K-Line K4 w/Cruise Commander Issue

I suspect it's not really losing the TMCC signal.  If the headlight is not flickering, you're probably not losing TMCC signal.

This sounds like the ERR CC-M is losing the serial data signal.  I designed my Improved R2LC-R4LC Serial Port Buffer specifically to fix serial data loading issues.  Many times, adding the CC-M is enough to load the serial data and cause it's amplitude to be insufficient to be recognized by the CC-M.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

I suspect it's not really losing the TMCC signal.  If the headlight is not flickering, you're probably not losing TMCC signal.

This sounds like the ERR CC-M is losing the serial data signal.  I designed my Improved R2LC-R4LC Serial Port Buffer specifically to fix serial data loading issues.  Many times, adding the CC-M is enough to load the serial data and cause it's amplitude to be insufficient to be recognized by the CC-M.

I thought the added buffer was for when IR is used in conjunction with a M or even the CC,…..so it can still lose data even with a hard wire tether like his K4 would have?…..cause correct me if I’m wrong,….but the Kline K4’s are built similar to the scale Hudsons,….6 wire hard wire tether,….no??..

Pat

Yes, just the added load of anything on the serial data can be enough to push you over the edge.  I simply add the buffer if I have a serial data issue.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

Yes, just the added load of anything on the serial data can be enough to push you over the edge.  I simply add the buffer if I have a serial data issue.

So it’s a case by case study to see if it goes full retard or not?…Ive fought IR draining the data stream, but never had an issue with a hard wire tether …..I’ll store that bit of info in case I get one that goes whacky with a tether,…..thanks!.

Pat

Well, if the ERR cruise takes off, or the sound board seems to ignore the serial data, that's usually when I suspect serial data issues.  It can and does happen with all hard wired serial data at times.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

This sounds like the ERR CC-M is losing the serial data signal.  I designed my Improved R2LC-R4LC Serial Port Buffer specifically to fix serial data loading issues.  Many times, adding the CC-M is enough to load the serial data and cause it's amplitude to be insufficient to be recognized by the CC-M

John, do you have any left for sale?  I would like to try one out, I just hope I have enough room to fit it under the shell as I already have the super chuffer and chuff generator installed.  I assume I would tie this module into the serial data line right after it leaves the R2LC?

One error I did notice today with my install, instead of 'daisy chaining' the serial connection into the Cruise Commander on Pin 1 of the J4 connector, then sending it back out to the soundmoudle on Pin 2, I simply piggbybacked the connection off the serial data line that goes to the tender and ran it to Pin 1 of the Cruise Commander.  Not sure if this matters.

@Lionel16 posted:

One error I did notice today with my install, instead of 'daisy chaining' the serial connection into the Cruise Commander on Pin 1 of the J4 connector, then sending it back out to the soundmoudle on Pin 2, I simply piggbybacked the connection off the serial data line that goes to the tender and ran it to Pin 1 of the Cruise Commander.  Not sure if this matters.

Certainly give that a try!  The serial output on the CC-M is buffered onboard, so it should do the same thing as my buffer.  Note that some CC-M versions (Odyssey diesel) do NOT have serial data on the output, but rather a signal called duty cycle.  This output is for diesel sounds, it feeds into the chuff input of the R2LC and triggers the RailSounds 4 boards to ramp up and down the prime mover RPM level.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

Note that some CC-M versions (Odyssey diesel) do NOT have serial data on the output, but rather a signal called duty cycle.  This output is for diesel sounds, it feeds into the chuff input of the R2LC and triggers the RailSounds 4 boards to ramp up and down the prime mover RPM level.

John, Im not  sure what version I have of the CC-M, but according to manual that came with it, pin 2 of the J4 plug should provide a serial data out to the sound board.  I will try daisy chaining the serial data line through the cruise commander, and see if it makes a difference.

Well, the documentation is generic, but the software in the Odyssey one is supposed to have duty cycle on that pin.

If you do daisy chain it and get no joy, you may have the other firmware.

Well, I tried daisy chaining the serial data line through the CC-M module, which I received good results.  Please see below video.

I decided to add the original R2LC module back to the engine, to so I could rule out any issues with the radio receiver board.

After i did this, the engine started to chuff eradically when standing still, also the smoke unit fan  appeared to pulsate at a complete stop.  This leaves me to believe there may be an issue with the chuff generator or super chuffer.  With this new issue, not sure what is now going on, ?

Are you sure the existing chuff switch isn't also still connected?

