Was Lopos that camera place in downtown Detroit? I went there with my dad in 1968... if that is the same place...
I have a '68 or '69 lionel catalog from there packed away somewhere!
The Lionel #637 Steamer was my first locomotive, and came with the Super "O" set that I received on Christmas morning in 1960. This engine was run extensively, and always on Super "O" track. The rollers have bit of grime, but have no grooves whatsoever. The slight amount of grime appears to be from my tubular track given its width. (As you can tell by the clarity of the first photo, there is no chance that I would be hired as a crime scene photographer.)
Here are the photos:
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Cool Dennis...
Super O Bob posted:Was Lopos that camera place in downtown Detroit? I went there with my dad in 1968... if that is the same place...
I have a '68 or '69 lionel catalog from there packed away somewhere!
I don't know if it moved to downtown Detroit. When I grew up it was located in the northeast section of Detroit. Here's a thread that I posted asking for information and memories about Lopo's. There are a number of posts to the topic that are very enjoyable and quite memorable by people who remember visiting Lopo's:
colorado hirailer posted:I am very unconvinced that any current, and certainly past tube rail, track system l know about is what l want, and has been an obstacle. I would like to see an article in OGR showing all commonly used O scale track, in good clear side-by-side photos. I want simple to use, non -proprietary, compatible, but REALISTIC track for high rail use. I have plenty of Marx 0-27 and 0-34 tube track for a historical 1940's temporary holiday layout, and it looks funny under modern locos that can even make those curves.
Been a while since I read this, but as I recall it had almost of the track systems available these days with pictures. It describes the different track types, their pros & cons and tells a little about each track type and tips on using it. Pretty good book, IMO. I also find Riddle's writing an easy read and quite understandable. It helped me decide on a track system when I got back in the hobby in 2011.
The only two currently made tracks that I know of that are not tubular are Atlas-O and MTH Scaletrax. Both are solid nickel silver rail. Of the two, Atlas has a better selection of curves, crosses, switches, etc. Scaletrax lacks a good selection of switches and other stuff. So it's user selectable as to what one prefers.
Super O Bob posted:.....
Copper is much softer than steel...
....
U just cant cut hardend steel with soft copper!
....
I'm late to the party here and I have no experience with Super O or Snap Track, but I did work with copper and steel during my working life. I agree that it would be difficult for copper (much softer) to groove, destroy or whatever happens to the rollers (steel, much harder).
I can't say it's impossible, but I would be really surprised? Also, it would be very interesting to know why, how, etc. how that could happen. If the cause was not arcing that is. At least it would be to me anyway.
Super O Bob posted:prrhorseshoecurve posted:Super O Bob posted:If lionel redesigned super o or even came up with an all new design for a more scale like track WITHOUT ROADBED so i can do that part myself, i would be delighted...
I just like to keep it all Lionel. These high end trains should be running on a high end lionel track...
Then why did you not go Scaletrax? It's as close to Super O in today's world as one can get.
Well first off like everyone else mentioned, alot of it is i had super o as a kid...
As for scaletrax, I didnt like the thin ties... they didnt look right to me. This track does look great ballasted...
I am not familliar with MTH, but do they have roller wear on that track with the thin center rail? I dont know what material scaletrax center rail is... help mth guys?
Both Scaletrax and Atlas O track have solid nickel silver rails. They are similar in appearance. Atlas O has more available in curve sizes, switches, and crosses. I prefer the Atlas O, which is the track I use on my layout.
RTR,
Is Atlas track readily available? It's certainly attractive.
I have two layouts, both with Atlas O track. The older one was built 19 years ago when the track was first offered and it has been satisfactory ever since. You should not have difficulty finding a seller - or contact Atlas O directly.
MELGAR
That would be my choice if i was not a super o guy... it is expensive...
Bob said:
"I am not familliar with MTH, but do they have roller wear on that track with the thin center rail?"
