ERR functionality

The ERR boards have no momentum setting.  You can change the the speed steps from 32 to 100, but that's it.  The 100 setting gives much finer control at the low-end of the throttle, so it's a bit like momentum in that it takes more throttle to get the engine moving.

Actually, the momentum will work in the TMCC setting with 32 speed steps, they're using the same RxLC control board as stock TMCC locomotives.

Truthfully, I never run that way as I really like the finer control of 100 speed steps.

Thank you rpslt8 and gunrunner.  Thank you for the answers.

After trying both speed steps, I really don't see much of a difference in the amount of turn of the jog wheel.  I'll have to mess around with it more.

Thanks again.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

Actually, the momentum will work in the TMCC setting with 32 speed steps, they're using the same RxLC control board as stock TMCC locomotives.

Truthfully, I never run that way as I really like the finer control of 100 speed steps.

According to the manual for the CC-M that is not the case...

The Cruise Commander MTM product line is unique in that the R2LC firmware revisions may vary, as the R2LC is not included in the kit. As a result, to be compatible with the R2LC-C08 to R2LC-C11 and R2LC-C13, the option selection sequence is slightly different as indicated below. As a bonus, when using R2LC-C11 & R2LC-C13, the momentum commands are repurposed to adjust the speed step selection: L = 32-speed steps, M = 100-speed steps, and H = 100-speed steps. Note: The speed step selection can change only when the throttle is set to zero.

Speed Step Selection
The default speed step selection is 100 as shipped. The 100-speed steps are linear. The 100- speed steps start at a lower threshold, thus the motor is operating at a lower initial voltage with fine adjustment as the throttle is advanced. The momentum and stall features are not applicable and do not operate. The speed step selection is stored until changed, and survives power cycling. To switch Speed Steps do the following:

Activate 32-Speed Steps: AUX1 + DIR + AUX1 + DIR + BRAKE
Activate 100-Speed Steps: AUX1 + DIR + AUX1 + DIR + BOOST

While the second part is not clear, my experience with Lionel R2LC08 boards is that the momentum doesn't function in TMCC mode either.  Maybe this only apples to the CC-M though.

The R4LC that ships with every Cruise Commander, AC Commander, or DC Commander is the R4LC-C08 and Momentum works with that version of software in TMCC mode.  You're quoting from the CC-M manual, not the manual for the standard full upgrade product.

The CC-M is a different animal, and I'd have to try it in 32 step mode to see if it works.  Truthfully, I don't use the momentum feature for TMCC as I like the 100 step mode better, however I do use momentum a lot with Legacy.

@TL posted:

After trying both speed steps, I really don't see much of a difference in the amount of turn of the jog wheel.  I'll have to mess around with it more.

That's because of the differences in how the command base processes the two modes, I'm speaking of the Legacy system now.

In TMCC control mode, the big red knob actually rotates a number of clicks before it advances to the next speed step.  However, in CAB1 or R100 control mode, the bit red knob advances the speed step for each increment.

Try low speed control using TMCC and then R100 mode with an ERR equipped locomotive configured for 100 step mode, you'll see a substantial difference in low speed control and finer granularity of speed control.

Thank you once again for your help.  I've tried and don't see a difference.  The jog wheel responds in the same way.   The speed step commands instructions above say:

Activate 32-Speed Steps: AUX1 + DIR + AUX1 + DIR + BRAKE
Activate 100-Speed Steps: AUX1 + DIR + AUX1 + DIR + BOOST

However, using my Cab 1-TMCC, the engine doesn't respond back at the end of the sequence with a horn acknowledgement.  I do not have a Legacy system.

It does respond back by inserting a zero where the DIR key is in the above command chain.

I'm going to try and hook up my DCS system to the TMCC system and see if the engine responds differently under DCS control.

Am I understanding correctly that in the 32 speed step mode the momentum L M H will work and in 100 speed step it will not?

Thank you.

The TMCC BASE1/CAB1 only operates in relative speed step mode, I don't think it supports momentum properly.  I did my testing with the Legacy system as the TMCC control operates in absolute speed step mode and does support momentum.

Here's a quick video of momentum in operation.  The BEEP is equipped with the ERR Cruise Commander Lite with the standard R4LC-C08 and I've set it to 32 step TMCC mode.  Using the CAB2 Legacy controller, I configured this engine as a TMCC controlled engine, select H for momentum, and quickly cranked the throttle to full throttle.  As you can see, it slowly picks up speed as the momentum processing works.

