@gunny posted:

I see no reason to pay a container surcharge.

Well, it should be noted that these engines haven't even been made yet, and the manufacturer doesn't require payment until the items get shipped, so it's entirely possible that (assuming container rates are still lower at that time) the container surcharge will be discarded. Of course, if that happens, the OP by cancelling his order won't be receiving his engine. Maybe something to talk to the manufacturer about if it's of concern.

As an aside, this particular manufacturer sells premium products, and so isn't exactly the cheapest game in town. If a potential buyer is concerned about something like shipping cost, perhaps this isn't a fit. That's OK - it isn't for many.

Out of curiosity I looked up "container surcharge" and turned up this article from a year ago

I agree with Ben that $60 to ship a plastic diesel seems excessive and add to that the diesel is not a very large diesel. I was going to order one as well but I am going to really think about it. I really love their products but for my budget almost $900 for a GP7 is something I have to think over.

I'd say you're not alone.

@bluelinec4 posted:

If this was one of those engines never done before I might have said ok  But its a GP7 that has been done a million times already  I love the stuff from this manufacturer but now for nearly 900 for a diesel  Sorry

The second run of GP7s are shipping already?

@rplst8 posted:

The second run of GP7s are shipping already?

No.  They have not gone into production yet.  The Sunset Models newsletter from October 8th stated that reservations are closing in preparation for production to proceed.

Currently in production are the 2nd run E5/E6s, the 1948 20th Century, and the MILW EP3 and scheduled to arrive in January of 2023.  GP7/9s and the "Chessie" cars are next in the que per the newsletter.

That definitely is shenanigans Ben. I would imagine that any business that was going to have costs that were incurred by shipping to themselves, that they were to pass onto their customers, that they would notify their customers of such charges. All the businesses I have worked for, anytime a cost increase was going into effect for shipping charges, the entire customer base was notified if the cost increased. Definitely something that is not right, that is for sure.

In my experience, The vendor in question is extremely ethical and honest. To cast undeserved bad motives on him...ie "shenanigans"...is beyond acceptable and I have to stand with a good guy.

Scott's track record of ethical dealing and honest trading dosen't need defending by me but yet here we are.

To impugn "shenanigans" is the last refuge of the scoundrel. I'll let it go at that...

John

I never mentioned a vendor or anybody working for any vendor    Read MY posts   I absolutely did not disparage anybody or any company   Just brought up some excessive charges for discussion   And for those saying that I cant afford it or the model is beyond my means I would rather buy something for less money and not get raped on shipping charges  I have ALOT of trains and never had to pay 90.00 for shipping   That is ridiculous      I dont care if the model is made of gold and was unpacked and repacked 50 times  I refuse to throw my money out the window   I can buy at Atlas reefer with that money

Let’s look at the math:

A high end car dealership on the East Coast can ship a customer’s car to the West Coast for about $2,000.00. The vehicle weighed 4800 pounds.  
Someone sells a 10 pound locomotive and charges $60.00 to ship plus a container surcharge as container prices have dropped sharply?   Do your math and you’ll see who is paying more per pound…

I just had a home heating oil delivery today.  The driver told me it’s a good thing I called last week, because the price is up $.80 per gallon.  The oil is the same oil that’s in the storage tank at the previous price.  Hmmmm.  Lots of great things about this country but American greed…?

Possibly a commitment to purchase has a different meaning on the East Coast than elsewhere...Duly noted....

John

@John Meyncke posted:

Possibly a commitment to purchase has a different meaning on the East Coast than elsewhere...Duly noted....

John

Possibly east coast people are smarter than the average bear on the left coast and know when they are getting screwed.  

Completely NOT possible... the only person I see getting "screwed" ,as you so elegantly put it, is the person you committed to purchasing from and are now backing away from...

John

@John Meyncke posted:

Completely NOT possible... the only person I see getting "screwed" ,as you so elegantly put it, is the person you committed to purchasing from and are now backing away from...

John

Now I see why people in California have to pay 6 dollars a gallon. By the way do you want to buy a bridge

@GG1 4877 posted:

No.  They have not gone into production yet.  The Sunset Models newsletter from October 8th stated that reservations are closing in preparation for production to proceed.

Currently in production are the 2nd run E5/E6s, the 1948 20th Century, and the MILW EP3 and scheduled to arrive in January of 2023.  GP7/9s and the "Chessie" cars are next in the que per the newsletter.

