Bring Them B-A-C-K! : Golden Gate Depot Heavyweight Passenger Cars

@Jtrain posted:

I think that we can conclude that it is prototypical that they do not match.  From looking at the few color photos that are available in books and websites, the 3rd Rail F3 (actually an F2) paint scheme, which is the original NdeM diesel scheme from the mid/late 1940’s, is a dark green with orange stripes, while the GGD passenger car scheme used on the NdeM 10-6 separate sale sleepers from the Eagle run, which is from the late 1950’s, is a nearly black green with red stripes and yellow lettering.  The NdeM diesel paint scheme changed from the green scheme to the black/red/yellow scheme in the late 1950’s/early 1960’s.  So, although there was a little bit of overlap in the later 1950’s, the nearly black green/red stripes/yellow lettering passenger scheme was mainly used with the black/red/yellow diesel scheme, and thus not really designed to match the original green diesel scheme, from what I can discern.

The NdeM heavyweight coaches/sleepers should match the NdeM 10-6 separate sale sleepers from the Eagle run.

Just following up on the NdeM color schemes.  Here is a side-by-side photo of the nearly black green with red stripes and yellow lettering scheme against a lighter green with yellow lettering and no stripes scheme.

https://www.lakestatesarchive..../Mexican/i-m8QNWc6/A

The lighter green would appear to match that of the NdeM F3 (F2) that 3rd Rail made.  Although the passenger cars in the linked photo are lightweights, perhaps we could also get some GGD heavyweights done in the lighter green scheme to match the F3 locomotives?

Any NdeM experts out there who could tell us whether the two different green schemes were a change over time or used for different trains in the same time frame?  Or maybe both?

Bringing this thread back, I have some on order the PRSL and B&M cars. But thought I’d throw another suggestion out there if it’s not too late.

D&H in Pullman green and NYC gray have never been done in O scale. The blue and yellow has been done but only by Williams I believe, very different than a GGD car.

http://www.accuratecustomfinis...he-heavyweights.html

Pennsy shadow line cars would be nice.  Cars would compliment the GGD Congressional sets. 

I may have missed it, but does anyone know the timeline on these?  I'm excited about finally getting some scale heavyweight cars.

@VistaDomeScott posted:

Pennsy shadow line cars would be nice.  Cars would compliment the GGD Congressional sets.

Absolutely! Did you email Scott? I’ve emailed him about shadowline cars & I think he needs to see more enthusiasm for them

I emailed Scott as well about shadowlined cars.

Does anyone have photos of shadowlined PRR heavyweights?  I'm not aware of a prototype for them.  Not that it totally matters, more of a curiosity.  I know of other roads that did them, but the closest I could find for the PRR was some very heavily modernized P70s in the Fleet of Modernism paint scheme. 

@IC EC posted:

I may have missed it, but does anyone know the timeline on these?  I'm excited about finally getting some scale heavyweight cars.

I don’t know the exact timeline, but I do know there are several projects ahead of the heavyweights. A good guess would be 6 months minimum, but probably more like a year.

@GG1 4877 posted:

Does anyone have photos of shadowlined PRR heavyweights?  I'm not aware of a prototype for them.  Not that it totally matters, more of a curiosity.  I know of other roads that did them, but the closest I could find for the PRR was some very heavily modernized P70s in the Fleet of Modernism paint scheme.

One of my Pennsy books has it.   I will try to find it.  I do not think I can take a picture of that and post it though, forum copyright issue?  I did not email Scott, I have bothered him enough about Amtrak and Southern.  Have not heard back on my request for undecorated Southern cars so I am laying low on writing GGD.

@VistaDomeScott posted:

One of my Pennsy books has it.   I will try to find it.  I do not think I can take a picture of that and post it though, forum copyright issue?  I did not email Scott, I have bothered him enough about Amtrak and Southern.  Have not heard back on my request for undecorated Southern cars so I am laying low on writing GGD.