I'm actually fairly sure this will work with the CC-M as well, but I didn't have one handy to test with.

Gunrunner, you are most kind to help and show me an example.  I think the key is the Legacy control system.  It appears to have a finer adjustment than my TMCC Cab 1.

I did hook it up through my DCS system.  I set it to 128 speed steps (there were two options 32 and 128) and could certainly see a difference in the slow performance.

I'll monkey around with it.  I only have one Legacy engine that I've always run with the TMCC Cab 1.  It appears the Legacy system has that finer adjustment and more fun to mess around with.

Thank you once again.

I discovered Legacy and never looked back at the TMCC system.  I still have one old BASE1/CAB1 for my York demo track, but I'm Legacy now.   I also do run DCS.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

The TMCC BASE1/CAB1 only operates in relative speed step mode, I don't think it supports momentum properly.  I did my testing with the Legacy system as the TMCC control operates in absolute speed step mode and does support momentum.

Momentum definitely works with the TMCC Base/CAB-1 with TMCC locos that have Odyssey.  It works perfectly with my CC-II PRR Baldwin Sharks.  With Legacy locomotives when using a TMCC CAB-1, the L, M, and H buttons select 32, 100, and 200 speed step mode.

I'll double check my CC-M equipped locos in 32-step mode.  However, in my case I'm using Lionel R2LC-C08 boards NOT the special ERR R4LC-C08 boards.  But I'm going by what I ordered from Lionel.  If they secretly replaced them with R4LC versions then I don't think there is a way to discern the difference.

@TL posted:

Activate 32-Speed Steps: AUX1 + DIR + AUX1 + DIR + BRAKE
Activate 100-Speed Steps: AUX1 + DIR + AUX1 + DIR + BOOST

However, using my Cab 1-TMCC, the engine doesn't respond back at the end of the sequence with a horn acknowledgement.  I do not have a Legacy system.

It does respond back by inserting a zero where the DIR key is in the above command chain.

My bad.  I forgot the sequence replaced the 0s with DIRs in the CC-M.  AUX1 + 0 + AUX1 + 0 + BRAKE or BOOST is the correct sequence for regular Cruse Commanders that come with the radio board.

Thanks rpls8 for the additional information.  Much appreciated.  After watching Gunrunner's video, I think the answer to get finer control over TMCC and ERR engines is the Legacy control.  I have a Lionel E6 Atlantic circa 2011 Lindbergh special and curious what the Legacy control brings to the table.

Thanks Gents.

@rplst8 posted:

I'll double check my CC-M equipped locos in 32-step mode.  However, in my case I'm using Lionel R2LC-C08 boards NOT the special ERR R4LC-C08 boards.  But I'm going by what I ordered from Lionel.  If they secretly replaced them with R4LC versions then I don't think there is a way to discern the difference.

There is no difference in functionality between a Lionel R2LC-C08 board and the ERR supplied R4LC-C08 board.  They have EXACTLY the same software functionality and behave identically in operation.  I've used them interchangeably for years.

To put a nail in this I've made some videos.  I tested three engines, one with ERR (CC-M), one with TMCC/Odyssey, and one with Legacy/Odyssey II.  For the ERR I made three videos, one 32 step, momentum L, one 32 step momentum H, and one 100 step.  Contrast this with the TMCC/Odyssey loco where I did two videos one with momentum L and one with momentum H.  Last I threw in a Legacy loco for good measure in 32 step (hit L on CAB-1) and 200 step mode (hit H on CAB-1).  All of these were filmed while using an original TMCC Base and a CAB-1 remote.  As you can see in the video - the momentum seems to have little to no effect with the CC-M.  It's hard to tell for sure because my thumb may not be moving at the same speed.

However, with the TMCC/Odyssey loco, changing the momentum has an absolutely drastic effect.  Any change in momentum on the ERR board might simply be that selecting H put's it into 100 speed step mode.  It says that's reserved for the C11 and C13 revisions, but who knows - maybe Lionel updated the code in the C08 they are shipping now.  This might be the case if they are shipping R4LCs as R2LCs.

CC-M 32 step momentum L:

CC-M 32 step momentum H:

CC-M 100 step:

TMCC w/ Odyssey momentum L:

TMCC w/ Odyssey momentum H:

Legacy 32 step:

Legacy 200 step