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Hello everyone:

Looking for a bit of assistance. I have been in touch with Ken from ERR, but I know he is on vacation, so… I thought I’d run this one by any of you guys with Cruise M experience.

Original problem:     Century Club M10000 (Odyssey/RS4), magnate broke/cracked and engine ran at full speed or stop.

Solution:     Install Cruise Commander M in place of original Odyssey as per the advice provided here and by ERR.

Currently situation:     Cruise M installed, programed as engine 1, speed step 100 selected, motor type “large” selected. Engine responds to commands, lights, sounds all correct.  

However… engine still only runs at full speed or stop. 

Modifications: I did not install the cruise switch on the advise of Ken from ERR as I will never take this engine out of Cruise mode, also, I removed the 9V battery and connector, just to clean up the wiring.

Any help or trouble shooting tips would be greatly appreciated.

I can provide pictures if needed.

Thanks.

Charlie

Original Post

Replies sorted oldest to newest

Hello Charlie.  I also have that engine and feel it is an extremely great runner as is.  Fixing the magnet is not a bad job.  Did you replace the magnet?  Remember, when you look at a magnet ring, you will see small dots on one side.  Those dots need to face upward away from the motor.  If they face down, you will launch a rocket.

What is your antenna situation?

The motors are Mabuchi and not large.  I have always been a huge fan of the twin motor truck.

Last edited by Marty Fitzhenry

Thanks for the quick response Marty/Rod:

First the antenna seems to be working as all the commands work.

Second, I no longer have a magnet, I thought I would not need that with the Cruise Commander M, was I wrong? 

Third, Rod, it seems I missed the last page of the manual. So, no, I did not do the program, but I will do that now.

Thanks again guys.

Charlie

Charlie, see Alex's post above. Check to make sure you attached a wire from the ten pin connector on the Cruise M to pin 24 on the R2LC.

No magnet needed but make sure no pieces of the magnet remain on the flywheel. It won't affect your full speed issue but will throw the flywheel out of balance if its broken.

Pete

Last edited by Norton

Charlie,  A few things.  First as Alex stated you need to ensure you have serial data going into the Cruise M board.  It was going to the DCDS but depending on model it may be on a different connector.   Second, if the 10 pin connector had other wires in it for certain features you must ensure that any wire going to AC or chassis ground is removed.  DCDS Lionel boards use chassis ground as a reference, BUT ERR Cruise M DO NOT.  It will damage the board immediately.  (I suspect this may have happened).  Lastly it is possible to get a defective board.

Lets hope it is just no serial data, but how many wires are in the 10 pin and where do they go? G

The older Cruise M had a bug, where it would not boot up properly if track voltage is introduced/increased using a chopped wave transformer. As I understand it, and this may not be the best explanation, the cruise board boots up before the radio board boots up, so the cruise board thinks it is in conventional mode. I was hoping that this bug had been fixed. Is your board older stock? Has this bug NOT been fixed?

The Cruise M will boot up just fine with a conventional sine wave transformer, or it will boot up just fine with a TPC when you command AUX1-9 and give it full power immediately. Once the Cruise M boots up properly, it runs just fine on any transformer.

But if you advance the voltage level from zero up to operating voltage with a chopped wave power supply, the Cruise M boots up incorrectly.

This is only Cruise M, and none of the other products as far as I know.

Can you try this?

Last edited by RoyBoy

Hello again guys (Marty, Ron, Alex, Mike, Pete and George) I think that is everyone:

Sorry for the delay in getting back to you but I wanted to show some images to better understand what I have done.

Pictured below: The original J4 before just after I clipped the wire from Pin 1 (still connected) to pin 10. Pin one now goes to Pin 24 of the R2LC. The red and black wires in 5 and 6 go to lighting.

J4 Original

Another view of the J4 installed. Note, no Cruise on/off switch or Motor Sensor installed as per ERR, in ICSP.

J4 Piin 1

Three wire motor sensor heat shrunk to isolate. I will remove to clean up wiring once it is determined that I do not 

need the three wires.

Motor Sensor

Slightly off topic and I don't think has any effect on the current situation, but where do the brass spacers

go? There are only two of them and according to the parts break out from Lionel they should 

go somewhere around/on/under the switch plate.

Lionel M10000 Parts breakdown

Spacer 2Spacer

Roy, Greg Marty, I will look into the things you mentioned.