Well the OP stated he’s not interested in buying a GP7 for “nearly $900” so I’m wondering what engine it even is.

I HATE the surcharges BS and agree with Ben. Tell me what you want or need to charge me and I'll decide if I want to buy. I don't care what goes into your costs or profit margin. The end sale price is what I want to know. KISS!

Gerry

Depending what the item is...

How's your genetic longevity doing?

Good chance that about 5+ years after the production lot in question has been delivered to the accepting hoi polloi, the items therein will begin to hit the secondary market.

Bingo!

Not only a good chance for a reduced item price (albeit maybe NOT based on the 5+ year value of the dollar in an inflationary world), AND the cost of shipping at that time will have made $90 seem like a bargain. 

Then again, in the waning septuagenarian years of this old phart, recollection of anything 5+ years prior is a challenge!

Actually, "Container Surcharge" doesn't fit secondary market shipping costs very well.  There ya go!

In any case, you'll have another chance...if the passion has returned.

Choices.  Perspectives.  Opinions.  TEHO.

OK guys and gals....woke up this morning to way too many reports/alerts to this post.  Lets keep the personal comments to yourself please.  Frankly, I think the point has been made here.  I have no idea who the vendor is and for anyone to openly speculate and perhaps wrongly is unfair so stop it.

@gmorlitz posted:

I HATE the surcharges BS and agree with Ben. Tell me what you want or need to charge me and I'll decide if I want to buy. I don't care what goes into your costs or profit margin. The end sale price is what I want to know. KISS!

Gerry

Agreed Gerry.

@bluelinec4 posted:

What the heck is a container surcharge?  And I ship many items that I have sold all over the country and it has never cost 60.00 to ship an engine 

Shipping costs are definitely getting out of hand. I received a double A unit set from this vendor in 2019 with $60 for shipping. Earlier this year I received an engine from the same vendor with $75 for shipping and no container surcharge. I just received an order confirmation for a passenger set with a very much higher amount for shipping and the $30 container surcharge. I tend to believe he has been trying to hold the line on shipping costs by absorbing some of those costs and its just gotten to the point he can't do that any more. No shenanigans just the state of inflation today. A year ago I shipped a diecast loco (large, heavy package) from Va to Montana via UPS and the cost was about $90.

I don't like the high cost for shipping the passenger set but its something unique that no other importer is going to do correctly so I have no intention of cancelling the order. If anything the increased cost of any new train item plus the increasing shipping costs is going to limit what I purchase in the future.

Ken

While I certainly see Ben's point, I can also understand the other side.  With the wacky way that shipping charges have been all over the map, it's pretty hard to predict what shipping costs will be next week, never mind next year!  Since prices for containers went from around $2,000 to $20,000 in about a year, it really does give one pause!  OTOH, it does appear that container prices are coming back down to some semblance of reality now, so that may become a moot point by the time these products ship.

I do agree with Gerry, just tell me what it costs and I'll decide about my purchase.

I have a different perspective.  When a product is available at a steep discount through a volume reseller and with free shipping, how much extra cost is built into the original pricing of that product?  It has to be somewhere because the nature of business is to at least turn some form of a profit.

@GG1 4877 posted:

I have a different perspective.  When a product is available at a steep discount through a volume reseller and with free shipping, how much extra cost is built into the original pricing of that product?  It has to be somewhere because the nature of business is to at least turn some form of a profit.

Very true unless it's some sort of closeout that they're just trying to clear out old stock that hasn't sold in years.

Just as a general point of reference, vis a vis shipping, the costs are going up. Comparing a car being shipped vs a smaller item may not be a valid comparison, the person shipping likely has a contract with the company they ship through, something a dealer of toy trains can't do. Amazon and other big online retailers offer free shipping, when it certainly isn't free to them, but they have deals structured to allow them to make that affordable (there have been theories promoted that shippers are charging individual people and small businesses a lot more to make up for the discount prices Amazon gets for shipping; so far I don't think anyone has been able to prove that, though I can see where that comes from).  It also doesn't hurt that shipping these days is not exactly a competitive business, you have two major shippers (leaving out USPS) , and concentration in the rail and trucking businesses have led to lessened competition as well.

