Has anybody tethered two Convetional Williams Engines

I run two Williams GP units together on my WM coal drag.  What I did was to disconnect the center pick-up on the 2nd unit and run the wire to the center pick-up on the lead loco.  Now the e-units work in tandem w/o the possibility on one operating independent from the other because of dirty track etc.  No need to worry about the ground/common wire. Works for this conventional running guy.

I run many Willims engines . I have put 2 scale GG1s on the track and ran them together at shows for hours like 5 + hours and I don't do a thing two them.Do the same whit GPS and AB units.  JMO

Be sure to disconnect this linkage before upgrading to PS2.

I would think option 2  would also work with PS2 since I am not using the second E unit. 

You do not want to run 4 motors on a regular PS2 board.

It was an idea. The reality would be that there wouldn't be any need to have the B unit powered than.

If you really wanted them powered, you could inquire about acquiring a slave board from a tech.

I just put ps2 in a williams gg1. It has been pulling 20 plus cars at 6smph, for probably 20 hours, over the last few days. I think with 2, I could throw the Chrismas tree on a gondola. How about making 1 a dummy, for a while?

I thought the extra 2 pin on the Williams board was the slave connection. Have to check an old instruction.  But it sounds like folks have run them together and the e-units stay in sync.  That was the premise of even Lionel's start in fwd after a set reset period electronic reverse units and QSI DCRU.  If they got out of sync you stopped them, waited the time and they would start in the same direction.  G

The PS2 conversion A unit powered only. I got lucky and had purchased a FB2 that was powered. So before upgrading to PS2 I thought I woild try it to see if it improved low speed performance going up a grade.

G thanks for chimming in. The idea was to have the motors in sync.  

MTH doesn't recommend 4 motors on a PS-2 board.  Especially if you are using an extended harness to get power to another unit.  G

Wild Mary. I went with you suggestion about slaving the second E 6 amp board with just one wire. There was an improvement not only in running( a lot smother) but also in the ability to pull 14 Atlas cars at lower speeds. I ran the engines at load for 3 hours with no issues. G since I rewired using only one connector, the second 4 pin connector can be used as a slave with out using the open 2 pin. I still have plans to upgrade to PS2 and will depower the B unit. Although I am curious as to how MTH has done this with their FA2 as both A units are powered.

 

Doug

I did find the instructions on line for the Williams reverse and that does show a slave connection, but I have not seen any thing on it in use.  Does Williams have ABA powered units?  G

G

Can you send me the link? As far as I know Williams  never had ABA with two units powered. My be AMC Dave and others who run Williams would know. The FB1 box said dummy but it was powered. I suspect the previous owner had powered it. 

 

Doug

You can find it on Williams Web forum board.  No details other than identifying it as slave connection.  G

G

 

I found this interesting from Bachmann's answer below it sounds like you can either connect the to boards or run 4 motors of the same board.

 

Doug  

 

Trainkrzy,

It is a DC output that you can use for another dual motored unit if you want to have a tether connected to another unit.  I don't have the exact specs, but the entire board is rated for 6 amps.  We included this in the original design of the board when were considering making a dual locomotive set with 4 motors.  That project never materialized, but the socket stayed in the design.  We may have some of the connectors in our service department.  Tell them it is the same connector used for the sound board.

Regards,

3rail

Yes but you could always piggy back off the motor leads, so did they have a slave board with out the micro controller section that would just respond to the DC polarity or ?????  I bet they were going to do a slave like QSI, but never wound up doing it. G

G

 

 If 3rail who is from Bachman. said they designed the 6 Amp board with capability to slave. I am going to call their service department tomorrow and see if they have any parts.  The mod I did essentially dose that now..  The board receives its power from the 1st engines pick ups. 

 

Doug

Doug, glad it worked out for you.  The best/easiest solution isn't  always the most obvious.  KISS!

Mary your right KIS ( Keep it simple ). If you were following. It looks like the 6 Amp board was designed with slaving a second unit. I will know more tomorrow when I contact Williams parts people. Funny thing I did the same thing with an early Weaver FA2 that I had rebuilt. Since it had the chain drive with one motor in each unit. I put a Williams board in the A unit and ran a make shift tether from the FB2 unit into the second connector on the board. Pulled like a champ until the difs started blowing up.

