZW has PMs, I can leave the handles up and CB on, and run non-electronic engines with Cab-1. You're addressing the TR ID but not the ENG ID. Or you leave the CB off and run any kind of engine off handles. With that you still have bell and horn control on electronic moderns. In fact you've got most all you need except remote coupler action. In other words, the New ZW's not that bad unless you get a board failure.
Now, buying a TPC leaves me with two New ZWs to dispose of. The problem with that is they come as a boxed set with the Power Houses or bricks and selling just the controllers would be almost impossible, whereas the bricks would be needed to run with the TPC. So that doesn't work real well.
Selling the New ZWs and bricks and command base/Cab-1 sets together makes more sense, which means skipping the TPC. That frees me up to buy a Z-4000 or MRC to replace the electronic control units.
Those are just some general thoughts on it. And of course, there is one other option which I've thought much on anyway. And that's to say, look, you're getting too old for all this in the first place...
Seems I recall with conventional running you need to install batteries in modern engines to avoid temporary losses of power between changes in direction and with Rail Sounds. It's been a long time since I've done that, but I think that was the deal. But, with a lot of engines that would be a project, and some brands are a real pain to remove the shell and get them back on. More so than I'd probably want to mess with.
There's also the loss of good slow speed control with conventional. I think with the internal PMs in the New ZW that slow speed management is marginally better than straight conventional. How much more a TPC would improve it I don't know. What does everyone think on that?
Also, since the New ZW has PMs, I can leave the handles up and CB on, and run non-electronic engines with Cab-1. You're addressing the TR ID but not the ENG ID. Or you leave the CB off and run any kind of engine off handles. With that you still have bell and horn control on electronic moderns. In fact you've got most all you need except remote coupler action. In other words, the New ZW's not that bad unless you get a board failure.
Now, buying a TPC leaves me with two New ZWs to dispose of. The problem with that is they come as a boxed set with the Power Houses or bricks and selling just the controllers would be almost impossible, whereas the bricks would be needed to run with the TPC. So that doesn't work real well.
Selling the New ZWs and bricks and command base/Cab-1 sets together makes more sense, which means skipping the TPC. That frees me up to buy a Z-4000 or MRC to replace the electronic control units.
Those are just some general thoughts on it. And of course, there is one other option which I've thought much on anyway. And that's to say, look, you're getting too old for all this in the first place...
quote:Seems I recall with conventional running you need to install batteries in modern engines to avoid temporary losses of power between changes in direction and with Rail Sounds.
That's basically true, but what you're losing is sound, not power. Depends in large part on what engines you are running. For example, batteries are no longer needed for MTH PS3 locomotives.
I agree that changing batteries in some locomotives can be a real pain in the butt. You can avoid repetitive "attacks" of that by using BCRs instead of batteries, but that can become costly if you have a good number of engines.
quote:There's also the loss of good slow speed control with conventional. I think with the internal PMs in the New ZW that slow speed management is marginally better than straight conventional. How much more a TPC would improve it I don't know. What does everyone think on that?
also agree that speed control is smoother and more consistent with command control, be it TMCC, Legacy, or DCS. I don't have any experience with newer generation ZWs, so can't comment on that.
Hi James, Regarding floating grounds. Wouldn't that be caused by a poor connection? Meaning the connecting has a volt drop & the current is seeking a path?
This concept is not new to toy trains. If you hook U to the outside rail on a 1033 or similar transfomer. Then hook a gateman to an insulated control rail. Power the gateman from fixed volts. The e-unit coil will transfer power in the oddest way & you can't control the trian.
On a cold winter day, try it. Will make you laugh & scratch your head. Many folks have spent hours trying to figure out what is going on. U is not always outside rail. Check the instruction booklets!
No point here, just interesting the way current behaves.
Very best, Don Johnson
This concept is not new to toy trains. If you hook U to the outside rail on a 1033 or similar transfomer. Then hook a gateman to an insulated control rail. Power the gateman from fixed volts. The e-unit coil will transfer power in the oddest way & you can't control the trian.
On a cold winter day, try it. Will make you laugh & scratch your head. Many folks have spent hours trying to figure out what is going on. U is not always outside rail. Check the instruction booklets!
No point here, just interesting the way current behaves.
Very best, Don Johnson
Don, sounds like you've described a floating ground with the 1033 U post gate man example.
quote:Originally posted by Marty Fitzhenry:
ROW and Z4000 for larger layouts. I like the Lionel 180 bricks but not the controller. Smaller layouts have many choices. I would go with the Z1000 or MRC on a smaller layout.
Large or small, stay away from older relics with modern electronics unless you use added protection.