Bob,
I have MTH RealTrax on my permanent layout. I haven't noticed any roller wear but don't run the same locomotives repeatedly, or, anywhere near as often as when I was a young school aged boy with two locos. I love the switch track, and have quite a few. As to my decision process, I didn't want to spend the required time to ballast that much track, and, also liked the ability to quickly change the layout configuration without having to unsettle ballasted track.
Obviously, RealTrax has a markedly different appearance than Super "O", but it makes an attractive "Toy" train layout.
Note to MELGAR,
Thanks for the info. As noted above, Atlas is a very attractive track.
rtr12 posted:Super O Bob posted:.....
Copper is much softer than steel...
....
U just cant cut hardend steel with soft copper!
....
I'm late to the party here and I have no experience with Super O or Snap Track, but I did work with copper and steel during my working life. I agree that it would be difficult for copper (much softer) to groove, destroy or whatever happens to the rollers (steel, much harder).
I can't say it's impossible, but I would be really surprised? Also, it would be very interesting to know why, how, etc. how that could happen. If the cause was not arcing that is. At least it would be to me anyway.
When I met my train doctor today, I brought up the subject of Super O track. He only has a few pieces in his collection, so he is not that familiar with it. But, he immediately said it is known to wear out rollers, and that the middle rail is like a knife because it is so much thinner than tubular track rail. This is consistent with above physics analysis of Melgar, a retired engineer who worked on the Hubble Space Telescope!
I believe the softness of the thin copper middle rail mitigates roller wear.
Yes that thought has been with us for 40 plus years...
Arnold D. Cribari posted:rtr12 posted:Super O Bob posted:.....
Copper is much softer than steel...
....
U just cant cut hardend steel with soft copper!
....
I'm late to the party here and I have no experience with Super O or Snap Track, but I did work with copper and steel during my working life. I agree that it would be difficult for copper (much softer) to groove, destroy or whatever happens to the rollers (steel, much harder).
I can't say it's impossible, but I would be really surprised? Also, it would be very interesting to know why, how, etc. how that could happen. If the cause was not arcing that is. At least it would be to me anyway.
When I met my train doctor today, I brought up the subject of Super O track. He only has a few pieces in his collection, so he is not that familiar with it. But, he immediately said it is known to wear out rollers, and that the middle rail is like a knife because it is so much thinner than tubular track rail...
I believe the softness of the thin copper middle rail mitigates roller wear.
That should be the case. But it means that the wear is occurring on the copper rail.
MELGAR
Dennis GS-4 N & W No. 611 posted:RTR,
Is Atlas track readily available? It's certainly attractive.
As far as I know it’s available now. They had supply problems a few years ago but those have been resolved. My lhs has it .
MELGAR posted:Arnold D. Cribari posted:rtr12 posted:Super O Bob posted:.....
Copper is much softer than steel...
....
U just cant cut hardend steel with soft copper!
....
I'm late to the party here and I have no experience with Super O or Snap Track, but I did work with copper and steel during my working life. I agree that it would be difficult for copper (much softer) to groove, destroy or whatever happens to the rollers (steel, much harder).
I can't say it's impossible, but I would be really surprised? Also, it would be very interesting to know why, how, etc. how that could happen. If the cause was not arcing that is. At least it would be to me anyway.
When I met my train doctor today, I brought up the subject of Super O track. He only has a few pieces in his collection, so he is not that familiar with it. But, he immediately said it is known to wear out rollers, and that the middle rail is like a knife because it is so much thinner than tubular track rail...
I believe the softness of the thin copper middle rail mitigates roller wear.
That should be the case. But it means that the wear is occurring on the copper rail.
MELGAR
I have examples where the copper bus clips eventually wear away. The corners usually start if they are a little high. Keep in mind this is usually on the hand made track where things are not fitting perfect. Here is a pic of a random section of hand made wider radius curve. The corner has worn off. I have better examples to find, but my finding its the soft copper that goes away.
The center rails also get really smooth as you run your hands over them after a period of use.
