You getting it? How much will it be?
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@SeptaTony
"You getting it?" Uh, that would be no.
"How much will it be?" $3,499.00 
Feels like déjà vu !
Lionel has ruined what the Vision Line was supposed to be...
What a disappointment. No, I will wait for something different.
Another Big Boy, whoa, what a surprise. I'm surprised they went back to the depleting coal load with all the mechanical issues it had.
Lots of anticipation but no catsup
(for those who remember that commercial). I have one of the first generation BigBoys and I love it but I wouldn't buy more of the same thing. Vern asked "how much will it be?". You have to assume that in today's economy the MSRP will be way north of the original and the second releases. May be it will be released in the Santa Fe war bonnet or NYC Lightning stripe colors.
@superwarp1 posted:Another Big Boy, whoa, what a surprise. I'm surprised they went back to the depleting coal load with all the mechanical issues it had.
Seems that after over 100 years, Lionel still never learns. 
If this was April, I'd be wondering if this was an April fools joke!
Really?!
@Yellowstone Special posted:Seems that after over 100 years, Lionel still never learns.
If I had come to that same conclusion I would not now be part of this forum.
There' is no way that Lionel would have made it through these 122 years if it had never learned anything. Repeating mistakes will kill a business very quickly, whether in the 1920's or the 2020's.
Since it hasn't yet died in all these years my interpretation is that there are only occasional mistakes. Having said that, this Big Boy may indeed be one of them.
Mike
Always with the negative waves......Just for the record, I never figured every single release is about what I'd like/buy 
.
Kinda disappointing it's a re-run. However it'll probably sell well, considering the high secondary market prices of the previous Vison Line and Legacy runs.
@Mellow Hudson Mike posted:If I had come to that same conclusion I would not now be part of this forum.
There' is no way that Lionel would have made it through these 122 years if it had never learned anything. Repeating mistakes will kill a business very quickly, whether in the 1920's or the 2020's.
Since it hasn't yet died in all these years my interpretation is that there are only occasional mistakes. Having said that, this Big Boy may indeed be one of them.
Mike
Well, then I'll rephrase that. After over 100 years in the business, Lionel has had some hits and misses.
I'm going to step out and say.... I'm thinking this is fake news.
When stuff like this happens, some observers may think it makes no sense. However, Lionel knows the marketplace better than any individual does, and if they chose to rerun and engine, it would only be because they have information that there's a demand for it. Obviously not from folks who already have it. But Lionel is not out to intentionally lose money. I'm sure they recognize that there will be some knashing of teeth by some when a re-run is done. But they've done it before. One example is the Legacy Southern Pacific Daylight. Another example was the Legacy Milwaukee Road S-3 steamers. Like the Daylights, Lionel ran that a second time several years after the first run. And the second run sold out, just like the first run.
Looks to me like Lionel should consider a new promo name for VisionLine. I say give "Tunnel VisionLine" a try.
"Tunnel VisionLine" I like that!
What run of the Big Boy will this be? 3rd? or perhaps 4th? Didn't MTH release one recently as well?
Makes little sense with so many options for them...
I think Lionel is producing the same engine over & over again simply because ppl buy them! Every big boy run has sold out and........... there are many of us that refuse to pay between $3,500.00 - $5,000.00 for the 1st vision line run. Although this run won’t be cheap, it won’t be$3,500.00, and there will be several different detail variations and time periods covered in this run. I also like the new features. Since I don’t have a single big boy. I’m in and I’ll enjoy it. Lionel gave us two newly tooled steamers last year. And a new brass hybrid in the last catalog. I think they are doing great.
The big boy is way to big for my layout and this new vision line big boy will be way to much money for me. I am not a fan of all the overhang. Even with 072 curves it still looks weird. How about Lionel doing a smaller vision line locomotive everything is huge and articulated.
My money is safe for now.
@MichRR714@MichRR714 posted:Lionel has ruined what the Vision Line was supposed to be...
