"Feel" of a remote

Your first paragraph pretty well summed-up things as I see them.

I prefer a clockwise-counter clockwise turning knob over a thumbwheel (although I must admit I haven't really had a problem using either).

I do prefer the smaller size of the DCS Remote to the larger and more bulky (in my view) Legacy Remote, which is one of the reasons I tend to use the DCS Remote to control both my MTH and Lionel TMCC/Legacy locomotives.  I can control all function buttons, etc. easily with one hand using the DCS Remote;  I find I often need both hands to both hold and make use of certain functions on the Legacy Remote.

I'm waiting for the new Cab-1L Remote to appear because it will be the size of the earlier TMCC Remote.

As you have noticed, the Legacy remote has the ergonomic design of a brick. Excellent for building walls or throwing through windows; not so great for an electronic control. I also don't like the membrane buttons - I much prefer the feel of a normal, moving button. As to the thumbwheel vs. red knob controversy, I'm agnostic. I have both and don't have a strong preference one way or the other. One thing I don't like about the thumbwheel is that if you spin it fast, the speed won't go up 1 smph on each click as it does if you move it slowly. In general, I like either the MTH remote or the TMCC CAB-1 much better than the Legacy. That's the main reason I still don't own a Legacy set, although I do have three Legacy locomotives.

That said, in your position I'd probably put up with the lousy ergonomics and get Legacy. It works well, and since you have mostly Lionel engines, that's a major consideration. My fleet is mostly MTH, so the DCS remote serves me better, but with  almost all Lionel engines, I'd get the Legacy. Note that if all you have is TMCC engines and you don't need Legacy advanced features, Lionel has announced a "lite" version of Legacy with a remote that duplicates the look and feel of the old CAB-1. You might want to look into that. 

Thanks for the thorough answers. That's what makes this forum so great! 

Alan, if you don't mind, is your layout wired star or buss?

Neither...just a couple of wires to the track.  Of course, mine is a rather small layout that occupies the better part of a 12x11 room.  No need for anything fancy in terms of wiring, which is why I became a convert to command control.  I have had no problems operating my MTH PS2/PS3 or Lionel or Weaver TMCC/Legacy trains, although admittedly most of my locomotives are MTH because they have offered the most in the couple of road names I model.

I agree the Legacy remote is bulky. Over time I have become extremely comfortable with the Legacy remote.  The functions I use most often are easily addressed. The turn knob is great for ease of use and I play with it constantly for braking and throttle sounds. 

Lash ups, MU's, are much easier and edited easier on the Legacy compared to the DCS remote. Also the momentum buttons really help with prototypical operation.

I use both DCS and Legacy remotes on a daily basis and prefer the Legacy. That said I would still not to be without my DCS remote. As always comes down to what you plan to run and how you like to run them. 

I've got the older TMCC CAB-1, the new CAB-1L, and DCS.

Both CAB-1 handhelds are the same size, I got use to the big red knob but never cared for it due to the ability to spin it (no stops).  In the final analysis I guess it's just as good as the thumbwheel.

The DCS handheld feels good in my hand, but it needs some sort of rubberized grip on the sides to keep from squirting out of my hand.  I didn't think I would like the thumbwheel, but got use to it.  It's too easy to depress when you don't want to.  I also tend to bump it past a detent or two more than I usually want, but easy to back down or bump up a notch.

I've also got an old Aristo-Craft handheld that was designed for HO, I've been running an O-scale 4-6-0 with it the past couple of weeks via DC from an old transformer.  This handheld has switches/buttons you depress to speed the engine up or slow it down.  I find it hard to get precise control of the train, but it may just be the fact there's no "feel" for how many times to depress the switch/button.

Of the 3 types I like the DCS thumbwheel the best because I use DCS as my Command Control system, but it could be improved upon by making it more sturdy and make depressing it more rigid.

I haven't used a handle like is on the old Lionel transformers in years, but I would like to see a handheld with a handle on the side that moved up and down to control speed.  That to me would give the feeling of "pedal to the metal" more than the other methods, but it sure would look funny.