This track is ready for cleaning. You can see the trail of grime on the center rail.
Melgar...Saw that you are an Aero Engineer!... So am I. I worked on designing Jet Fighters though...
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BlueComet400 posted:If an extinct track system would ever be re-issued, why not the K-Line Super-Snap? It looks very similar to Super-O, but unlike Super-O, all O-gauge trains, from tinplate to modern, will run on it--even the switches. We had a pile of Super-O straight track many years ago, and the only thing it was good for was shelf track. Tinplate trains won't run on Super-O as the rail profile is too low. The tooling for the Super-Snap track must be around somewhere, all it would take is someone willing to produce it.
John
The K-Line supersnap would get my vote. Several years ago RMT was dumping their supply of supersnap track so I picked up quite a bit to redo my track system for my 9' by 12' layout. I had used original Lionel 0 gauge. Through EBay I was able to pick up additional track and it now seems that 0-Line is producing switches and RMT has remained in business and still sells supersnap.
I was able to obtain 42" curves but nothing greater. Is supersnap by 0-Line still in production?
JohnF
JohnF, to my knowledge the O Line track is no longer being produced. Regardless of brand, it all came from the K-Line tooling. I have a pile of O-72 switches, some RMT, some K-Line, and some O-Line, and they're all marked K-Line on the bottom. If you look around, you can still find it.
I recall reading an article once with the title fairly close to:
"Old Tooling Never Dies"
-- obviously a great title with some excellent, implicit humor. The author then went on to methodically trace the intriguing and tortuous path of many of the tools and dies that have been used for countless decades to make many of the O Gauge trains from the past (and present), going back to roughly the 1930's.
One of the themes of the article was that, although expensive, many tools have a value that may extend far into the future. Other manufacturers often buy the tool(s), and again commence production, sometimes in a more limited fashion. Other times, the vintage dies become an additional line in the product portfolio of a major manufacturer. (In this regard, as I recall, Lionel's O-27 was actually from a prior manufacturer's product line.) And, BLUECOMET 400's post cites additional, more recent support for this author's theme.
So hopefully, if the Super "O" dies still exist, they might find new life in another era.
I thought Super Snap was Super O till I got up close. A pal runs on it. Great track also , very quiet; but I still like Super O over all others.
I'm in the minority ( 
am the?), which both dissapoints and elates me. Disappointed for doubts (which can't be avoided) and happy because others haven't had issue. Happy to see better rollers than even a few decades ago too.
The wheel code issue shook loose another memory of "shaggly" worn ties just inside the rails from flanges and shiny "rail staples" (fasteners). (A few bumps wouldn't have ever deterred me, lol). I think I cut a finger on one, but really only totally recall looking at my finger, lol. It actually could have been anything on that one.
Thanks for the layout compliments. It really is a lot of "junk", though my view may be skewed by growing up with a REAL collector as an elder (White glove stuff). 1. I couldn't afford to go some routes 2. Making things from "nothing" was something instilled by both sides of the family from Grandparents that lived the depression and taught me the value of self reliance, and dealing with your present station in life the best you can. 3. That it doesn't have to be big, expensive, or even pretty to be fun; that's in your head only if you let it stay there 
4. Anyone can do it. There isn't a whole lot of methodically applied thought or effort, it's sort of an experiment on lots of alternatives to following exacting techniques. I do that often. Elsewhere I have a tunnel I made of, plaster, powdered joint compound, latex spackle, wood filler, & a spot of crappy epoxy. It's been about 3-4 years now, no cracks. And that's all I really wanted to know; Would it crack? . I also got a cleaner basement closet out of it
The plaster and joint compounds were older than I am.
Dennis GS-4 N & W No. 611 posted:I recall reading an article once with the title fairly close to:
"Old Tooling Never Dies"
-- obviously a great title with some excellent, implicit humor. The author then went on to methodically trace the intriguing and tortuous path of many of the tools and dies that have been used for countless decades to make many of the O Gauge trains from the past (and present), going back to roughly the 1930's.