Again, thanks for everyones help.

Charlie

Attachments

Images (5)
  • J4 Original
  • J4 Piin 1
  • Motor Sensor
  • Spacer 2
  • Spacer

Marty, Alex:

Marty: you may be onto something. Pin 24 and 23 DO show continuity. I will assume that is not correct. Any ideas what might be wrong?

Pin 24a

pin 24b

Alex:      I assume you are asking about the second black wire on the J4 connector? If so, I'm not really sure where it goes, meaning, I see it ending into a connection, but I am not sure what the board it is connected into. I have called out this wire on the top photo. It is also shown in the top right corner of the bottom photo. This is original wiring, meaning, I did not touch this wire, as it is the way it came from the factory.

Thanks for taking the time to help trouble shoot.

Charlie

Attachments

Images (2)
  • pin 24b
  • Pin 24a

Charlie the black wire on Pin 2 of the ten pin connector is a serial out line when connected to the Cruise M.  Normally it doesn't go anywhere but could be used to as a data line to a Railsounds board if one didn't exist before. If it connected to ground it will damage the Cruise M.

As for the short between pin 23 and 24 on the R2LC , first remove the board from the connector and see if you still have a short. If so check the motherboard. If not then there is a problem with the R2LC.

 

Pete

Last edited by Norton

All great ideas guys, I will work on this now.

GRJ, Pin 2 from the 10 pin "J4" connector is what I thought Alex was asking about and I think you are asking about the same thing. If that is the case, then Photo 1, above, shows where the wire terminates. I don't know what this connector (or board) is use for. I will try to show a better picture.

Pete, I'm on it. Will try your ideas shortly.

Thanks everyone.

Charlie

Ok, First of all the pins you have marked are not correct.  The square pin on the R2LC and mother board are pin 1.  THAT Row of 12 across are ODD numbers.  The pin in the adjacent row to Pin one is pin 2 an its row is EVEN.  So the pins you show are either 22 and 24 or 21 and 23, but not 23 and 24.

You did not need to cut the wire on Pin 10 of the connector.  That should have already been serial data going to the DCDS.  The wire in Pin 9 is Duty out and goes to the Input pin of the RailSounds board.  This allows changes to the DCDS via TMCC to give an audible toot on the horn. Will do the same for the Cruise M

Now the 2 wires red and black going to a light, need to be LEDS not bulbs and the ground can not be referenced to chassis.   The Pin 1 clipped is necessary as that is another chassis ground.

I would remove all wires from 10 pin except pin 10, reconnect to its original wire you clipped.  Check continuity to pin 24 of R2LC.  If good, test engine.  G

Is that mother board a 11D or E?  That 3 pin you show is a Serial Data  Connection and a Duty Cycle input to RS.  On a 11D the middle is pin 9 and the slot shown with wire is serial data.  If a different # MB, all bets off.  But do what I stated above.  You may not have serial data connected right.  G

GGG posted:
You did not need to cut the wire on Pin 10 of the connector.  That should have already been serial data going to the DCDS.  The wire in Pin 9 is Duty out and goes to the Input pin of the RailSounds board.  This allows changes to the DCDS via TMCC to give an audible toot on the horn. Will do the same for the Cruise M

Either I'm confused as to what you're saying or you're mistaken here.  Pin 10 certainly doesn't go to serial data.  Also, the CC-M DC ground is not referenced to frame ground, so connecting that to serial data would likely have unpleasant results. 

FWIW, I've tried connecting pin 2 to the RailSounds serial data input, and the data is not recognized.

Attachments

Images (2)
  • blobid1
  • blobid2
Last edited by gunrunnerjohn

Hey guys, thanks for the feedback, but I am definitely confused now.

I did clip the wire on pin 10 (J4) after I sent the picture to Ken at ERR and that was his recommendation.

As for Pin 24 & 23 on the R2LC, I may have read the pin out incorrectly, I will need to go back and check, but I thought I was pretty careful and referenced everything off of the square being Pin 1 and 24 being in the opposite corner. I assumed pin 23 was next to pin 24, but maybe pin 23 is below. Do I understand that correctly?

Back side R2LC

 GGG (George) I did not see any marking on the board showing 11D or E, do you know where I might find this information?

Thanks for all your help guys.