Marty is aboslutely correct on this one. Both the larger transformers have meters which prevents your trains from "hiding a thouand sins". Both are sine wave.
Regards,
Lou N
With today's trains, in my opinion and based only on my own experience, you cannot go wrong with one or more Z4000s for operating a medium-size to large layout, or with one or more Z1000s for operating a small- to medium-size pike.
There are other good transformers out there, both old and new, but I have found that both of the above provide solid and reliable performance.
If the Right-of-Way transformer was still readily available, it would also rate top billing.
There are other good transformers out there, both old and new, but I have found that both of the above provide solid and reliable performance.
If the Right-of-Way transformer was still readily available, it would also rate top billing.
There's also I guess the option of the new ZWL. I'm not sure what exactly to think of it. Never seen one in person. I understand the handles are supposed to be more robust. That's certainly good.
But, the look of it with those meters sticking up is probably not a huge turn-on for me. And I'm certainly OK with meters, but how many times do you really need them? When using the LHS's Z-4000 I've found looking at the readings generally interesting, but I honestly can think of only one instance where the readings were a "game changer" on how I do anything. And that is the fact that the Z-4000 puts out more than the 18 VAC that TMCC engines are rated for. Besides that, the only other time I recall where the volt/amp readings were really important was in building the layout and installing the controllers and bricks. For that an actual voltmeter was required. Many of the readings needed (checking where isolated loops met at interlocking switches) couldn't be done any other way.
The biggest worry I see with the ZWL is, are they going to support it with parts and service long term better than with the New ZW?
Anyhow, what I'm thinking is that Lionel should offer a "no frills" far less pricey version of the ZWL intended for conventional running without the meters. That imo wouldn't be a bad idea.
But, the look of it with those meters sticking up is probably not a huge turn-on for me. And I'm certainly OK with meters, but how many times do you really need them? When using the LHS's Z-4000 I've found looking at the readings generally interesting, but I honestly can think of only one instance where the readings were a "game changer" on how I do anything. And that is the fact that the Z-4000 puts out more than the 18 VAC that TMCC engines are rated for. Besides that, the only other time I recall where the volt/amp readings were really important was in building the layout and installing the controllers and bricks. For that an actual voltmeter was required. Many of the readings needed (checking where isolated loops met at interlocking switches) couldn't be done any other way.
The biggest worry I see with the ZWL is, are they going to support it with parts and service long term better than with the New ZW?
Anyhow, what I'm thinking is that Lionel should offer a "no frills" far less pricey version of the ZWL intended for conventional running without the meters. That imo wouldn't be a bad idea.
I've got one of these as a back up to my Z-4000.I like it a lot although the buttons seem a little stiff.I don't use them as a rarely operate conventional but it's nice for the price and you get amp and volt meters.
http://www.wholesaletrains.com...ail.asp?ID=200303649
David
http://www.wholesaletrains.com...ail.asp?ID=200303649
David
I run 2 Z-1000's for my DCS, and like it better than my Z-4000 (Stolen) as the handles on the Z-4000 would get out of adjustment and other whacky stuff.
quote:Originally posted by CAPPilot:
I've decided to give up on my CW-80 and my Z-1000 as my small work shop transformers; they just do not run some older (especially Weaver) engines as well as some newer ones. I've been looking for the MRC Dual Power Single (DPS) 135 watt transformer, but it has been discontinued and I have not found it in any shops.
It looks like the DPS's replacement is the MRC 1301 Throttle Pack AC, a 65 watt transformer. My concern with this one is it is a modular design like the Z-1000 and the advertisements state "advanced sine-wave circuitry" to run nearly all engines made. To me this sounds like it will have the same problems as the Z-1000, especially when they caveat it with the "nearly all" statement. I assume it is not a Pure Power design with a unmodified sine wave. Does anyone know if this transformer will run older Weaver engines?
As a backup, I'm trying to find my old Lionel 1033. If it doesn't self-destruct when I plug it in (has been packed away for 20+ years), I guess I can use it.
Ron
HI Ron,
I was told by the folks at MRC that their Throttlepack does have a "clean" sine wave. I recently posted a review of it here: http://ogaugerr.infopop.cc/eve...802942717#5802942717
Hello
At present I use 2 LW and a CW-80 for track power on 3 loops on my 5X9 layout.
I my old 1010 to power the accesories.
I am researching maybe going to MRC, as I used them for years on my N scale layout for years with not a problem.
I run in coventional mode only.
Regards
At present I use 2 LW and a CW-80 for track power on 3 loops on my 5X9 layout.
I my old 1010 to power the accesories.
I am researching maybe going to MRC, as I used them for years on my N scale layout for years with not a problem.