One of the themes of the article was that, although expensive, many tools have a value that may extend far into the future. Other manufacturers often buy the tool(s), and again commence production, sometimes in a more limited fashion. Other times, the vintage dies become an additional line in the product portfolio of a major manufacturer. (In this regard, as I recall, Lionel's O-27 was actually from a prior manufacturer's product line.) And, BLUECOMET 400's post cites additional, more recent support for this author's theme.
So hopefully, if the Super "O" dies still exist, they might find new life in another era.
Dennis:
Could the article to which you refer be “Toy Train Tooling is Forever"? This article, subtitled "A to K”, written by Ed Boyle and Dave Seaman, was published in the January 1999 issue of OGR Magazine. Among other tooling, the article discussed the streamlined passenger car, box car, stock car and refrigerator car tooling originally developed by American Model Toys (aka Auburn Model Trains). Different parts of that tooling were subsequently used by Kusan, Kris Model Trains (that's the "A to K" connection) and Williams among others. Williams by Bachmann still uses the AMT box car, stock car and refrigerator car tooling.
Bill
Super O Bob posted:That would be my choice if i was not a super o guy... it is expensive...
Atlas O Track isn't as much expensive on the secondary market than other scale track type systems and you save a bundle of cash as well. Best yet the Atlas O track can't fail as much as other track systems and if it does, can be repairable too!
Dennis GS-4 N & W No. 611 posted:RTR,
Is Atlas track readily available? It's certainly attractive.
Earlier reply was from my phone, which I don't like using for this stuff. I looked around a bit today and Mr Muffin, Charles Ro, Nassau Hobby all have Atlas track in stock. I didn't check every piece, but I imagine they could get it if they were out of stock on something. I spot checked switches as well and they had those too. During the shortage my LHS got me the track I needed, it was the switches that were really hard to come by.
Super O Bob posted:That would be my choice if i was not a super o guy... it is expensive...
Atlas O MSRP is a bit high, it used to be similar to Fastrack, but I have fallen behind on the comparisons lately. If you got to one of the forum sponsors that handles Atlas track, they give varying amounts of discount. If you shop around you can get it at fairly reasonably pricing. Scaletrax used to be less, but they don't have the selection (switches, curves, etc.) that Atlas does. I haven't compared those recently either. Oddly, Scaletrax is the only track type my LHS does not stock? I've never been able to thoroughly examine it up close, first hand.
Also, as stated above there is the secondary market. I purchased some from different secondary sources with mixed results. Some had been painted, some switches were in pretty rough shape and some did not work. That was the only way you could get switches for a while a few years ago during the shortage. I might still consider used track, but any more switch purchases will be brand new ones for me.
Bill said:
"Could the article to which you refer be “Toy Train Tooling is Forever"? This article, subtitled "A to K”, written by Ed Boyle and Dave Seaman, was published in the January 1999 issue of OGR Magazine...."
Thanks Bill! That is very likely the article, and, I really enjoyed it. My recollection may have faded over the nearly 2 decades since that issue came out, but, I think that your excellent detective work has been a success. I've been a subscriber to OGR for longer than that period of time, so I would have read that article.
Perhaps, an update titled "Old Tooling Never Dies"....? 
PRR and Bill,
Does the term "secondary" market have a generally accepted meaning, and, in a more specific sense, does it really refer to the "second-hand, or "used" market? Or, is secondary market broader than second-hand, or "used". I unfortunately must have looked at the Atlas track when there was a shortage.
I think the shortage ended 2-3 years ago, but then it took a while to get everything re-supplied and the dealers re-stocked because of the backlog and demand created by the shortage.
I think of secondary as 'used', such as the from the OGR For Sale forum, ebay, etc. Some dealers have used items as well, they sometimes buy used stuff. I got 4 used switches from my LHS at a very good price during the shortage. The original buyer decided he wanted a different size switch and traded them back in for the new ones. They were barely used and looked just like new, still had the boxes and everything.
