Comments on Lionel's scale ATSF PAs

I have the older TMCC models and the shells are well done paint wise... However, note that you may want to hold off purchasing the 2010 Legacy version for the newly released version with faux stainless steel plating...also note the pulling power for the 2010 was a bit anemic. Thus you may want to purchase the powered B unit as well.

That said, the pilots are the ugliest offender, but in an effort of time, I closed up the gap between the units for the biggest bang for the buck. Next will be to put a closed fixed pilot on the front of the locomotive.

I have the 3rd Rail PAs in SP Daylight and Santa Fe and I have the Legacy PAs in SP Daylight. The difference between the 2 is orders of magnitude. The 3rd Rail PAs look fantastic and run incredibly smooth the Lionel PAs look ok, run good and sound great. I’d buy the 3rd Rail again I’ve been staying away from Lionel til they get their QC ironed out

https://ogrforum.com/...ature-catalog?page=5

Per this post, these units don't have the operating Mars light that the TMCC ones do, and for no apparent reason they have a white background behind the "Indian Head" logo on the side as seen in the image above.

If this new run is decorated prototypically, my guess is it will come down to your need of a fixed pilot and Legacy or not.

I have the PRR Legacy PA and blind idler wheels are the lead wheels of the six wheel front trucks on the power and dummy units.  They are out of gauge, apparently as designed, so these engines are capable of going through the relatively sharp curves of tinplate track.  As a result, the locomotives often de-rail, when going through  Ross switches.  Truly a first!  My other trains simply do not de-rail on Ross switches.  On my TMCC PAs , the idler wheels are the third or rear set of the six wheel trucks, and de-railing is not a problem.   I sent the engine to Lionel, thinking that somehow the trucks had been mounted backwards.  The loco was returned with no change.  I was told the trucks were mounted as designed.  As a result, I rarely operate the engine and I have a very expensive "shelf queen."

I don't have Lionel PA's; mine are 3rd Rail.  But I have seen the Lionels run at train shows, and the Legacy ones are very nice.  They run well, sound good, and look impressive in action.

I can't use Kadees because of a pesky reverse curve, so I'll leave the coupler issues to others.  However, there is one thing that immediately draws my eye every time I see a Lionel PA1, either standing or running, and that's the position of the windshield wipers.  That's because I am particularly attentive to that particular detail.  They should have been mounted further inboard to allow for the full 140 degree sweep of the original Trico-Folberth wipers as delivered from Alco.  Everyone but me will be fine with them where they are.

In photos, I always notice the pilot m-u hoses which should not be there without nose m-u electrical receptacles, but have never paid attention to it on one in person.

Are the basic bodies identical?  I did some 2-rail work on a Legacy set and was impressed with the accuracy of the basic body and truck sideframes.  For some reason I recall the fuel tank being too long.  It was a while ago . . .

And will the simulated stainless include the rivets and bats?  As I understand it, those are painted silver on the Sunset variant.

I won't bore you again with my nickel silver ATSF PA.  Quite happy with it.

I have the recent 3rd Rail Rio Grande Silver PA-PB-PA.  They are very nice.  The simplicity of the installation of the fixed pilot was wonderful and the details are very good.  The only flaw to me are the number board lenses that are flimsy and sag into the car body.  That small flaw notwithstanding, they are just not Legacy.  An ATSF  Legacy PA-PB-PA MU with a superbass B unit would be very appealing to me so long as the details are close to the prototypical engine.  No doubt the Rio Grande engines will be offered in the Volume 2 catalog, but I have no buyer's remorse for purchasing the 3rd Rail versions.    

Matt Makens posted:

I have the 3rd Rail PAs in SP Daylight and Santa Fe and I have the Legacy PAs in SP Daylight. The difference between the 2 is orders of magnitude. The 3rd Rail PAs look fantastic and run incredibly smooth the Lionel PAs look ok, run good and sound great. I’d buy the 3rd Rail again I’ve been staying away from Lionel til they get their QC ironed out

The shells go very well with each other, BUT,  The SP decoration is so different that you cannot put them next to each other.  I was hoping to use the Sunset PA2s with Lionel PA1s but...  Not a chance.  Also, to me, the grossly undersized Lionel radiator fan looks silly in a consist with the Sunset models.

I don’t run them together, I compared them and the 3rd Rail locos look significantly better, run silky smooth and sound good. The 3rd Rail is a much better looking and more accurate model with fixed pilots and what not. It just doesn’t have legacy which does sound much better

Matt Makens posted:

I don’t run them together, I compared them and the 3rd Rail locos look significantly better, run silky smooth and sound good. The 3rd Rail is a much better looking and more accurate model with fixed pilots and what not. It just doesn’t have legacy which does sound much better

Just curious, do the Lionel units have both trucks powered?

You know Jack, I never checked. I believe they do but I can’t diffinitivley say for sure 

Matt Makens posted:

I don’t run them together, I compared them and the 3rd Rail locos look significantly better, run silky smooth and sound good. The 3rd Rail is a much better looking and more accurate model with fixed pilots and what not. It just doesn’t have legacy which does sound much better

I will be putting my Lionel Bumblebee DRGW shells on Sunset chassis "one of these days".  2-railing the Lionel chassis is a royal PITA, I quit trying.  As someone noted above the fuel tank is also noticeably too long but did allow a larger speaker.

I'm working on increasing the radiator's fan size.  

Yes, both trucks are powered.

I sold my Lionel set to C Sam 

Doug, how come they’re so far apart?

Lionel is listing the new PAs as having both A units powered. I am curious if they will continue the use of two vertical motors, a single vertical motor, or a single motor driving both trucks like the smaller yard switchers and 3rd Rail.