I run in coventional mode only.
Regards
Lionel ZW's, KW's and even a Lionel Type Z transformer.
quote:Originally posted by Lou N:quote:Originally posted by Marty Fitzhenry:
ROW and Z4000 for larger layouts. I like the Lionel 180 bricks but not the controller. Smaller layouts have many choices. I would go with the Z1000 or MRC on a smaller layout.
Large or small, stay away from older relics with modern electronics unless you use added protection.
Marty is aboslutely correct on this one. Both the larger transformers have meters which prevents your trains from "hiding a thouand sins". Both are sine wave.
Regards,
Lou N
The MRC Dual also has two sets of amp and volt meters and gives a sine wave as well.
Several times I have not notice that a pilot wheel was off the track only for the Amp needle to say, "hey dummy, fix me!"
Like has been stated in other posts, there are a number of good transformers that would fill the need, only for the operator to decide what specific features they would like and how much he would like to pay.
Jim
quote:Originally posted by Allan Miller:
If the Right-of-Way transformer was still readily available, it would also rate top billing.
And I thank you Allan.
Lou N
You're very welcome, Lou! 
Speaking of the modern electronic ZW, anyone understand why the handles get so loose, and how to tighten them? And will they stay tightened for long?
The handles on my ZWC feel like they're about to fall off. But the ones on my New ZW haven't been used anywhere near as much and are still OK, for now. They should be structually the same as the ZWC. They're basically the same unit.
Anyone from Lionel or any toy train repair folks still listening in here?
The handles on my ZWC feel like they're about to fall off. But the ones on my New ZW haven't been used anywhere near as much and are still OK, for now. They should be structually the same as the ZWC. They're basically the same unit.
Anyone from Lionel or any toy train repair folks still listening in here?
It's a common complaint that the handles on the new ZW get loose, not sure how to tighten them. I'll cross that bridge when mine get loose. 
Hi Frank, I have a question on your LW. When you push the whistle button with modern trains, does it ring the bell or blow the whistle? Thanks.
Very best, Don Johnson
Very best, Don Johnson
The LW whistle button will blow the whistle unless you have it connected backwards to the track. There are some Lionel transformers, like the 1033, that connect the U terminal to the center rail, the ZW and KW connect the U terminals to the outside rails. I've never had an LW, so I can't say for sure what the correct connection for that one is.
HI, I recently got a LW. The odd thing is with U hooked to center rail as it should be, it rings the bell as best it can. With U to center rail it blows horn as best it can. I looked in Greenberg's wire diagram, it shows the rectifier is in opposite from most transformers. I haven't taken it apart to examine it closely. I put on a new cord when I got it, but didn't see any obvious modifications. I'll have to inspect the disc postion. But the wire diagram puzzled me.
I just wondered if anybody else has experianced this. By the way it doesn't work for hoot on electronic sounds, as would be expected it wouldn't. Fine with postwar.
Very best, Don Johnson
I just wondered if anybody else has experianced this. By the way it doesn't work for hoot on electronic sounds, as would be expected it wouldn't. Fine with postwar.
Very best, Don Johnson
I have been using the MRC Dualpower 027 for the last 12 years without any issues. It easily powers 2 loops of track along with all of the accessories and lights. The lights never dim and the trains never slow down. The only issue I have is that it seems to be incompatible with some of the high-falootin' electronic sounds associated with some Williams engines.
I just want to run trains and power lights. This transformer is perfect for conventional use.
I just want to run trains and power lights. This transformer is perfect for conventional use.
To get back to the original request, let me recommend the Williams/Atlas 80w transformer. It is reasonably priced, less ugly than a Z1000 and built like a tank. It provides plenty of juice for my mid-sized layout - I've run a postwar 2354 with four lighted aluminum cars with no issues. It also activates PS2 engine functions correctly. And the "accessory" control can be used to power sidings or a streetcar loop.
The V and Z transformers which were late pre- and early post-war construction can put 24V onto the rails. They were built for the Sta. Era!
Once in a while you see a V or Z for sale at the LHS. I'm told they fly off the shelves. Apparently their main use today is for accessories. I've looked at them in the past and they can be acquired for not much money.
I don't think I'd use that for my main track power however, unless I was really just trying to cut the expense over buying a Z-4000. Speaking of which, one of those in used condition maybe wouldn't be a bad idea. I know of at least one guy who bought a Z-4000 as a gift for a young child, who then quickly lost interest in toy trains. That's probably happened to others also. So these are likely available with very little use on them.