Super O Bob posted:Melgar...Saw that you are an Aero Engineer!... So am I. I worked on designing Jet Fighters though...
That's what I did too... Grumman F-14, Gulfstream 2 and 3, X-29 Forward-Swept-Wing, Pratt & Whitney engines, Sikorsky helicopters. Aerodynamics, CFD, Flight Vehicle Dynamics, Structural Analysis. I miss it - but enjoy being retired.
MELGAR
MELGAR posted:Super O Bob posted:Melgar...Saw that you are an Aero Engineer!... So am I. I worked on designing Jet Fighters though...
That's what I did too... Grumman F-14, Gulfstream 2 and 3, X-29 Forward-Swept-Wing, Pratt & Whitney engines, Sikorsky helicopters. Aerodynamics, CFD, Flight Vehicle Dynamics. Structural Analysis. I miss it - but enjoy being retired.
MELGAR
I did structural dynamics and flight loads on AV-8B Harrier, F/A-18E/F Super Hornet, T-45A, Aerodynamics and Fighter Configuration Design in Phantom Works, worked AF-X, JAST, Classified Activities and then Joint Strike Fighter JSF, and several others. It was a great time... now moved back home, I Design Ford Mustangs!
Super O Bob posted:MELGAR posted:Super O Bob posted:Melgar...Saw that you are an Aero Engineer!... So am I. I worked on designing Jet Fighters though...
That's what I did too... Grumman F-14, Gulfstream 2 and 3, X-29 Forward-Swept-Wing, Pratt & Whitney engines, Sikorsky helicopters. Aerodynamics, CFD, Flight Vehicle Dynamics. Structural Analysis. I miss it - but enjoy being retired.
MELGAR
I did structural dynamics and flight loads on AV-8B Harrier, F/A-18E/F Super Hornet, T-45A, Aerodynamics and Fighter Configuration Design in Phantom Works, worked AF-X, JAST, Classified Activities and then Joint Strike Fighter JSF, and several others. It was a great time... now moved back home, I Design Ford Mustangs!
Hope we can get together someday. A lot to talk about. Would like to see a meeting of OGR Forum members...
MELGAR
You Bet
Bob,
That means you are working on a later version of Mustang....
The p-51 Mustangs below literally won the war during WW II with their range and speed during the deep penetration bombing of Germany. Before the Mustang, the Army-Air Force's B-17's had to continue unescorted on their bombing runs, because earlier fighters couldn't fly far enough. All that changed when the Mustang fighter planes joined my father's 100th Bomb Group. Even. during this era, we all owe a debt of gratitude to aerospace engineers like MELGAR and you, as evidenced by the list of aircraft that you have worked on during your careers.
Of course, Lionel was also doing its part during World War II, with the Lionel factory in N.Y. essentially converted to wartime production. I'm sure that a lot of critical dies had to be created during that historic time period!
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Dennis GS-4 N & W No. 611 posted:Bob,
All that changed when the Mustang fighter planes joined my father's 100th Bomb Group. Even. during this era, we all owe a debt of gratitude to aerospace engineers like MELGAR and you, as evidenced by the list of aircraft that you have worked on during your careers.
Thanks. Appreciate it. But, like you, it was my father who was with the US Army in Europe during the winter of 1944-45 - not me. Kneeling at center...
MELGAR
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Dennis GS-4 N & W No. 611 posted:Bob,
That means you are working on a later version of Mustang....
The p-51 Mustangs below literally won the war during WW II with their range and speed during the deep penetration bombing of Germany. Before the Mustang, the Army-Air Force's B-17's had to continue unescorted on their bombing runs, because earlier fighters couldn't fly far enough. All that changed when the Mustang fighter planes joined my father's 100th Bomb Group. Even. during this era, we all owe a debt of gratitude to aerospace engineers like MELGAR and you, as evidenced by the list of aircraft that you have worked on during your careers.