 

Doug 

 

Without waiting for a Bachman tech chiming in Ask the Bachman forum http://www.bachmanntrains.com/...p/topic,29200.0.html , I performed the mod last night. Instead of running the tether from the 2 pin connector on the board. The wires from the motors in the B unit are combined to the 4 pin connector (Blue to blue and yellow to yellow) that the other two motors are wired into.  Previous mod was to sync the Two boards. pulling about 20lbs of rolling stock required 8.8 minimum drawing at the most 2.6 Amps with lowest 2.1 for 4 hours. New set up (Motors, no  Board in B unit) average draw Amp draw fluctuates from 1.9 to 2.5 also for 4 hours.  This is without cleaning my track and is most likely the cause of the fluctuation in Amps. The actual write up will be posted in the next couple of days. 

 

Note Previous mod Single unit starts at 5.5 and is crawling 2-5 Smph both units married 6.6 crawling, with 16 car 7.1 crawl but due to track not level I need 8.8. New mod: both units married 5.7 crawling, with 16 car 6.8 crawl but due to track not level I still need 8.8. I just seam to be drawing less Amps.

 

Doug

 

Doug

Doug, it is unclear what mod you performed?  First, if this was a large diesel with 4 motors I don't understand why Bach would use the 2 pin connector when they already have a dual output.  I would take one of the outputs to the fwd 2 motors (just use a jumper wire from the one motor to the next.  This keeps everything in parallel.  The second connection goes to the aft two motors.

 

That 2 pin is either a logic signal to drive a second board in sync with the first.  If it is just motor outputs not sure why you would need it.  Just use one connector to drive the B unit via tether.   G

GGG touched an excellent point with the either/or ID of the plug. A component driver might not like a motor there for long if a board belongs there. 

 Orig. posted by Doug.

 

"I just seems to be drawing less Amps."

 

That does mean greater efficiency!

Or you have limited what the draw capability is, which will result in heat within the "weak link" . 

The way It was explained the 2 pin was for the second unit  2 motors without the board. Since I did not get a good explanation from their tech. I went with using the second 4 Pin for the two motors in the B unit. I had already of wired the two motors, 3r pick ups and ground into the one 4 pin connector. Because it was 0100 and tired. I inadvertently wired all four motors into the same 4 pin. Adriatic: You have to remember that this is a conventional engine and board. There is not any ID.  

I ran the engines under load for 2 hrs last night/early this morning and again after I got everybody to school. Starting at 0930 until 1400 when I left to pick up my daughter from school.  It only stalled once and that was at my problem curve. Another thing I might due is to remove some weight from the engines. Like my Atlas and weavers they heavy. When I removed the lead weights from the weavers, It took less Amps and voltage to run the engines without sacrificing traction.

 

Doug

 

Yes

No mods to the board It was designed to handle up to 6 Amps.

Ok, I went and test a Williams board I have.  Turns out those 2 slave pins are tied to the motor leads at the relay.

 

No Load test and the output of the 2 pins is variable DC equivalent to the throttle setting.  Goes to about .9V at neutral and can change polarity.

 

So maybe Williams was worried about the traces, though they don't look any different than the 4 plug traces.   I would think you can wire it either way.  Use one 4 pin plug for the lead engine and send the other 4 pin to the slave.  That way you have AC input joined and effectively have 4 widely spaced pickups to get AC power to the Reverse unit.  4 engine on a 6 amp board would be close in my mind.  When QSI did that they changed the 6A diodes to heat sunk 8A rectifier diodes on the chassis. 

 

I really don't know why Bachman is set against a powered AB set.  G

G

 

I will clean all the connections tonight after everybody's in bed. move the B unit wires to the second 4 pin,  Then do the pics and wiring diagram..Thanks for the conformation of the 2 pin since Bachman wouldn't give me the answer. putting it in the other 4 pin spreads the load and since I am only burning 2.5 at the most it well with in the capability of the board. Now I am sure the Williams die hards are going to have a cow over this.

 

Doug 

My concern was amps. Even 2a if running though a "chip" could toast it. If the pin used was only relay controlled, then great!

 

   I don't know all that much about command in specific really. None of mine have ever had an issue, or given me reason to mod them!