For now, Send pic of car to Jonathan AND pic of reference book, page #.

PASSENGER CAR PHOTO INDEX - PENNSYLVANIA RAILROAD 1 - 1214 (rypn.org)

Jonathan, try this link. Car Number is 1157. Not very good pictures (3) but it's a start.

Pennsy Car Classification D78edR

russ

@pennsyfanman posted:

PASSENGER CAR PHOTO INDEX - PENNSYLVANIA RAILROAD 1 - 1214 (rypn.org)

Jonathan, try this link. Car Number is 1157. Not very good pictures (3) but it's a start.

Pennsy Car Classification D78edR

russ

Wow.  That's a very heavily modified D78.  Basically, a streamlined car at this point.  Thanks for that find.  I use that site all the time and haven't stumbled on this image. 

I know there are other cars that are not modified cars like that.  I will look for this in books when work is not interfering with fun.

It is possible I saw these shown in a video about the Pennsy as well.  Not sure where though.

In searching the internet I see that Lionel is offering a 2 pack of shadow lined PRR coaches in their 18" cars.   I also found a "microtrains" sleeper in this scheme, sent a screenshot of that to Jonathan. 

Jonathan, I sent you an email regarding offering the 12-1’s in the Southern Ry shadowline scheme.

@Dj'sOgaugetrains posted:

Absolutely! Did you email Scott? I’ve emailed him about shadowline cars & I think he needs to see more enthusiasm for them

I never herd the term shadowline referred to a PRR car. Do you have pics of examples?)

Personallzly I woukd like to see GGD heavyweights in the PRR F.O.M. scheme to compliment the one sleeper car done several years ago.

The PRR painted more than one type of heavyweight in the F.O.M. paint scheme.

Here are two SEABOARD AIR LINE shadowlined models.

@prrhorseshoecurve posted:

I never herd the term shadowline referred to a PRR car. Do you have pics of examples?)

I cannot post the pictures as they are copyrighted and taken from books.  I have sent those to Jonathan though.  There were 4 PRR Shadowline cars.  2 30 seat parlor / 1 drawing room cars and 2 lounge cars former diners. Thee 2 ex diners #1157 and #1158were heavily reworked.  This pointed out by Russ in an earlier reply.  Leaving 2 parlor cars as original heavyweights painted in this way. The John Hancock and  the Robert R. Livingston.  Cars 7042 and 7044 are 30 parlor seats and 1 drawing room.  They were exclusively for the Congressional and Senator.  The info is from Pennsylvania Railroad Historical and Technical Society book of car plans and paint schemes.  Excellent reference book btw, covers everything.  And yes, the term "Shadowline" was used by PRR.

To add to what VistaDomeScott wrote, the two Cafe Cars, numbers 1157 and 1158 PRR Class D78edR, plus Parlor cars, JOHN HANCOCK and ROBERT R. LIVINGSTON, car numbers 7042 and 7044, both 30 Chair, 1 Drawing Room cars, were all Shadowlined.

John Handcock is pictured on page 30 in PENNSYLVANIA PARLOR CARS by Robert A. Liljestrand and David R. Sweetland, which is still looking like a Heavyweight car where the Cafe Cars were complete Rebuilds.

russ

How about SAL Orange Blossom Special cars?  These had unique paint and lettering identifying them as part of the OBS.  They are distinct from the standard SAL Pullman Green coaches and sleepers, but certainly you could mix a few standard green cars into an OBS consist to replicate a busy "winter season" train running extra cars.  I'd be in for a set.

On the Baltimore & Ohio cars, what are the differences between pre and post war?  Are both blue & grey?

Same question on Erie cars, are the post war cars going to be two tone green?   

@VistaDomeScott posted:

On the Baltimore & Ohio cars, what are the differences between pre and post war?  Are both blue & grey?

Same question on Erie cars, are the post war cars going to be two tone green?   