Of course, Lionel was also doing its part during World War II, with the Lionel factory in N.Y. essentially converted to wartime production. I'm sure that a lot of critical dies had to be created during that historic time period!
Another hobby is WW2 hircraft history and development. I know it well! The mustang in foreground looks like a P-51H with the tall tail. Its not original with the two place canopy. Its hard to tell if its a real H model from this angle, would have to see wing leading edge. Looks to me like its a restoration with two place canopy and cobbled that tall tail on another D/K. I bet Melgar will also tell you that taller tail is needed because those steep aft-facing slopes off that two place canopy generate bad wake and wipe out vertical tail effectiveness. The fuse doesnt quite look like an H from here, but its a odd angle.
The background mustang is a P-51D/K, would have to see the prop to tell which one it is.
Buddy of mine at McDonnell would referbish Mustang Rudders in his garage and sell them to the resto guys. He was an airframe A&M. He would be asked for changes all the time...
MELGAR posted:Dennis GS-4 N & W No. 611 posted:Bob,
All that changed when the Mustang fighter planes joined my father's 100th Bomb Group. Even. during this era, we all owe a debt of gratitude to aerospace engineers like MELGAR and you, as evidenced by the list of aircraft that you have worked on during your careers.Thanks. Appreciate it. But, like you, it was my father who was with the US Army in Europe during the winter of 1944-45 - not me. Kneeling at center...
MELGAR
My Dad was on a Destroyer Escort in the pacific. He was the Radar repair guy. He sat in CIC fixing and adjusting the equipment. Radar was new in those days... he went to Tokyo bay at the end of the war.
He was part of the sub hunter team... thats what DE's did. Hedghogs and depthchargers...
MELGAR posted:Super O Bob posted:MELGAR posted:Super O Bob posted:Melgar...Saw that you are an Aero Engineer!... So am I. I worked on designing Jet Fighters though...
That's what I did too... Grumman F-14, Gulfstream 2 and 3, X-29 Forward-Swept-Wing, Pratt & Whitney engines, Sikorsky helicopters. Aerodynamics, CFD, Flight Vehicle Dynamics. Structural Analysis. I miss it - but enjoy being retired.
MELGAR
I did structural dynamics and flight loads on AV-8B Harrier, F/A-18E/F Super Hornet, T-45A, Aerodynamics and Fighter Configuration Design in Phantom Works, worked AF-X, JAST, Classified Activities and then Joint Strike Fighter JSF, and several others. It was a great time... now moved back home, I Design Ford Mustangs!
Hope we can get together someday. A lot to talk about. Would like to see a meeting of OGR Forum members...
MELGAR
Hey Melgar, we had a guy come from the 'iron works' you might have known. This is testing my memory... Carlos Perez? Not sure about the last name. McDonnell hired him around '93 or '94... he was an aircraft designer and brought another guy with him. Anyway, worked with him on the end of AF-X i think and beginning of JSF. Wondered if you knew him...
Soon we may need to go back to our old jobs. America will only have paper airplanes to keep us safe.
Super O Bob posted:MELGAR posted:Dennis GS-4 N & W No. 611 posted:Bob,
All that changed when the Mustang fighter planes joined my father's 100th Bomb Group. Even. during this era, we all owe a debt of gratitude to aerospace engineers like MELGAR and you, as evidenced by the list of aircraft that you have worked on during your careers.Thanks. Appreciate it. But, like you, it was my father who was with the US Army in Europe during the winter of 1944-45 - not me. Kneeling at center...
MELGAR
My Dad was on a Destroyer Escort in the pacific. He was the Radar repair guy. He sat in CIC fixing and adjusting the equipment. Radar was new in those days... he went to Tokyo bay at the end of the war.
He was part of the sub hunter team... thats what DE's did. Hedghogs and depthchargers...
My father was a Tech Sergeant. Serviced trucks and Jeeps. I believe the picture was taken in France.