My comparison is between the remotes for TMCC and DCS because I do not have Legacy.  I much prefer the DCS remote because my experience with the big red button is I could spin it and wonder when the engine is going to decide to move.  The DCS thumb wheel on the other hand (the newer one with the larger serrations) is very comfortable to use and the engine always begins to respond with each notch of movement.

.....

Dennis

I run only conventional, but I have used all the remote systems on friends' layouts. I'd recommend wiring your layout both star and bus -- can't have too good of conductivity and ground plane.  But I don't think it really matters, clockwise or counter-clockwise, how its controlled, etc.: if you stick with one system you will quickly adapt and it will become intuitive, but if you have two or more systems that you use both, you will have to learn to alternate back and forth which is not as easy to do. I avoid the whole issue by just sticking the conventional.

I have small hands and I do not have any problems holding the legacy hand unit.  when I run at the club it is for 5 hours and I only put it down for a short time, my hands have never bothered me.

Bucky

I am partial to the DCS remote.  I very familiar with it through many hours of use and can switch with it very quickly and easily.  When switching I almost never scroll down with the thumb wheel to stop.  I just hit the direction button  some inches out from my objective and let the momentum feature bring the locomotive to a gentle stop.

I like the lighter weight of the DCS remote and find it easy to use one handed.

The Cab 2 remote is heavier and harder to operate one handed.  However, with a little practice, I came to operate it one handed without too much trouble. 

In the very near future we may find all these discussions about remotes much less important.  If you don't like one companies proprietary hardware that is OK. When the user interface becomes software on a universal hardware device it gets much easier to accommodate personal preferences. 

Operating DCS, TMCC and Legacy in TMCC mode is available today with a PC, WiFi and a the browser on your phone or tablet.  MTH has an App in the works.  

I have no intention of operating my trains from a phone.  I have to be on that darn thing enough.

As for a remote, I'll take the Cab2.  I hate that scroll wheel on the DCS Remote.

I have both, and use both DCS and Legacy. If I had to choose one it would be the Legacy. Don't care for the thumbwheel, and it's too darn  easy to press while scroling. Also prefer the larger display, my eyes arn't gett'n any younger.

I have no intention of operating my trains from a phone.  I have to be on that darn thing enough.

Some people will feel that way and I don't see dedicated DCS or Legacy remotes going away.

However, I can see many people finding an app as a good alternative to a dedicated device.  An app can pave the way for people new to the bobby to make the leap from a set with a very basic remote to a more full featured remote.  And it can be a great way for visitors at a club or large home layout to have remotes at an operating session.

I hate that scroll wheel on the DCS Remote.

We all have features we wish were different on the existing remotes.  It is very expensive and time consuming to change plastic injection molds, reconfigure internal printed circuit boards, etc to change a proprietary remote.  With a software approach it costs less in time and money to change the user interface or give the user choices.  

The software shown on the phone's browser pictured above gives the user two options on changing speed.  They can tap the screen at the desired point on the speedometer dial or they can use the slider below the dial.

People tend to like to chose what works best for them.  We are now getting more choice in how we control our trains.  That is a pretty cool thing.

Also prefer the larger display, my eyes arn't gett'n any younger.

Ray

Several people made that comment to me last fall when we were running the MTH display layout at York.  They loved the large display that a tablet provides.

Does that mean the scroll/thumb wheel will remain as is on the next generation DCS remote?

I have a slightly different take on the remote issue, namely for me it is nothing more than a tool, and like most early tools, they evolve. You may have noticed the improved Legacy remote ergonomics, but don’t overlook the useful features expertly designed into the Cab 2. Early in the Cab 2 design phase, Lionel questioned many users of the Cab 1 system and for the most part, the Cab 2 is a result of the feedback us users gave to them. No external antenna, backlight keypad, no overlay, detente red knob or velocity dial, all in all, a very evolved "tool" from the ergonomically lacking Cab 1 or DCS brick.

The multi-function membrane buttons - an interesting look into the future and much better than the clumsy feel of the limiting normal, moving button. As to the thumbwheel vs. red knob well, if MTH had invented the remote first it would have gone with the wheel. Unfornunally, they had to do something different and the thumbwell was the result. No biggie, but certainly not the ergonomics of the red dial.