Pete

Check out the 3rd Rail site - Scott is listing a rerun of the PA's.

rrgeorge posted:

Check out the 3rd Rail site - Scott is listing a rerun of the PA's.

Pretty close to being canceled due to lack of interest.

I spent $2100.00 plus a hefty shipping and handling fee on my 3rd Rail Rio Grande PA-PB-PA MU.  Each of them is powered.  The MSRP for a Lionel Legacy PA-PA set and PB is $1500.00.  Street price for Legacy PA-PA sets have been around $800.00, but that is with 1 powered and 1 unpowered unit.  Maybe the margins will change with since both units powered now and the street price may go up, time will tell.  Regardless, it is safe to say you would not have to pay 1500 bucks for the Legacy units.  That is a considerable difference in cost.  Of course I will have to spend a lot of time fixing the pilots and installing Kadees, which was a snap on the 3rd Rail Alcos, but not 600 bucks worth of time!   IF the detail on the Legacy Alcos is close to 3rd Rail, then I think I will give Lionel a chance.  

T4TT posted:

When I clicked on the image of the PA on the 3rd rail webpage it took me to the ordering page, but the PAs were not on the list, just a bunch of E units. 

About two thirds of the way down the page after the E7s and E6s is the reservation for the PAs. 

http://www.3rdrail.com/reservation.htm

Often forgotten in the discussion on the price difference not just the detail, but the superior drive, all wheels powered, higher quality motor, ball bearings on all axles, and the smaller production runs.  The trucks alone are a work of art and are fully sprung - not just a single casting. 

Everyone has their own preference and the Lionel models are very good for the price.  The 3rd Rail ones are just better models in many respects.  However to be fair, neither is perfect. 

Yes, I blew the batten color based on a bad reference out of one of my ATSF books.  Overall though, stunning models and incredible runners.

Got the offset number boards on the Tuscan PRR version though!

Hot Water posted:

Matt Makens posted:

I don’t run them together, I compared them and the 3rd Rail locos look significantly better, run silky smooth and sound good. The 3rd Rail is a much better looking and more accurate model with fixed pilots and what not. It just doesn’t have legacy which does sound much better

Just curious, do the Lionel units have both trucks powered?

All the Lionel scale diesels I've seen have both trucks powered.

Don't own any of the small switcher types, IIRC they have one motor and a driveshaft to the other truck.

Sorry, I totally missed the PA drop down box.  Here is a link to the page.  I notice the price has gone up 50 bucks per unit.

T4TT posted:

Sorry, I totally missed the PA drop down box.  Here is a link to the page.  I notice the price has gone up 50 bucks per unit.

Unfortunately a reality of economics due to price increases for parts and labor (not due to politics) and the number of units anticipated to be sold.  I have been tempted by a 3R ATSF B unit and another 2R PRR unit, but my train budget isn't high for now.

BobbyD posted:

Hot Water posted:

Matt Makens posted:

I don’t run them together, I compared them and the 3rd Rail locos look significantly better, run silky smooth and sound good. The 3rd Rail is a much better looking and more accurate model with fixed pilots and what not. It just doesn’t have legacy which does sound much better

Just curious, do the Lionel units have both trucks powered?

All the Lionel scale diesels I've seen have both trucks powered.

I have seen some pretty nice looking Lionel F Units, that some friends have (Western Pacific and CB&Q) that have only one truck powered, and they have a difficult time hauling the Atlas California Zephyr passenger train.

Don't own any of the small switcher types, IIRC they have one motor and a driveshaft to the other truck.

Hopefully the Lionel PA units will have the all stainless sides and fuel tank plus an operating Mars light  

Otherwise no go.

Lionel PA A/A diesels 82220 through 82241 in 2015 Sig. Catalog have one dual motored power unit and one dummy unit.  Flanged idler wheels are on all four trucks.  On my engine, 82235 PRR unit, the idler wheels are the first wheel set of  the  lead truck on the power unit, as well as the lead truck on the dummy unit. On the TMCC PAs, the idler wheel sets are the rear pair on the six wheel trucks of both power and dummy units.  The idler wheels on the rear motorized truck of the power unit  and those on the unpowered dummy unit are correctly mounted, their position being the rear wheel set.  

BobbyD posted:

https://ogrforum.com/...ature-catalog?page=5

Per this post, these units don't have the operating Mars light that the TMCC ones do, and for no apparent reason they have a white background behind the "Indian Head" logo on the side as seen in the image above.

If this new run is decorated prototypically, my guess is it will come down to your need of a fixed pilot and Legacy or not.

These are mine and just to clarify a bit, both of these are Legacy and the UP model may have the MARS light if memory serves me correctly as does our TMCC 'Bumble Bee' D&RG's. The only one that doesn't is this Santa Fe Legacy model which I have since sold and bought Doug's TMCC ABA set. It will eventually get Kadees and fixed pilots when I get settled in my new place. Probably a winter project!

Was it ever determined why (if at all) the Legacy units seemed to lack pulling power? I didn't run mine enough to notice...

Hot Water posted:

BobbyD posted:

All the Lionel scale diesels I've seen have both trucks powered.

I have seen some pretty nice looking Lionel F Units, that some friends have (Western Pacific and CB&Q) that have only one truck powered, and they have a difficult time hauling the Atlas California Zephyr passenger train.

Don't own any of the small switcher types, IIRC they have one motor and a driveshaft to the other truck.

 

Really? Which model numbers are these?

Don't know of any Lionel scale F units with only one truck powered, all the powered F units have two can motors, one over each truck.