Scott, on all road names being offered, the prewar cars have clerestory roofs and square windows while the postwar cars have rounded roofs to accommodate air conditioning and larger sealed "picture windows".

Thanks Will !

For the PRR pre-war... I've recently read the PRR T&HS book on passenger paint and livery... (great eye-opening resource, and would highly recommend)

Are the pre-war passenger liveries the "full monty" of the orange window sashes, one gold strip above window, two gold stripe and one black strip below window, with olive underbody/strips c. 1930? (Similar to lionel broadway set 6-84816)

Or will these be similar to the last GGD run of one gold strip above window, and two below with black underbody/trucks c. 1940?

I am in either-way, but curious.

I have been on the fence on a 6 or 7 car B&O order.  My hangup is the lack of a Dining car and Observation car.  Not sure I could locate such cars easily.  I read about the issue with old tooling gone for plastic, understand.  But still at a standstill here on ordering with just coach and 2 different sleepers.

@VistaDomeScott posted:

I have been on the fence on a 6 or 7 car B&O order.  My hangup is the lack of a Dining car and Observation car.  Not sure I could locate such cars easily.  I read about the issue with old tooling gone for plastic, understand.  But still at a standstill here on ordering with just coach and 2 different sleepers.

I thought I saw it mentioned that diners and observation cars will be done following the coaches and sleepers.  I’m contemplating a Santa Fe set myself.

@Traindiesel posted:

I thought I saw it mentioned that diners and observation cars will be done following the coaches and sleepers.  I’m contemplating a Santa Fe set myself.

That would be great!  I did not catch that mention anywhere.  I will check with GGD this week.

I don't know that it was ever announced on their website, I want to say that was word from either Scott or Jonathan somewhere on the forum.

All our tooling still exists for Coaches, Sleepers, Head End Cars and Diner/Observation cars. Our builder is busy, and orders are coming in slowly for the coaches, which is why they get pushed back behind projects that work better for us. It's not tooling, it's not getting enough pre-orders or reservations. It's a business.

Scott Mann

@VistaDomeScott posted:

I have been on the fence on a 6 or 7 car B&O order.  My hangup is the lack of a Dining car and Observation car.  Not sure I could locate such cars easily.  I read about the issue with old tooling gone for plastic, understand.  But still at a standstill here on ordering with just coach and 2 different sleepers.

Sometimes you have to build your consist one or two cars at a time. It’s great when a named train is done all at once - but it’s not going to happen all the time. Patience can eventually win. I’ve built a nice do-it-yourself B&O National Ltd and am working on an NdeM Aztec Eagle, DRG Royal Gorge (with MP thru cars), and Penn Texas.  I make them as prototypical as possible. You can diversify your consist with thru sleepers too.  It’s quite satisfying when you finish your consist and the car at a time chase is a bit of fun too.
Cheers 😉

@Jtrain posted:

Any NdeM experts out there who could tell us whether the two different green schemes were a change over time or used for different trains in the same time frame?  Or maybe both?

While an NdeM expert is probably a bit of an oxymoron, I've done my share of research lately and honestly, it is still a bit of a mystery.  Steam running well into the 1960's depending on location, multiple paint schemes in service over time, and just a lack of consistency overall.  This is what makes modeling great though.  For the period most modelers are interested in the Pullman green scheme with "Dulux" gold lettering and the red stripe is likely the most common scheme for 1950's through the late 1960's and early 1970's.  Deduction only, but it appears that the all Pullman green paint with Dulux lettering a silver roof is a later scheme and early 1970's.  In the 1980's all the various passenger names were brought under a single scheme of all green, silver roof with "SCP" and "Mexico" markings.  We won't even get into the blue and orange scheme too.  Again, lots of variety which makes it interesting.

For the heavyweight car runs, the paint scheme will be consistent with the colors done on the 10-6 Aztec Eagle cars from the Eagle run; Pullman green, Dulux lettering, and an orange/red stripe.