MELGAR
Super O Bob posted:MELGAR posted:Super O Bob posted:MELGAR posted:Super O Bob posted:Melgar...Saw that you are an Aero Engineer!... So am I. I worked on designing Jet Fighters though...
That's what I did too... Grumman F-14, Gulfstream 2 and 3, X-29 Forward-Swept-Wing, Pratt & Whitney engines, Sikorsky helicopters. Aerodynamics, CFD, Flight Vehicle Dynamics. Structural Analysis. I miss it - but enjoy being retired.
MELGAR
I did structural dynamics and flight loads on AV-8B Harrier, F/A-18E/F Super Hornet, T-45A, Aerodynamics and Fighter Configuration Design in Phantom Works, worked AF-X, JAST, Classified Activities and then Joint Strike Fighter JSF, and several others. It was a great time... now moved back home, I Design Ford Mustangs!
Hope we can get together someday. A lot to talk about. Would like to see a meeting of OGR Forum members...
MELGAR
..we had a guy come from the 'iron works... Wondered if you knew him...
Soon we may need to go back to our old jobs. America will only have paper airplanes to keep us safe.
Seems that there are not as many young aero engineers these days... A different world... The model trains (and track) are not the same either... But they're still pretty nice...
MELGAR
One of the things with Super O (not to take away from the great discussion about planes and WWII, my dad was a WWII vet, tank destroyer crew in Europe after D day) I wonder about is why would someone want to recreate it? Not saying Super O wasn't great looking track, but rather than given the cost of creating it, why would someone tool for super O? If I thought it was worthwhile, had the money and gumption to get into the business, I would only use Super O as a starting point, and from there look at what was good about it, what didn't work (I have heard the middle thin blade rail didn't wear out rollers, from people who ran it any length of time). Atlas and Scale trax are also realistic appearing track, but they could learn things, so to speak, from Super O. Seems to me the better way would be to create a track that synthesized the best of those types, while minimizing the cons.
The real reason it hasn't happened is that as much as I love the look of Super O, if you want realism Atlas and Scale Trax are pretty close (with some downsides; but having ties spaced too far is not insurmountable, a thin profile center rail is not a hurdle,etc), and for many people Gargraves, though it fails some of the 'realism' checks (tinplate rail, large ties, etc) works perfectly good for them.....and some people are fine with fast track, taking away the downsides by weathering it, ballasting it, etc or run it just the way it is. So in other words, it isn't a conspiracy of Lionel, likely someone else could copy Super O and produce it without fear of anything (among other things, even if the patent hadn't expired, the fact that Lionel hasn't exactly done much to defend it, like issuing statements they controlled it, actually produced any, would likely mean any lawsuit for patent infringement would be thrown out, the way for example courts threw out xerox suing Apple for use of things like hypertext, windows, the mouse, etc). The reality is that the 3 rail O market is in a place where current offerings fill the needs of people, and few would likely jump to another new rail system, based on super O or not.
BIGKID,
I think you're right. Everything can be improved upon. If it were cost-effective, someone would do it. I do think Atlas O is very good. But I would like to see lower tie and rail height, and thinner center rail.
MELGAR
Bigkid... i think your analysis was shared by Lionel back when they considered doing super o again.
They decided to just go all in on fastrack. Thats fine. I just recall lionel having two levels of track. Inexpensive line and a more premium line of track.
I personally think if lionel did an alternative scale track line catered to hi railers, it would take off because of the name and the dales network of lionel, gives availability.
As you say i would want something similar but with wide radius track and switches. Its odd that i can get a $2600 big boy, but i have to run it on a different companies track to have realism we are accustomed to. Lionel offers the equisite high end trains, but not the high end track system to make the most of them.
I just think the fastrack is great starter set track. But its far from what a highrailer would want.
Example... i got my chief engineer here at ford hooked on lionel scale trains. I got him to order some wide fastrack just to get him started. He already has a vision big boy and alot of great trains. When he got to see the track, he was like woa! I dont like that, i want this, and showed me pics of highrail layouts with scale track. Lionel cant offer him that.