I don't think I'd use that for my main track power however, unless I was really just trying to cut the expense over buying a Z-4000. Speaking of which, one of those in used condition maybe wouldn't be a bad idea. I know of at least one guy who bought a Z-4000 as a gift for a young child, who then quickly lost interest in toy trains. That's probably happened to others also. So these are likely available with very little use on them.
hello Alan P..........
I have one of those Z1000's so how is it ugly ? LOL
the woman who loves toy trains
Tiffany
I have one of those Z1000's so how is it ugly ? LOL
the woman who loves toy trains
Tiffany
quote:Originally posted by Tiffany:
hello Alan P..........
I have one of those Z1000's so how is it ugly ? LOL
the woman who loves toy trains
Tiffany
I think he was referring to the fact that it looks more like an HO starter-set pack than a traditional O-gauge transformer. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder of course; if it works and you're happy with it then all is well.
Hello guys and gals........
if the Z1000 had horns and tail then i would call it ugly LOL. I never had any trouble with it so far so i guess its worth more than its weight in gold !!!!!
the woman who loves toy trains
Tiffany
if the Z1000 had horns and tail then i would call it ugly LOL. I never had any trouble with it so far so i guess its worth more than its weight in gold !!!!!
the woman who loves toy trains
Tiffany
quote:
Hi James, Regarding floating grounds. Wouldn't that be caused by a poor connection? Meaning the connecting has a volt drop & the current is seeking a path?
This concept is not new to toy trains. If you hook U to the outside rail on a 1033 or similar transfomer. Then hook a gateman to an insulated control rail. Power the gateman from fixed volts. The e-unit coil will transfer power in the oddest way & you can't control the trian.
On a cold winter day, try it. Will make you laugh & scratch your head. Many folks have spent hours trying to figure out what is going on. U is not always outside rail. Check the instruction booklets!
No point here, just interesting the way current behaves.
Very best, Don Johnson
quote:
Don, sounds like you've described a floating ground with the 1033 U post gate man example.
NOT a floating ground problem/issue. This is more operator error, a "common" mistake(pun fully intended).
On Lionel single train transformers, "U" is not common. On the 1033 family, it's "A". Trying to use "U" as common and power track activated accessories will do exactly as described. No floating ground, just the wrong common connection.
Hi Guys, What really sucks is the KW transformer. U is not a true common on that one & it has 2 throttles! It doesn't really have a ture common per se for all the fixed volts available.
I had one for a period of time & was able to trade it for a VW, finally a ZW... Boy that made life simple!
The guy that designed the KW must have never built a layout. You can't run track operated accessories such as a Gateman or switches on a resonable fixed volts, and use both throttles for trains. The 20v that's common to U just slams the poor fellow silly. (posts D-U). Then C-U, which is common to U is only 6v. What good is that? Now... the 14v C-D is perfect for accessories but can't be used for track activated or outside rail grounded accessories. That sucks! Ok you can hook C to the outside rail instead of U, but then the throttles only have 14v, not enough.
Ok, I'm off my soap box.
Very best, Don Johnson
I had one for a period of time & was able to trade it for a VW, finally a ZW... Boy that made life simple!
The guy that designed the KW must have never built a layout. You can't run track operated accessories such as a Gateman or switches on a resonable fixed volts, and use both throttles for trains. The 20v that's common to U just slams the poor fellow silly. (posts D-U). Then C-U, which is common to U is only 6v. What good is that? Now... the 14v C-D is perfect for accessories but can't be used for track activated or outside rail grounded accessories. That sucks! Ok you can hook C to the outside rail instead of U, but then the throttles only have 14v, not enough.
Ok, I'm off my soap box.
Very best, Don Johnson
quote:Originally posted by Tiffany:
hello Alan P..........
I have one of those Z1000's so how is it ugly ? LOL
the woman who loves toy trains
Tiffany
LOL! Tell your transformer I apologize, Tiffany! As Mike said, I just prefer the "black box" look. The Williams unit fits neatly into the spot where my KW used to be.
Alan
I reccomend a K-Line Power Chief. It has 120 watts of power, and you can find them for pretty cheap on Ebay.
quote:I reccomend a K-Line Power Chief. It has 120 watts of power, and you can find them for pretty cheap on Ebay.
Beware of the Power Chief - I have a few of these and do like them - HOWEVER, many of them are notoriously unreliable unless you are lucky and get a good one - this has been discussed here previously. Also, I think the Power Chief is rated at either 100 or 110 watts - not 120. The 120 used in the name of the product ("K-Line 120V" for example), is misleading and does not refer to wattage).
Another point on the MTH Z1000 - very good transformer - but I could never understand why there is no on/off switch - IMO a major oversight in the design.
John
TCA
The power chief is rated at 7 amps continuous... up to 126 watts output.