@GG1 4877 posted:

While an NdeM expert is probably a bit of an oxymoron, I've done my share of research lately and honestly, it is still a bit of a mystery.  Steam running well into the 1960's depending on location, multiple paint schemes in service over time, and just a lack of consistency overall.  This is what makes modeling great though.  For the period most modelers are interested in the Pullman green scheme with "Dulux" gold lettering and the red stripe is likely the most common scheme for 1950's through the late 1960's and early 1970's.  Deduction only, but it appears that the all Pullman green paint with Dulux lettering a silver roof is a later scheme and early 1970's.  In the 1980's all the various passenger names were brought under a single scheme of all green, silver roof with "SCP" and "Mexico" markings.  We won't even get into the blue and orange scheme too.  Again, lots of variety which makes it interesting.

For the heavyweight car runs, the paint scheme will be consistent with the colors done on the 10-6 Aztec Eagle cars from the Eagle run; Pullman green, Dulux lettering, and an orange/red stripe.

Jonathan,  
I agree - the best path is to replicate the paint used for the NdeM 10-6 from the Eagle run. A yet to be issued NdeM 10-5 will also have this paint.
My research has yet to find a NdeM “modernized” heavyweight.  (I like picture evidence. I don’t see Any).  Its looking like they just jumped to buying secondhand streamlined cars from American roads. (IMO).

For those interested, There are 2 key NdeM research books (pix posted in the MP/T&P Eagle thread) - one by the TRRA Historical Society on the Aztec Eagle (primarily) and a second, a new Morning Sun book on Mexican trains.    

Cheers 😉

The Dormitorio!  Kicking myself I didn't order a second one.

@BlueFeather posted:

The Dormitorio!  Kicking myself I didn't order a second one.

Yah me too !!! 🫣😳😵‍💫😖🫢🤪🤪And they aren’t plentiful.  😳         🤞🤞🤞🤞 that we get a Second chance with the 10-5s - soon. 🤔🤔
Cheers 😉

@BlueFeather posted:

The Dormitorio!  Kicking myself I didn't order a second one.

While former 10-5 and 10-6 sleepers, largely from NYC provided the bulk of sleeper accommodations in the 1970's and on, heavyweight 12-1 and other floorplans of Pullman Standard Dormitorio cars still ran in service until the end of long-distance passenger operations in Mexico in 1997.  Those are available as part of this heavyweight run of cars, and I plan on adding some to my fleet.

One thing I've seen consistently in many photos is the mixture of heavyweight and streamlined cars in consists.  One thing I feel I missed out on was riding the long-distance trains in Mexico.  I am sure would have been quite the adventure. 

What might be an appropriate combination of coaches, 8-1-2 sleepers, and 12-1 sleepers for a NYC green set behind a new Lionel Hudson?   Would all the cars be NYC?  Scott’s website has some Pullman options.  Which would be Pullman?  The 8-1-2 pull-down menu has Pullman options but the 12-1 does not.  What might the roofs be?  Pre or post?

@VADarthDad posted:

What might be an appropriate combination of coaches, 8-1-2 sleepers, and 12-1 sleepers for a NYC green set behind a new Lionel Hudson?   Would all the cars be NYC?  Scott’s website has some Pullman options.  Which would be Pullman?  The 8-1-2 pull-down menu has Pullman options but the 12-1 does not.  What might the roofs be?  Pre or post?

I'll let the true NYC experts weigh in, but I can offer some general thoughts.  New York Central was quick to adopt lightweight cars for long distance trains starting in the late 1930's.  While heavyweight cars continued to run, many were repainted into the two-tone gray scheme to match the new cars.  I don't believe there were many if any Pullman green modernized New York Central cars outside of head end cars.  Head end cars tended to keep the green paint later than other cars in the fleet also.  On the NYC Modernized cars seem to have typically kept the monitor roof instead of getting a round or balloon style roof.  Modernization is most clearly seen in the replacement of windows and the addition of air conditioning to the cars.