I have seen gouging on shipping (Ebay is notorious for that, person has item at 'dirt cheap price'..then charges like 125 in shipping), but I suspect what you are seeing isn't gouging, it reflects what they are seeing. like with inflation in general, a lot of businesses for a while tried to eat cost increases, but they can't do that forever. Doesn't mean there isn't greed out there,I am pretty sure there is in more than a few cases, but for example the vendor that tacked on a container charge likely has been eating some of the cost increase and can't do it any more. The cost of containers soared like 1000% during the pandemic and I am not so sure they have come back down all that much for example.

BTW I am not defending or condoning anything, just saying that what you are seeing is not necessarily gouging, I would guess a lot of it may be costs finally being passed on.

I understand why members here are apprehensive with surcharges and price increases.

Our train budgets are shrinking. Catastrophic inflation has destroyed our disposable income (see M1, M2, M3 index). Using pre Boskin commission metrics, we are 12% poorer right now than a year ago, so it's not helpful to say you the items you ordered two years ago were outside your budget.

Unfortunately our hobby is going to suffer in this new economy

You are stealing Ben's post. The new name of this post should be NATTERING NABOBS OF NEGATIVITY.

Gerry

OK folks -- A number of you here have mentioned domestic shipping costs in the $60 - $90 range. Time for a reality check. I just happen to have a similar sized engine (KLine EP5) sitting here on my office floor in factory packaging. The outer box measures 5"x7"x22" and weighs 7LBS. Using the post codes for Cambridge, MA (02138) and Palo Alto, CA (94304) - East coast and West coast for those of you that don't know your geography - I checked domestic retail shipping rates. USPS: Parcel Select - $29.25; Priority Mail - $36.15; Priority Mail Express - $94.50.  UPS Ground - $26.32; UPS 3 Day Select - $76.07; UPS second Day Air -$97.31. Also as I said, "in a free market economy suddenly discount shippers have popped up", thus depending on your choice of carrier and level of service, using one of those discount shippers, comparable rates would be $15.43 to $80.60. Those discount prices include buying and printing a shipping label on your home computer and either letting the mailman pick it up or handing it to any UPS driver. I'm offering this information not to disparage anyone or to reflect negatively on any company, but simply as a point of information.

Many years ago I bought a few items from a dealer over a few years period. Sort of a regular customer. I purchased a set of 4 GGD passenger cars. Cars were paid for and shipped with a shipping cost. Back then. You purchased over the phone and just expected the shipping cost to be fair. I never asked how much.  A short time later I received an invoice that there was an error in the shipping cost. I’m guessing the oversize of the box was underestimated and I was expected to pay the difference. It was a significant amount at the time.  I’m guessing maybe dealers with an account get billed monthly by the shipper. I disregarded it. I felt it was part of their business to know shipping costs. This shop I probably visited once a year if that. On a visit the next year I had a few of cars in my hands. Not the owner but a worker asked if I had shopped there before. Brought up my account and it showed I owed X amount. I told him I’ll put everything back. He informed me that the invoices sent out weren’t well received and the matter would be forgotten.

FWIW. I use Fed Express when I ship most items. In the example that "modeltrainsparts" pointed out, Fed Express ground would be $29.88. And if you sign up for account with Fed Express, you get a discount as well. In this case the costs would be $28.22. I have used Fed Express a lot and have never had any issues with lost of damaged packages - can't say that when I used UPS.

They offer bigger discounts based on the how many times one uses them for shipping.

RAY

@gmorlitz posted:

You are stealing Ben's post. The new name of this post should be NATTERING NABOBS OF NEGATIVITY.

Gerry

Not negativity

It's reality

@GG1 4877 posted:

I have a different perspective.  When a product is available at a steep discount through a volume reseller and with free shipping, how much extra cost is built into the original pricing of that product?  It has to be somewhere because the nature of business is to at least turn some form of a profit.

I did some pre-orders from Mario's Trains this year who are well known for free shipping on orders over $50. For the most part, they price things on par or a little above many of the other online vendors but the free shipping easily makes up for it and then some.

Where do "extra" fees stop? Obviously there are shipping fees and we all get that.  But I've also seen additional fees for Handling, Materials, Insurance, Processing, Fuel Surcharge and now a Container fee?  That's fine if you want to charge for those things but be up front about them and don't tack them on at the end of invoice hoping nobody will notice or complain.