It does not bother me when a company reruns something because, like Breezinup said, Lionel knows its market and these will probably sell well. What disappoints me is calling these reruns Vision Line. To me it is just a way of increasing the price for a Legacy rerun. Either retire the name or wait until a true Vision Line new design is produced to use the name again.
You would have thought Lionel would have at least done a second run of the CC2 or maybe do a Pennsy T1. They haven't been done way longer than the big boys. My son has the first run of the Visionline Big boy. Its a great engine but don't need another. I would have hoped for something new.
I am sure it will sell out, especially since it will be built to order, I just wont be adding it to my roster. Oh well, next time
That is great news for new people that doesn't have a Big Boy, but 1 Gen VL Big boy is a great machine. Personally, I'm not going to buy new Gen VL Big Boy just for 2 or 3 new features. Thanks to god, I found a brand new 4014 from a collector at MSRP $2699 two years ago, and until today I didn't have time to run it and add smoke oil, yet.
Talking about price, if new Legacy Challenger is $2,499 (almost same price from 1 Gen VL Big Boy and $600 more than VL Challenger), I think price for this new generation Big Boy will be around $3,499 - $3,699 because it will have more smoke/steam/lights features than previous generation, so with shipping and taxes we are talking about around $4,000.00 maybe. To much for me only for one loco.
I recommend you if you doesn't have one and want pay less, wait until August-October 2025 to buy a Lionel refurbished VL Big Boy for about $2,899. Just few weeks ago I purchased almost a brand new Clinchfield Challenger VL from them, almost a half price.
But anything product with good quality and design is welcome.
While I'm sure another Big Boy will be wonderful, not a chance at that price point. Not that I couldn't, but there are just so many other things that call my name.
I am surprised the Visionline line still exists at this point.
With the price of Legacy models now I cant believe there is a market for Visionline models at this point in the game.
Not trying to get into a price war. Just saying that I am surprised Lionel would concentrate on the Visionline market at this point with the economy situation and the fact that they can't even get their quality control and paint issues corrected on models more people purchase at a high price and are disappointed with.
Brad
@breezinup posted:When stuff like this happens, some observers may think it makes no sense. However, Lionel knows the marketplace better than any individual does, and if they chose to rerun and engine, it would only be because they have information that there's a demand for it. Obviously not from folks who already have it. But Lionel is not out to intentionally lose money, and I'm sure they recognize that there will be some knashing of teeth by some when a re-run is done. But they've done it before. One example is the Legacy Southern Pacific Daylight. Another example was the Legacy Milwaukee Road S-3 steamers. Like the Daylights, Lionel ran that a second time several years after the first run. And the second run sold out, just like the first run.
I think breezinup hit the nail.
As others have said ... Lionel will build what their management team feels will sell.
This loc will sell.
@rthomps posted:I think breezinup hit the nail.
As others have said ... Lionel will build what their management team feels will sell.
This loc will sell.
They will build what the "investment" team thinks will yield a profit.
You'd have to sell twice as many $1500 hudsons vs $3000 bigboys. There's probably little difference in the Chinese build cost.
Having said that. They need to add the Ed Dickens foamer deterrent blow down? pipe that shoots steam from the engineers side of the loco.
Everyone is feeling the pinch right now from inflation, gas prices, etc. I think Lionel is making the smart business decision to sell an engine that will have the broadest appeal possible. This engine won't actually hit shelves until next late next year, who knows what the economic landscape will look like then? Let's not discount (no pun intended! ) other possibilities like nucelar escalation in Ukraine, Chinese invasion of Taiwan, international food shortages, or anything else that might put a damper on Vision Line orders. (In accordance with forum rules I make no political assertions about any of the above, I merely acknowledge them as a possibility!)
I am not business man but perhaps this is less of a "profit/sales maximizing" decision and more of a "loss-minimizing" decision.
