Cruise commander in Polar Express

Thanks, I have one question.  Do you have the capability to still burn the PIC parts?  I might take a lash at this if I could program the part.

Yes, I do.  Now that I've refreshed my memory, I realized I changed parts mid stream.  I started with an old UV erasable 12C671 device and a serial programmer then moved to this newer 12F flash device when I got the USB programmer.

All three chips I had are installed in things.  If you want to send me some, I can program them.  If you have different 8-pin DIP PICs, I can probably do those too.  As long as Microengineering Labs claims the latest PicBasic Pro version and their U2 programmer supports them, I can probably program them.

If I get a chance this weekend, I may tweak on the timing a little.

Jim,  Can you write a brief summary of what is going on in the circuit?  What output offset value you are getting out of the 317?  For crew talk, you are taking the TMCC Input a Command Railsounds board would get and converting it to send a offset for conventional trainsounds to talk?  G

George, that appears to be what he's doing.  He's adding a DC offset for either the bell or the whistle/horn with the circuit on the lower right hand side.  Then he has the separate digital outputs for the crewtalk & light, I presume those are simply 5V logic signals based on chip he's using.

The program just looks for those specific command bytes coming in from the TMCC serial data stream and outputs the appropriate function.

Jim, I'm curious how you handle the whistle/horn.  It appears it just blows for one second than then turns off.  If you hold it down, does it keep cycling one second on, half a second off, one second on?

I think I'd be interested in getting a few programmed for this function, looks pretty neat. 

Seems to me the repeating of the TMCC Horn command would keep the Whistle on, as the offset could be maintained. 

I can capture the schematic in a day, and the code is something I have already.  Packaging the board is quite often larger when you look at SMT and manufacture-ability VS a perf board - so final dimensions require trying to dial in a layout.   Connectivity could be wires, instead of connectors to save real PCB estate.

I am not sure about ownership on this design, I would not be able to offer them via ElectricRR using this exact design without an agreement.  And the TAS design was patented, which would certainly cover any offset generating design on a commercial basis.  The patent may still be in force by the original owners (TAS was a marketing company only with some products they offered).

With some research, and clear rights to the design, I would be glad to have some made up for folks at a realistic retail price.

Jon, if you're able to follow thru on this and make it available, I would most emphatically and definitely want one. So, if at some future time this bercomes a reality, count me in and email me when available for sale. Thanks

Kenn ogaugeguy

John,  I understand the basics of his circuit, but I was curious in having more details of the PIC output, and the specific value of the offset.

The other thing is that the Train Sound tender and the announcement coach, use Whistle or Bell offsets to activate crew talk.

For the tender when not in motion, the whistle button activate dialogue.  In motion no sounds.  So standard bell and whistle from CAB-1 controls it.

For the Announcement car, it uses a bell button to activate the talk.  Yet he has separated this and uses the Crew talk to activate the announcements.  Which is smart since that prevents the tender from activating the bell at the same time if he used the bell signal.  G

Jon,  what is the TAS Patent on this?  TAS patent generation of Offsets?  Doesn't every train manufacture have some sort of electronics that uses offsets to activate sounds?  G

If these were reasonably priced, I'd be in line for a couple of them.  If the user were able to load his own code, so much the better.

I agree with Jon that sometimes you can actually make a smaller package using perfboard and discrete wiring, you can pack stuff on pretty tight.

Looks like the patent may have lapsed due to non payment of maintainance fees. 

In any case Jon, since it's Mike Reagan that held the patent, you should be able to work something out.

You do know how big Mike is, yes?  

I'll set it up on my bench later today and measure the voltages I'm getting to be certain. I seem to remember tweaking on those resistor values on the LM317.  What I can't remember is if the values shown on the schematic are pre or post tweaking. I'll post an updated schematic if they are different.  I can write something up but that may be a couple days.

The timing of the whistle/horn is something I need to play with some.  It works, but I think it could work better. It's one of those things I've had on the to do list but it just hadn't made it to the top yet.

I've built most of the home brew electronics for my trains on perf board. I agree you can make them pretty small. I assumed I could make a PCB smaller due to the considerably smaller parts but I haven't actually tried.    The one PCB I did for the trains was for LED lighting effects but it mounts under the table, not in the train so I didn't worry about size. I did that on a PCB because the RGB driver chip was only available as a heat sinked QFN package that didn't lend itself to perfboard.   I do a lot of PCB design at work but those are usually are some combination of very high speed digital, Microwave RF or high current - none of which results in small boards. 

If someone builds some boards, I may be interested in getting a couple too (blank or assembled).

I second the idea of allowing the user to load their own code.  It also would be really interesting if that could be done without wiping out the existing code. I'm not even sure if that's possible with the Microchip parts. 

Funny, I just looked closer at a clearer copy of that patent.  After building the circuit, I found and referred to this patent for the flow chart on decoding the data. I hadn't even noticed it used the LM317 the same way. Obviously, the hobbyist who's website I got that from was looking at the same patent. Every product I've seen seemed to use diodes or triacs for this. Did Mike actually market anything with this design in it? I was just getting into TMCC about the time TAS went away so I never actually saw any of his pre-Lionel products.

I read the patent too, and it looked like it was for the UCUB.  The one glaring error in the patent, is the statement that TMCC cannot be back fitted into existing trains.  Hence the need for the device/patent.