I have all three remotes and the Legacy is buy far the best “tool” for running Lionel and 3rd engine, and the MTH remote for the MTH engines. 

In your position I'd probably get the best tool for your situation, which is clearly the Legacy remote. It works well, and since you have mostly Lionel engines, that's a major consideration. My fleet is mostly MTH, so the DCS remote, though limiting, serves me. I can only hope MTH is working on something that is much closer to the Legacy remote when done. Maybe the phone app is the future, but I’d like a dedicated remote.

Charlie

I have all 3 and my preference is for the Legacy since to me the buttons have a very easy location and tactile feel along with the sliders, etc. that I do not find on the DCS unit. I like the screen icons on the Legacy better and I find it easier to switch between 2 locomotives easier on the Legacy. I really do not like the thumbwheel on the DCS but the DCS has station and passenger sequences that the Legacy/TMCC does not have.

My overall verdict is Legacy. It is not perfect but feels the best and most comfortable to me.

I was not aware that the new Lionel CAB-1L was out yet. How long have you had yours?

I believe Bob was sent one to Beta-test.  I guess they were afraid to send me one (although I sure could use one since my Legacy is DOA). 

I have both Legacy and DCS and I like both but the legacy remote is more of a 2 hander remote while the DCS remote feels better in your hand I think it's time for a new DCS remote with a bigger screen and "Loose the thumbwheel"

Ditto Chris' comments, but I can live with the thumb-wheel if it gets an non-slip coating. A bigger display on the DCS remote with better graphics is a must in my opinion. And while we are talking bigger, the DCS red panic stop button needs to be bigger and in a more prominent position.

I tried Lionel's big red wheel, and I find that it mandates two-handed operation of the the remote, so the thumb-wheel has the operating advantage. I also dislike the antenna sticking out of the TMCC controller.

One thing I would find very objectionable in a remote is touch screen technology because of its propensity for accidental groping of an unwanted icon.

MTH and Lionel should give some serious consideration to designing a remote that can be put into a charger stand when the remote is not in use just like those the wireless telephone systems employ.

Mitch,

Does that mean the scroll/thumb wheel will remain as is on the next generation DCS remote?

If I had to "guess", I'd bet that the next DCS Remote will be an app on a smartphone/tablet. Where we go from there ... ?

Which I like? I only have a CAB1 and DCS. No Legacy engines, so no Legacy system.

The Legacy remote looks very large. I prefer one hand operation.

The DCS remote would be better with a Set button beside the Thumbwheel VS the press the Thumbwheel to select.

The Sliders for whistle and Brake on the Legacy remote interest me but moving mechanical parts are more likely to wear and break.

As to the app replacing a new DCS Remote, I really hope not.

I have no desire to buy a tablet instead of a new engine.

I have a smart phone but find my fingers are too large for most apps buttons.

Give me a remote I can hold in hand with dedicated buttons for common features.

And I find the Panic Red Stop button to be fine as is, I have only used it a couple times in several years.

I'm with you on all three points, Russell!

I was not aware that the new Lionel CAB-1L was out yet. How long have you had yours?

Jon Z. selected me as one of the "Testors" of the system, to see how it works thru DCS.  I have the CAB1-L and Command Base-L, there's a topic on it somewhere on this sub-forum.

So far, it's been fine, but I'm rarely using the CAB-1 handheld as once I program my TMCC/Legacy engines I turn them over to DCS.

As one other poster has pointed out (I believe it was Chris "cbojanower,") hold a TMCC/Legacy & DCS remote and throttle up or down an engine without looking at the remote.  Easy, because you instinctively know where the throttle is and can actually feel it on those remotes. 

Try the same thing, also without looking, on a tablet or an Andriod/iPhone.  How do you know you put your fingers on the throttle input on a touchscreen?

That, is going to be the biggest disadvantage if both parties decide to make next generation controllers completely app-based running on touchscreen mobile devices.  There's no "tactile feel" with that technology.