It’s not my cup of tea, but I hope they sell bunches and bunches of them. That would be good for the company and, importantly, for the dealers and that’s good for the hobby.
@MichRR714 posted:Feels like déjà vu !
Lionel has ruined what the Vision Line was supposed to be...
Agreed!
I take it Lionel is making the Big Boy join the ranks of the NYC Hudson and the PRR K4.... make them over and over again!
I guess I'm gonna have to Hunt down a PRR CCII
@0-Gauge CJ posted:I think Lionel is making the smart business decision to sell an engine that will have the broadest appeal possible.
I'm sorry, but on what planet is a VisionLine Big Boy, 3 years after the most recent run, the broadest appeal possible? It can't run on many layouts, it's going to cost a pretty penny, and a lot of people just bought one (Lionel ran them in 2019 V2), especially because MTH did a run around the same time.
Let's take a hypothetical where Lionel a) uses existing tooling, that b) can fit a bunch of the recent upgrades, and c) lots people recognize. What if Lionel had done a run of Berkshires and Kannawahs? They have the tooling, everyone knows 765 and 1225, and C&O 2716 has been making news as well. They can run Nickle Plate, Pere Marquette, C&O + Virginia (with the alternate smoke box front, low headlight), Polar Express and they can do a wide variety of paint schemes in each (I'd love to see 2716 in the scheme used to transport it to KSH's new site, with the CSX tender logo). I can even think up some interesting fantasy schemes in each that match that road's passenger car schemes.
While a Berk is not at the top of my wish list, there are certainly configurations I would heavily consider ordering, and I'm sure that's true of a lot of people. The risk exposure to Lionel is similar, if not better, and it has been far longer since they've done a run of them. I'm not saying it had to be Berks, I'm just using this as an example of something that makes a lot more sense than another run of Big Boys.
I really try to cut Lionel a lot of slack, and I usually criticize comments like mine, but this seems like a real let down after the hype for a new Vision Line loco.
PSM, good point on the Berks. They seem overdue in all their flavors, particularly the scale PolEx - I could sell mine (original release) for nearly twice what I paid for it if online sales are to be believed. That seems to point to demand for a rerun. Maybe they’re coming in Legacy (non-Vision) soon. An appearance in the January catalog would give them a decent shot of running under Christmas trees in 2023.
I'm in depending on the price. I don't have a Big Boy and I dig Visionline features a lot. I do need oodles of track and wood though so it's all price dependent. If it arrives in a year and I can save money for it every month, it might happen.
I hope it's massively successful regardless of my purchase. A boost in cash for Lionel is a good thing.
I'm befuddled by the decision to re-release the Big Boy because I think a lot of us would love to see something new or something else entirely, but Lionel knows their business better than I do.
With that being said, that doesn't mean I won't consider buying it. To be honest, I'd really love to have one, and this may be my best chance to procure one, but I'm not committed yet. I'll be looking forward to seeing pre-order pricing when shops are ready to start taking orders.
OK, so what would you all prefer to have besides the Big Boy?
I'd love to see a new run of the 700E. I also covet a GG1.
@prrhorseshoecurve posted:Agreed!
I take it Lionel is making the Big Boy join the ranks of the NYC Hudson and the PRR K4.... make them over and over again!
I guess I'm gonna have to Hunt down a PRR CCII
Hudson's? K4's they did run a bunch, do you mean Hudson's from postwar days? They haven't done many Hudson's in Legacy. Had the VL in two coats of paint if I'm not mistaken, and did the recent J3a in a few road numbers. They have only done J1's in TMCC and not that many that I recall. Is there any that I'm missing?
TrainWorld will be having Lionel on TrainWorld TV at 5PM EDT tonight Friday 10-21- 2022 and they will have a sample on display
@TrainWorld.com posted:TrainWorld will be having Lionel on TrainWorld TV at 5PM EDT tonight Friday 10-21- 2022 and they will have a sample on display
Even though I'm not ordering one, I like to hear what they say. Thanks Ken Jr for posting that.