Charlie

Attachments

Images (1)
  • Back side R2LC

You have pin-24 indicated correctly on your post, it's on the opposite row from pin-1 at the other end.  I don't know where pin-2 on J4 of the CC-M goes, I'd want to know that before I left it there.  Truthfully, I'd pull pin-2 out and just insulate the wire and see if that helps.  I never put anything in pin-2 of the CC-M, and I've never needed to.  I do use the marker and ditch lights on some conversions, it's a cheap way to get operating ditch lights for diesel upgrades.

I'm also curious as to what you have connected to pins 5,6 on the CC-M J4 connector.

Thanks for the confirmation GRJ.

As to the other question. Below is the image of where Pin 2 is going.

M10000 Wiring

Close up below of Pin 2 from J4 to unknown connector.

Pin 24a

Based on what George asked earlier, I tried testing the engine with and without Pin 2 connected and the response was the same. Full speed or stopped. With and without the lights and sound seemed to work, so I don't know what Pin 2 is connected to. I can SEE the connection, as pictured above, but I just don't know what the connections does.

Hope that makes sense.

Pins 5 & 6 from J4 go to lights, maybe markers or maybe interior, not sure but they do go to the lights in the cabin of the engine (front) or left in the pictures above.

I can shoot video, but I have never posted clips before, would video help to identify any of the problems?

Thanks GRJ.

Charlie

Attachments

Images (2)
  • M10000 Wiring
  • Pin 24a
Last edited by Charlie
gunrunnerjohn posted:
GGG posted:
You did not need to cut the wire on Pin 10 of the connector.  That should have already been serial data going to the DCDS.  The wire in Pin 9 is Duty out and goes to the Input pin of the RailSounds board.  This allows changes to the DCDS via TMCC to give an audible toot on the horn. Will do the same for the Cruise M

Either I'm confused as to what you're saying or you're mistaken here.  Pin 10 certainly doesn't go to serial data.  Also, the CC-M DC ground is not referenced to frame ground, so connecting that to serial data would likely have unpleasant results. 

FWIW, I've tried connecting pin 2 to the RailSounds serial data input, and the data is not recognized.

John, Yes I reversed order of pins on CCM, but was going by his picture which had both pin 1 and pin 10 wires cut.   Too many inputs at this point, and also repeating questions Charlie gave answers to already.

I explained what pin 2 does.  Charlie shows where it goes. We also explained mother board numbering.

If with only pin one of Cruise M on Pin 24 of R2LC and with Pin 23 of R2LC (antenna) open to chassis ground, and all other wires out of CCM other than 4 pin Molex.  IF you have no speed control and just full throttle, the board is damaged already.   You can test it with the Railsounds boards removed as a further test that the Serial data is not degraded, but in a diesel application with new CCM that should not matter at all.  G

Charlie posted:

Hey guys, thanks for the feedback, but I am definitely confused now.

I did clip the wire on pin 10 (J4) after I sent the picture to Ken at ERR and that was his recommendation.

As for Pin 24 & 23 on the R2LC, I may have read the pin out incorrectly, I will need to go back and check, but I thought I was pretty careful and referenced everything off of the square being Pin 1 and 24 being in the opposite corner. I assumed pin 23 was next to pin 24, but maybe pin 23 is below. Do I understand that correctly?

Back side R2LC

 GGG (George) I did not see any marking on the board showing 11D or E, do you know where I might find this information?

Thanks for all your help guys.

Charlie

On top of board probably under the audio board, last 3 of the Lionel part number.  G

Hello and good morning George, GNJ, Marty and all:

Just a follow up from late night testing.

Marty, I was wrong on the pin 23 & 24 continuity test. If I have pin 24 correctly identified then pin 23 should be under/beneath Pin 24 NOT to the side.

In the continuity test Pin 23 & 24 DO NOT show continuity.

Guys, I really do appreciate the feedback and effort you all have provided. Clearly the install has some issues and at this point I really need to think about sending this out to someone who better understands the ERR system.

To that point, and we can communicate off line if you wish, do any of you guys have capacity to take on this project? I also know that trying to fix someone else’s work makes it even more difficult.

So, if anybody is interested please contact me ctucek1@earthlink.net to discuss the details, fees etc.

Thanks again for everyone’s help.

Charlie

 

Thanks Alex, our posts crossed as I did not see your message and did not want to exclude you.

One question about the CCM board. When the board does go bad from being cooked, does it make a smell or smoke or some other visual indication that the wiring was incorrect?