Do not rule out a worn out motor…..have you checked the shaft end play by gently pulling and pushing on the flywheel?….a slap worn out motor could be jumping away from John’s sensor giving erratic readings……also, a motor with wiped out end bushings will have a ton of lost motion ( motor begins to spin before turning the axle)  thus giving you even more erratic results,……this is one of the reasons the Kline scale Hudsons wind up on my plate for a complete chassis swap,….

Pat

This is what I’m mentioning in the above reply,…..2 out of 3 scale Hudsons I see come in exhibit this behavior,….it’s clear to see how this can cause issues with electronics packages,….note how close even the flywheel comes to touching the motor leads,……K4 construction is identical,….this chassis is untouched by me other than removing it from the shell,….hope yours isn’t this bad,….you can clearly see if your sensor is too close for comfort, it could easily slip away from the stripe tape,….

Pat

Well, I find posting a video does a better job of explaining the issue than trying to describe it, lol. 

I notice clearly that the Chuff-Generator is correctly pulsing only when moving, so I don't know what you have wired, but I'm guessing something is very wrong with the chuff wiring.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

Are you sure the existing chuff switch isn't also still connected?

Yes, the existing chuff switch is removed

@harmonyards posted:

This is what I’m mentioning in the above reply,…..2 out of 3 scale Hudsons I see come in exhibit this behavior,….it’s clear to see how this can cause issues with electronics packages,….note how close even the flywheel comes to touching the motor leads,……K4 construction is identical,….this chassis is untouched by me other than removing it from the shell,….hope yours isn’t this bad,….you can clearly see if your sensor is too close for comfort, it could easily slip away from the stripe tape,….

Pat

Pat, there is a tad bit over vertical play with my flywheel, but not nearly this bad, I'm guessing maybe about 1mm.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

I notice clearly that the Chuff-Generator is correctly pulsing only when moving, so I don't know what you have wired, but I'm guessing something is very wrong with the chuff wiring.

Glad to see it is not an issue with chuff generator or supper chuffer.  After the chuff outpout leaves the generator board,  I split the output, one wire goes to the super chuffer, the other wire goes to the  chuff input on the R2LC board.  I will check and make sure I have the correct pin for the R2LC.

What is odd, it worked fine for a while, then all of  a sudden this starts.  I did not change any wiring in the chuff circuit.  Is it possible this could be caused by the data serial line issue?  I would be interested in ordering your serial port buffer if you still have any left.

Make 100% sure that the chuff output from the C-G is ONLY wired to pin-17 on the R2LC and the Super-Chuffer pin-5  The only other thing I can think of is somehow the output of the C-G got cooked.

What version of the Chuff-Generator do you have?  Does the one you have a Q2 down near the wire connections?  Does it say REV 5 on it?

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

Make 100% sure that the chuff output from the C-G is ONLY wired to pin-17 on the R2LC and the Super-Chuffer pin-5  The only other thing I can think of is somehow the output of the C-G got cooked.

What version of the Chuff-Generator do you have?  Does the one you have a Q2 down near the wire connections?  Does it say REV 5 on it?

John,

I will check tomorrow to see what Rev I have on the C-G.  I will also check my wiring.  I guess I could measure the voltage of the output of C-G to see what values I receive when engine is standing still.

Thanks,

Nick

So, I did some more investigation tonight with the eratic chuff I have experienced.  I noticed this issue didn't occur till maybe 10 to 15 minutes after i powered the locomotive up.  Actually, it occured after I did R2LC feature reset.

If I remove the chuff input from the R2LC, I no longer receive the "machine gun" chuff from the sound board, but I still receive eratic performance out of the smoke unit fan when engine is standing still.  I believe this limits the issue to the super chuffer and sound generator.

I next removed the chuff input from the Super Chuffer board, this caused the smoke unit fan to stop pulsating at a very high rate.  I did verify that the chuff input is wired to pin 5.

John, could I ship the C-G board to you and let you take a look at it?  Or would I be better off just ordering a replacement from Hennings?  Please see below a pic of my chuff generator board.  I do not see a Rev number anywhere on the board.

There is some good news however, I was able to get the smoke unit in my engine working again after I put the engine in program mode, and performed a feature reset of the R2LC.

Nick, send me an email and we'll sort this out.

Nick and John,

When you can, please post the final problem (root cause) and what was done to correct.  Interesting thread.

It's looking like something happened to the output of the Chuff-Generator, we'll know when a new one is installed.