I find that interesting in that once you remove the existing electronics it would be easy to install the LCRU (first generation) into a loco.  And now there are a multitude of methods to upgrade engines, either via ERR or using various Lionel parts.

I understand that having the ability to control a PS-1 engine is the unique example.  PS-1 was rich in conventional features so keeping the electronic in play while adding TMCC control was a benefit.  But when you look at all the other manufactures they were basic reverse units with air whistles or basic electronic whistles horns that you would want to replace anyway.

So here we are trying to integrate TMCC into Lionel's own Conventional Sounds.  Yet there are specific Signal Sounds and RailSounds units that are upgradeable.

If I was more knowledgeable I would patent an emulator for the new Lion Chief set ups.  Just like when Legacy first came out a PM bridge was required to control the older TMCC PM.  Why not a bridge that allows TMCC or Legacy handhelds to communicate with LC units.  Some combination of ENG and AUX2 that then lets the bridge know the next number will be a specific freq for controlling a LC engine.  Then the cab 1/2 buttons can operate the engine and do away with specific remotes for specific engines.

5 years from now there will probably be 30-50 different sets with LC, is someone really going to manage all those remotes?

Same with all these conventional Trainsounds boards.  Why not just use the Railsounds boards and code, so a person can upgrade an automatically get the sounds to work with Serial data.  The boards cost the same, the code is already written, it would reduce parts inventories and get to a consistent model.  All these other emulators would be history.

I am pretty sure all the older Signal Sounds could accept conventional or Serial data to play sounds.  Just needed to move a mother board jumper when you upgraded the engine.  The 28000 Series steamers from the late 90/early 00 are perfect examples.  G

Well, yes!  I was expecting you'd do it amicably!  I don't think physical force would be the best bet here.

I'd be happy with some blank boards, I can assemble them easily.  When I wire stuff up with discrete wire, it takes a lot longer to build something up, having blank boards would make the assembly a 15 minute exercise.

Here are some screen shots from a scope.  This is with a postwar ZW transformer set to 16Vrms.  The scope is isolated and connected across the factory power leads of the TrainSounds board in the tender (probe tip on the red wire, ground clip on the black wire).  The voltage to the sound board measures 12.3Vrms with no button pressed.  The other two plots show the reaction to pressing the bell & whistle buttons.

The resistors shown on my schematic are what I have in the board (though the 600 ohm parts are actually 620 ohms).

The resistor values on the LM317's seem to be different from those on the patent (though they are hard to read).  I remember at least one of the values on the original website I saw this on did not work.  I chose these by setting it up on a breadboard and playing with it.  These values result in the regulators clipping at @ about 15V or 5V depending on whether the optocouplers are driven. The Lionel folks probably know best what offset the TrainSounds boards are designed for. 

There is a slight trace of oscillation in one of regulators when the scope probe was connected. I could hear it in the speaker as well and it went away when the scope was disconnected.  Seeing that, a couple of small capacitors around the regulators may be in order. LM317's do typically want those.

JJ1138 & John,

I can have blanks fab'd easily & at low cost in China.  Not fast, but quality, this is a hobby - so time is not critical.  I am thinking to keep it basic, just a decode of horn/bell/Aux1+2 or Aux1+7.  Then the circuit is just the base system for a single sound card (no announcement coach hardware section).

I can supply code, either ASM or C; have to look for it.  The code I am thinking of was given to me by a friend who does not care if we use it, and not owned by Lionel; so no issue to distribute.  I will dig it up.

I don't want to duplicate effort, so if we have a few folks who want to work on this let's setup an email off line to establish the goals and timelines.

John, I still believe pin 3 has a 5VDC output,  Once this detection circuit is built and I assume will be in the engine, it could trigger the relay you mentioned earlier to drive the whistle steam fan motor with the 5VDC source.  Granted this may push the limit of the regulator unless it is a beefier version than the R2LC.  G 

Actually Jon Z. from Lionel specifically said that the Cruise Commander did not have the 5V signal, only the AC and DC Commander boards.

For the AC/DC command it comes on with the whistle.  They may have removed it, but I thought it was there just all the time.  All the lionel LCRUs, LCRX and R2LC have the 5VDC from the regulator present all the time. G

I made the comment about using it some time back, and Jon corrected me by pointing out that the whistle signal was not present in the Cruise Commander.

jj1138, can you send me an email at my profile email?  I'd like to discuss the possibility of generating some boards for this project.

I think your still missing my point.  The AC/DC commander produces a temporary 5VDC offset when the whistle is blown.  The other boards may have the 5VDC present all the time like the R2LC.  Easy check.  G

GGG, that could be true, but my point was that the signal when the horn is blown is useful for triggering a conventional horn.  Truthfully, since it takes me three components to generate 5V from track power, I don't really care about 5V continuous.  I know that any power available is probably very limited in capacity.

 I'd go ahead, anything we come up with can be retrofitted easily.

Sounds great to me.  I'm happy to work on it.  To contact me by email just turn my user name into a Gmail address.

You're saying the board will have one set of regulators to generate the offset for the tender from the Bell and Whistle buttons and just provide TTL signals for the Aux1+2 and Aux1+7 buttons, correct?  If so that's perfect for me - that's exactly how I built the prototype.

Would you have the 5V power supply on the board like I did?  In my case, I have the ERR Cruise Commander / R2LC installed the PE Engine and this board is in the tender with TrainsSounds board.  I just run the serial data & common across the tether (in fact I've thought about moving that to an infrared link).