In my case, I have not seen or smelled any typical electrical damage.

Thanks.

Charlie

Charlie, One place that might have taken you off track was using the 10 pin connector used on the DCDS board instead of the one provided in your kit. You would have had to deliberately hook up the wire at pin 2 to damage the board. Most of us do not use that wire and in fact just cut if off or remove it from the connector to avoid damaging anything.

Pete

90% of my CC-M installs only have one wire to the 10-pin connector, pin-1.  I do use the marker and ditch lights outputs on occasion.

I'd contact ERR, they're usually pretty good about swapping out a board.  I'd test any new board with ONLY pin-1 connected to the R2LC pin-24 and get it working. 

As for where pin-2 of the 10-pin connector goes, did you try my ohmmeter test to determine where it's wired?

Charlie posted:

Thanks Alex, our posts crossed as I did not see your message and did not want to exclude you.

One question about the CCM board. When the board does go bad from being cooked, does it make a smell or smoke or some other visual indication that the wiring was incorrect?

In my case, I have not seen or smelled any typical electrical damage.

Thanks.

Charlie

I've cooked one or two in the past, and never smelt anything, I would contact Ken he's very very nice to deal with. when you get your new cruise M listen to what Pete and GRJ said right above my post. Use the connector it comes with

Alex

Hey Pete, GRJ:

Pete:      I'm pretty sure I did not receive an additional 10 pin connector in the kit I received. I'm at work but I got the CCM board, two wire ties, some additional fasteners and heat shrink tubing. The only connector I received was the J4 (4 pin Molex connector).

GRJ:     I understand your question and can see where the wire goes; I just don’t know what the wire is connected to. It’s in the pictures I posted, just not sure what the connector is connecting? Hope that makes sense.

Maybe I can remove the board and send it to ERR for testing if they will do that. I will contact them later.

Alex:    Thanks again, that makes two people that mention an additional connector, I am certain now that I did not receive any additional connector except the J4. I guess I will try to ask for one of those when they test the board.

Thanks

Charlie

 

Last edited by Charlie

Charlie I sent an e-mail I can do this for you.   Pete, Wire 2 would not damage the board.  It is Duty cycle out and is the same on DCDS or CCM.  The only significant difference is that Lionel is Chassis ground on all other Grounds and CCM is not.  I just finished working 3 TMCC engines for other reasons and tracing those wires and location on these 11series MB.  In fact the 3 engines do not even have Serial data going into the DCDS, just pin 2 out.  IF you trace that connector, you will fine it is an input to the RS Board.  G

John, I am not saying it will work the CCM.  I am saying it will not hurt the CCM.  If you read some of the details above I recently worked 3 TMCC/RS4/ODY diesel engines that had various problems.  What I found interesting is that the DCDS did not have serial data going to them.  Just one wire in the 10 pin connector going to Pin 2 which is an output.  It feed the RS Audio board chuff input. 

These versions of DCDS which seem to be common, operate on AC Power, PWM, and Tach only.  They provide a feed to RS.  What I learned is that serial data is only needed if Features are run off the DCDS and need to be controlled.  Like ditch lights.

So coming back full circle to this CCM install.   The original Pin1 and Pin 2 wires could have remained in the 10 pin connector.  Pin 10 (a ground wire) MUST be removed.   The other 2 pins that run a feature needed to be checked to ensure they were LED or Markers.  If they were bulbs they need to be removed, or if they had an auxiliary ground, they would need to be removed.   G

George, that is interesting information.  I never really gave the serial data a thought, I figured they needed it for the DCDS.  Obviously, they need it for the ditch lights, but it makes sense that it wouldn't be needed for simple speed control.  The CC-M obviously needs it as it also accepts operating mode commands.

Are you saying the pin-2 serial data from the DCDS was running to a chuff input and not serial data?  I wonder if the DCDS pin-2 has different format data output than the CC-M pin-2 serial data output.

Questions...questions...questions...

Correct.  Hence why it can not be used to drive a RS board.  Next time you get a Diesel with 11 Mother Board trace it.  That three pin connector Charlie shows is Serial data, Chuff input and Ground.  In this case only the Chuff position is used.  It may be used to provide diesel ramp up or it confirms it like some other applications.  Only your hair dress knows, errr I mean old Lionel engineers.  G

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