As for cars marked "PULLMAN", the Pullman Company until it was hit with an anti-trust lawsuit in 1944 owned the sleeping cars and provided the porters for the cars and leased the cars to the railroads.  This would mean that "PULLMAN" would be in the large letterboard in the center of the car while the specific railroad name would be in small letters next to the vestibules.  Once Pullman was forced to sell the sleeping cars to the railroad, the "PULLMAN" ended up in small letters next to the vestibule while the road name was in larger letters in the center of the car. 

I have a two tone gray NYC Pullman with "PULLMAN" in the center and "NEW YORK CENTRAL" by the vestibules, but I don't have a photo of it like I thought.  Many sleepers from this era also simply said "PULLMAN" on the side. 

Head end cars, coaches, lounges, and diners were typically lettered for the NYC.  The observation would be either a Pullman car or a NYC lettered car based on configuration.  If it was a coach / lounge seating arrangement, it would have likely been lettered for the NYC.  If it had sleeping car berths, then it would be likely lettered Pullman. 

As for a typical consist, it pays to do a little research.  Many east-west New Central trains in the heavyweight era ran as mixed consists.  Again, the NYC experts should weigh in on this. 

12-1s were a very common plan with 12 sections and 1 drawing room.  The section berths were the more affordable accommodations.  8 section, 1 drawing room, 2 compartment sleepers which provided more private rooms.  Both are common Pullman plans, so I don't think there is a correct ratio for a generic train outside of what you like.

I realize this isn't very concise or that clear, but in general I might recommend a baggage car, a RPO, a few coaches, and a diner all lettered for New York Central.  I would then consider 12-1 and 8-1-2 sleepers and the observation car labeled for Pullman when that car eventually comes around as the GGD tooling is a 3 compartment plan with a lounge.  That would be 8 cars which might be a bit long for a home layout but could fill in for any number typical trains and would look great behind a scale Hudson.  If you wanted to go down to five cars, a baggage-coach, coach, diner, and two sleepers would make a nice train too.  Many trains ran without observations so the rear markers would often be on the last sleeper as is the case with this green SP 12-1 in my collection.   

Finally understanding that this run of cars is for sleepers and coaches only, I might consider 3 coaches (non-modernized), a 12-1 Pullman, and an 8-1-2, Pullman.

Any of the shorter Lionel, MTH, K-Line, Weaver, or Atlas baggage cars could be used for now for the head end, but colors are all over the place between those manufacturers if that matters to you.

The path to the other cars all depends on a strong run of these cars.  Apologies for the length of this post!  Final thought is that I really like these cars a lot.  A few from my collection.  I've been a bit indiscriminate when it comes to road names, but I really love scale length cars in O!

First is a PRR coach.  I have coaches in PRR, ATSF, CB&Q, New Haven, Lackawanna, Erie & Canadian Pacific.

These are all 12-1s.  My 8-1-2s are all PRR.  I also have 12-1s in Erie and Lackawanna.

I just recently picked up another 8-1-2 in PRR.  It is a duplicate name in the Oak series, so I might re-letter it to "SCRUB OAK".    Then again, my prototype brain might kick in and I'll stick with an actual name like "Bartram Oak".  I still like the "Scrub Oak" idea because that is the kind of oak trees we have here in Arizona.

“Bartram Oak" vs "Scrub Oak". Hmmm. I can identify with the dilemma of keeping things prototypical but wanting to throw in a funny anachronism. I am a big fan of scale GG1s. At first, I was not impressed with the Polar Express scale GG1 that Lionel is offering. Its just not prototypical to the movie. Then I had to admit the movie is a cartoon, and the Polar Express train is fictitious. Quite disorienting for me with regards to what it means to be prototypical. I like the Polar Express and GG1s, so maybe I should go ahead and order a prototypically fictitious Polar Express GG1. It’s so confusing.