The Lionel Legacy systems may still be out of stock, but if you have Legacy locomotives that is what you need. Hold them all in your hand if you can. Many like the Legacy controller but casual guests have said it isn't an ergonically designed piece, it doen't fit smoothly in their hands. The Cab-1 felt better to them, smoother edges they said and so did the MTH remote but they were not fond of the MTH thumbwheel at all.

Who is Mitch ?

As has been stated above, how do you know you have your fingers in the right place on a touch screen?  I don't want to watch a screen!  I want to hold the throttle and watch my train run.  Ipad/touchscreen control for throwing switches is one thing, I don't like the technology at all for controlling my trains.

This discussion should NOT be about the feel of a remote.

The discussion should be which system you PREFER.

If you prefer system #1 but prefer remote #2, you have a decision to make.

Obviously, the system is the more important issue.

Choose your system and then the remote.

Both remotes are easy to use in my opinion.

I do not think the Legacy remote is bulky.

If you think the Legacy remote is bulky, try the controls of a real train.

Then, you can say you derailed it because the control was bulky.

Um.....er....... or not.

This discussion should NOT be about the feel of a remote.

This thread most certainly should be about whatever the original poster wants it to be about.

If you don't like this thread, feel free to start your own.

You don't have to do much regularly with the touch screen on Legacy while running, the throttle, brake/boost, and bell/whistle controls are all discrete controls.  I think the Legacy keypad is a great touch, it gets personalized for stuff like cranes, passenger cars, the cattle car, etc.  That makes it much easier to run those accessories without trying to remember which key does what.

John I was not referring to the Cab2 when I posted this. 

If I had to "guess", I'd bet that the next DCS Remote will be an app on a smartphone/tablet. Where we go from there ... ?

Think you missed my drift.  I like my Cab2 just fine.

I see Charlie, you were referring to the iPhone app or the like.  It'll be a while before I consider tossing my remotes for that capability as well.

This another Hot Button topic without a consensus of opinion.

FWIW unless I'm mistaken the legacy handheld is actually slightly smaller than the TMCC/ newcab1 L remote.

Pictures of the Legacy System with the remote resting in the base give the illusion that it is larger.

The logical thing would be to go down to a LHS and see if you can try or at least hold Lionel and MTH remotes in your hand.

Our opinions cannot sway your personal feel, having said that it would be silly to purchase a DCS system to control an added cab1 base and have no intention of adding MTH locos.

Lastly, the Legacy System will operate your TMCC locos smoother than a TMCC base can.

Your right, my mistake Allen. I was trying to recall George Browns review in OGR run 228.

Here it is:  "Although the CAB2 appears to be signifigantly larger than the cab1 it isn't. Lengthwise the CAB2 is less than 1&1/2" longer, while across the handheld are of the case the two controllers are nearly identical in width and thicknees. They are both equally comfortable to hold."

Pretty amazing...

We all grew up with the king of all transformers, the huge Lionel ZW.

We all like our big rugged trains because HO is, well, only half a train.

We all like die cast steam engines that some approach 20 lbs.

And what do some people whine and complain about...the remote being too big.

Give me a break, if the (any) remote is too big, do yourself and the rest of us a favor and go play with your HO or N gauge trains and leave the big boy (and girl, because to the best of my knowledge, none of our female friends have complained about the size of the remote being too big) trains to the rest of us.

NO smiley face, so stop looking for it!

Charlie

I don't think it's a matter of "too big" at all.  It's just a matter of one (DCS) being a one-hand controller and the other (Legacy) pretty much requiring two hands.  I defy anyone with normal-size hands or even fairly large ones (like mine) to operate the Legacy red speed control knob reliably with the same hand that is holding the unit.  Ditto for several other keys/functions.

For many that is no big deal.  After all, most of us do have two hands.  But I, for one, appreciate being able to execute all of the functions/controls with the hand that's holding the remote.  I have both remotes--Legacy and DCS--sitting right here beside me, and there's no question in my mind that there is a bit of a "convenience difference" related to their respective physical sizes.

Again, if "feel" is the topic, I'm just expressing my opinion regarding the "feel" of the two.