 I have had to trouble shoot many unusual circuits in the vending/arcade business. Some without schematics. Watched some "evolve" from relays alone, to fully opto- isolated circuits. So I tend to do an "either or" simple logic breakdown on everything. "How could it be done" Though un-needed, these were my thoughts..

 

 Without command in mind, it could still be "switched" with a chip. Maybe one just strong enough to trigger a remote relay in the other unit, that would keep the power draw closer to each motor that way, as well as only putting a tiny draw on the lead system. It could still be modded to spread power pick up out, for sure.

You are using low amp motors. So in theory, if the chip was used to drive revolving motors, instead of a linear motor (mech. relay solenoid), it may work.

 Drawing less in amps? Maybe because amperage supplied to the extra motor might be limited by the amount of amperage the controlling chip is able to pass. Those types of circuits do tend to be built with overkill, but capacitors as boosters do also get used after a lighter chip for driving a linear motor semi-continuously. Simply feeling a control chip may have revealed an unhealthy heat increase.(watch you don't burn your fingers) More heat is a sign of possibly maxing out the chip, ie resistance from small "wire size"=heat. And Res. will limit amps. A larger chip made in that same series, and a simple swap could maybe happen. Allot comes down to if the numbers printed on a chip can be cross referenced.

If its micro electronics, I really just prefer to swear, and throw it on the floor right away! 

 

 

   

Don't grade all chips the same.  The early electronic reverse units used transistors or TRIACs rated for 3 up to 10Amps depending on the use.  Lower Lionel starter sets with the single small can motor use the lower 3Amp boards.

 

The heavier duty Triac and now FETs are heat sunk also.  Others did use relays like QSI and Williams.

 

Bottom line is the board is rated for 6amps, so the traces on the circuit board the components that drive the motor/load have to handle that.  Just interesting method they used for the boards.

 

Having said that, MTH also uses the motor drive output to drive a slave board in the MTH PS-2 world.  Even though it is a motor output it doesn't actually drive the motors.  Instead the output is used to tell a slave board what to do and that slave board actually drives the slave motors.

 

PS-1 the logic signals are sent over to the PS-1 slave and it mimics the lead unit, but the slave board actually powers the motor.

 

So I am not sure what Williams was thinking and whether they had a slave board in mind.

 

If I traced the Williams board I am sure I could tap of the logic drivers that turn the relays on and off, send those signals over to another Williams board that is modified to turn the logic off and use the lead unit logic.  Just like QSI and MTH PS-1 does.  

 

You pretty much negate having to do that if you tie the 2 engines AC input together as recommend by a few above.  That really limits the chance one e-unit gets out of sync with the other.   G

It would be OK to plug in on the slave pin of the reverse board.

 

 

 

This is old but still good info.

 

Bill

Bill

 

Thanks for the instructions for the 6 Amp board.

 

Doug 

That instruction is for adding a lock out switch.  I also believe Bachman has a posted document someone did on how to change it to start in neutral or reverse first.  G

I have done a few things with my Williams engines but have not run two engines or four motors off of one circuit board.

I have added an extra set of power wires(both positive and negative)between three Williams diesel engines; two being powered SD-45's and one being a Shark B unit with True Blast 2 horn installed. The reason for the extra wires was so that neither engine stalled and to supply the center rail power to the B unit.

 

Another thing that I have done with a Williams SD-45 was to replace the plastic non-flanged wheel set on the truck assembly with a metal non-flanged set of wheels. This helps keep power when the SD-45 has traction tires and you use a track activated accessory like the highway crossing lights with a 153C connector.

 

Lee Fritz

Yes its for adding a switch. In the upper R/H corner of the unit you can also see the connector for adding a slave unit.

 

Bill

 

 

This is another one

Bill, I think the 3 minute rule is in effect.  We have been discussing the use of the slave connection.  We know it is there and we know it is motor voltage not logic voltage.  The issue was why it was there.   Doug has gone to Bach to ask about it. You already have 2 4 pin connectors that have AC power input and motor output.  Why do you need a third motor output.  Redundant unless it was meant to be a logic input.

 

Bachmann never produced a powered AB, just an upgrade to add motors and a reverse unit to a dummy.

 

Lee's method is a good one and it would eliminate the possibility of two reverse units getting out of sync on a power interruption.  In my mind 6a is approaching a limit on trying to run a 4 motor unit.  Most e-units are 8 to 10 amps now a days.  G