The last car I bought had "Dealer Documentation Fees" (another completely bogus money grab) but they were up front about the fee and I considered it as part of the complete purchase price when I negotiated the deal. While on the topic of bogus car fees another one that burns me is "Shop Supplies" from the mechanic. 😠

I get leery about pre-orders from dealers who don't offer free shipping because when the product arrives in their shop they now have the chance to tack on extra fees to improve a profit margin.

This shipping issue makes me glad that I believe, at least for the moment, that I already have all the trains I want and ever dreamed of having.

And, compared to most train collectors and operators, my train collection (about 60 locomotives) is significant, but far from enormous, IMO.

I just had 3 Diesels ship from TW for $30 so you are correct about $60 being High and same shipping co. I had not thought about this before but you have a great point. But this is definitely food for thought something does seem off.

I don't know if this is directly on point or not, but whenever I've shipped a locomotive, to get it repaired, I've used UPS.

In my experience with UPS. you pay through the nose when you ask them to package/box a locomotive; it's much cheaper to package/box the locomotive yourself, and just have them ship it UPS Ground.

And, I believe there are less expensive ways to ship packages than UPS. However, my experience with UPS is very good; shipping was done on time and never had any shipping damage.

@Cogen1981 posted:

I understand why members here are apprehensive with surcharges and price increases.

Our train budgets are shrinking. Catastrophic inflation has destroyed our disposable income (see M1, M2, M3 index). Using pre Boskin commission metrics, we are 12% poorer right now than a year ago, so it's not helpful to say you the items you ordered two years ago were outside your budget.

Unfortunately our hobby is going to suffer in this new economy

Sounds like your an economics teacher   It wasnt ordered two years agoso it has nothing to do with being helpful  Look through MY posts   I never said this was outside my budget 

@modeltrainsparts posted:

- I checked domestic retail shipping rates. USPS: Parcel Select - $29.25; Priority Mail - $36.15  UPS Ground - $26.32; .

This is spot on    And if you have an account with somebody as RAy Of Sunshine noted its cheaper than that.   I ship alot of stuff all over the country and KNOW what the rates are  $90.00 is highway robbery and anybody that wants to pay it because the item is going to be hard to find doesnt have enough trains . 

@gmorlitz posted:

You are stealing Ben's post. The new name of this post should be NATTERING NABOBS OF NEGATIVITY.

Gerry

Gerry  What the heck is a NABOB   Do you have to be a Phillie fan to know?  LOL

@Arnold D. Cribari posted:

I don't know if this is directly on point or not, but whenever I've shipped a locomotive, to get it repaired, I've used UPS.

In my experience with UPS. you pay through the nose when you ask them to package/box a locomotive; it's much cheaper to package/box the locomotive yourself, and just have them ship it UPS Ground.

And, I believe there are less expensive ways to ship packages than UPS. However, my experience with UPS is very good; shipping was done on time and never had any shipping damage.

Of course, everyone's experiences are different, since there are so many variables in each of the shipping systems. I had UPS totally trash an order I'd placed, then lie about it for a week while they attempted to re-pack it to pretend it hadn't happened.  4 out of 5 cars of an MTH Premier Blue Comet set that I'd gotten for a steal in an auction for $150 were damaged, along with 2 out of 4 cars from another set. Of course, UPS wouldn't pay the cost I'd have to pay to replace them, just what I'd paid, and they wanted the damaged items back (no idea what they did with them).

And, of course "shipping cost" to a retailer isn't the same as the actual cost of transporting the box from point A to B. You need materials to pack it in, and have to pay someone to pack it, none of which is free. There's literally no such thing as "free" shipping, just costs hidden in the price already. Some folks like it like that, some understand they're paying for it, one way or the other.

@bluelinec4 posted:

Sounds like your an economics teacher   It wasnt ordered two years agoso it has nothing to do with being helpful  Look through MY posts   I never said this was outside my budget

I was trying to be sympathetic to your situation

The added costs to production and distribution are all due to the economic distortion created by inflation and supply chain distortion. You don't have to be a professor to understand this, this is Econ 101.

Wether you like it or not the vendor needs to recoup the added expenses.

I did not specifically direct the comment of the item being ordered 2 years ago and outside the budget at you. Im sure other people here are experiencing same situation

Worst thing about this thread is I am old enough to remember that “NATTERING NABOBS OF NEGATIVISM” is a quote from Vice President Spiro Agnew.