@B rad posted:I am surprised the Visionline line still exists at this point.
With the price of Legacy models now I cant believe there is a market for Visionline models at this point in the game.
Not trying to get into a price war. Just saying that I am surprised Lionel would concentrate on the Visionline market at this point with the economy situation and the fact that they can't even get their quality control and paint issues corrected on models more people purchase at a high price and are disappointed with.
Brad
I hear ya but ...
- Those of us fortunate enough to be able to purchase from the Vision Line do not worry much about about cost. This market is quite price-insensitive. If we were talking about the Traditional Line then I'd agree wholeheartedly with you.
- Yes you are getting into a price war.
- Getting QC and paint issues under control may be facts to you, but to many including perhaps Lionel, they're more like an opinion. These 'facts' haven't affected sales appreciably. That's because most people don't care about these as much as you do.
You're not wrong here, you just see these issues from a different point of view -- an understandable one at that.
Finally, remember one thing about Lionel. Its products have always been expensive, and intended to be so, from day one 122 years ago all the way through to today.
These new prices are not out of line with that observation.
Mike
Since I have the first run Vision Line BB,actually two different numbers, and the 2017 MTH oil burner Big Boy, I have close to zero interest in this one. I can wait for something like the PRR T1 Duplex or maybe the C&O Yellowbelly.
@PSM posted:I'm sorry, but on what planet is a VisionLine Big Boy, 3 years after the most recent run, the broadest appeal possible? It can't run on many layouts, it's going to cost a pretty penny, and a lot of people just bought one (Lionel ran them in 2019 V2), especially because MTH did a run around the same time.
Let's take a hypothetical where Lionel a) uses existing tooling, that b) can fit a bunch of the recent upgrades, and c) lots people recognize. What if Lionel had done a run of Berkshires and Kannawahs? They have the tooling, everyone knows 765 and 1225, and C&O 2716 has been making news as well. They can run Nickle Plate, Pere Marquette, C&O + Virginia (with the alternate smoke box front, low headlight), Polar Express and they can do a wide variety of paint schemes in each (I'd love to see 2716 in the scheme used to transport it to KSH's new site, with the CSX tender logo). I can even think up some interesting fantasy schemes in each that match that road's passenger car schemes.
While a Berk is not at the top of my wish list, there are certainly configurations I would heavily consider ordering, and I'm sure that's true of a lot of people. The risk exposure to Lionel is similar, if not better, and it has been far longer since they've done a run of them. I'm not saying it had to be Berks, I'm just using this as an example of something that makes a lot more sense than another run of Big Boys.
I really try to cut Lionel a lot of slack, and I usually criticize comments like mine, but this seems like a real let down after the hype for a new Vision Line loco.
Broadest appeal, market saturation notwithstanding. The Big Boy is a very popular excursion engine and modelers seem fond of it in general. I have personally been grateful for reruns since I'm quite new to the hobby and I get another chance at getting excellent models no longer (or very rarely on the secondary market) available. I'm sure there are a couple of pandemic hobbyists who wouldn't mind, and there are probably a few who would mind picking up a second in a different road number or configuration (eg, oil vs coal tender). I personally would like to see a VL Allegheny or Y6b.
The more I think about this though the more I'm not sure my argument makes sense from an economic standpoint. My first thought was choose the Big Boy, try and ride out the excursion hype a little longer, and take advantage of the engine's broad popularity to try and get as large a pool of buyers as possible in an economic landscape that is dictating a smaller consumer market due to inflation. But VL is always expensive, right? The pool of buyers will always be pretty small. So then exactly how much more is the VL buyer pool going to shrink due to inflation? I'll guess not a lot... but if the pool is not shrinking much then you wouldn't need the Big Boy for broad appeal, any model that would draw interest from the VL customer pool would work... so that brings us back to the original question, why the Big Boy?
