kline berk with cruise stoped dead?

update as of 3 hours later. after sitting and cooling down the engine seems to be working ok. what could be going on with this engine? is it time for an electronics upgrade?

How many cars were you pulling? These, like all K-Line engines have a small Mabuchi motor. Heavy loads will cause the motor to overheat.

Pete

Time for ERR/3rdrail Cruise commander M drop in.  For four chuffs per rev, you will also need Gunrunner's Chuff generator.

was pulling about 10 scale frieght cars. a mix of lionel mth. I did notice the boiler above the motor was very warm to the touch. maybe it was just the motor overheating. if I replace the kline cruse with the err cruise m can a larger motor be had for this engine?

If its a motor problem, ERR cruise won't help. Not sure about a motor swap. When Lionel rereleased these they did put a bigger motor there so it may be possible. Likely not a simple replacement though.

Pete

Pete has hit the nail on the head, I have one of the Kline berks, it does indeed have a dinky motor...its another on list of "to do" locos....however, once I had a look inside...oh boy!...its gonna be tight son!...its on the back burner till I pull up my big boy pants and commit to cutting.....Oh, and I aint forgot about ya Pete, I will post up a Mohawk thread soon, had to clear out some other lingering projects...………..Pat

The K-Line cruise boards are notorious for failing in a unique and interesting manner.  I've had them go up in smoke, fail to work only in conventional, fail to work only in command, stop generating chuffs, etc.  I have half a dozen of them with different failures, never have figured exactly what fails in each scenario.

As noted, since Lionel no longer has the K-Line cruise modules, the logical upgrade is the now available ERR Cruise Commander M.  Many K-Line locomotives had a mechanical chuff switch, but some of them used the cruise module to generate the chuff signal.  If you have one without the chuff switch, you'll have to provide a way to generate the chuff signal.  Obviously, my method is to use my Chuff-Generator to generate the chuff signal.  If you don't also install the Super-Chuffer II, you'll need a source of 5VDC power at about 40 milli-amps to power the Chuff-Generator.

just asking here is frank timko still in business? would he be the one to maybe install a bigger motor if I decide to do it. also would the larger legacy version motor work in this? aside from milling the space in the shell. just wondering. for now my engine is working  ok. after setting for a while it is back to normal. as stated above the load plus a solid 2 hours of run time overheated the motor. it now runs fine. when it finnally craps I will take all the info posted here and fix it so it works again. leave it to kline to make a great looking and highly detailed steam engine only to put a small motor and subpar electronics under the hood. thank god for upgrades.

The issue with K-Line engines is not only did they use a small motor in their scale steam engines, they also mounted it backwards from accepted practice. Frank Timko is still in business so it would be worth it to contact him. I have not seen the Lionel Berkshire so don't know if their motor is oriented like K-Lines or they reversed it more like their other engines. If its the same as K-Lines then maybe it would just be a case of getting the Lionel motor and fitting it to your engine.

Pete

Having two Kline berks i can tell you there is no room for a larger motor, being forward facing.  I run two berks in a lashup for extra pulling power.  Check out my youtube channel for videos of the berks.   As for Timko, he should still be in business.

Norton posted:

The issue with K-Line engines is not only did they use a small motor in their scale steam engines, they also mounted it backwards from accepted practice. Frank Timko is still in business so it would be worth it to contact him. I have not seen the Lionel Berkshire so don't know if their motor is oriented like K-Lines or they reversed it more like their other engines. If its the same as K-Lines then maybe it would just be a case of getting the Lionel motor and fitting it to your engine.

Pete

although mine has not completely crapped out like the OP's locomotive, it does start slacking in performance after running. noticeably warm towards the middle of the boiler casting.....inside aint nothing  like Lionel's guts. I plan on figuring out this swap to make a better locomotive out of it....like Pete said before...its gonna be a chore....Im exploring options, and considering a Lionel chassis if I can stumble across one (hopefully) …….I might tackle this project while on Xmas break.....Pat

superwarp1 posted:

Having two Kline berks i can tell you there is no room for a larger motor, being forward facing.  I run two berks in a lashup for extra pulling power.  Check out my youtube channel for videos of the berks.   As for Timko, he should still be in business.

did you swap out the driver for a cruise M in yours Gary? …...that might be the simplest fix for them......get another and lash them up!....your video is awesome! I just took a look at it!...……….Pat

looks as if the cruise m is the easy way to go here if and when the kline cruise craps out. the motor being small overheats running for long periods. especially with to heavy of a load. I may try to contact frank and see if he has worked on these before. maybe he can let me know if the larger lionel motor can be swaped in. I will run mine untill it craps out and then at the least put in the cruise m and gunrunners products. If a larger motor cant be added I will just have to live with the small kline motor.

Well, there is one wild card, if that's one of the models that doesn't have the chuff switch but generates it from the cruise module, you'll need to add a chuff switch.  Don't know if that is one of the models without the physical switch, just giving you the "heads up".

Again Roger, if the motor is overheating a Cruise M will not fix it. In fact any Cruise board only exacerbates the problem by upping the voltage when the motor slows down. The cruise board doesn't know if the speed change is from an external load like a grade or if internal friction is the reason. The slower a motor turns for a given voltage the more current it draws due to reduced counter emf. 

You can live with it if you just use it for shorter periods. If you want to run for hours you will have figure out a way to put a larger or more efficient motor like a Maxon in there? 

Pete

yes Roger, listen to what Pete is  telling you......the cruise M is not going to repair the problem with the motor overheating due to length of time and load running...…………….also as John points out, if chuff is generated through Kline's cruise board, then you'd have to figure out how to make it chuff again.....not a simple bolt on mod...and certainly not the fix for your issue...……….

thanks guys, the kline cruise is still working. the engine is still ok. like you guys have stated you can only operate it for short periods of time. I was thinking if the kline cruise did crap out err was the way to go. sounds like with the small motor the upgrade is not worth it. thanks for all the info on this engine. I now kinda wish I had not got it. I just love it though but now knowing the motor issue it maybe time to sell it while its still working ok. I really need to look for a legacy version. if any of you guys find out a motor solution post it here and share the fix. thanks for all the info.

Roger, just out of curiosity, what radius track do you use? and for arguments sake, is the loco cleaned and lubed properly?....anything binding...? cars all nice and free rolling? grades? ……..don't get me wrong, the motors are puny, and the factory cruise is sometimes jenky, but Im just curious if something else might be speeding up your overheating problem...……..Pat

pat all cars were free rolling and unfortunately my radius is 036, but it works.the engine is all cleaned and lubed well. just a side note I was pulling a homemade track cleaning car for a little bit. about 10 min with the track cleaning car at the rear of the tender with the other 10 cars. I ran the engine with just the 10 cars for about two hours solid. as stated here the boiler shell above the motor was very warm. I have never really ran this engine much since I got it. I had a new tether installed and I just made sure it was fuctioning ok then put it on the shelf with my other steamers. I have been running modern diesels lately. this weekend I got the urge to run some steam so I pulled that one down to run. that was the first time I have ran that engine that much since I bought it. since it fuctions ok now I belive the 2 hours solid run time is what caused my problem. guess if it were not for the problem I would have never got on the chat about it and found out about the puni motor. so Its all well. at least it works. if manufactures would make these right they could Save us all this hassel. guess kline wanted to save a buck and use thier standard motor they had been using for all other engines like that. who knows. just glad you guys made me aware of the issue. next time it will get limited run time untill the motor issue is solved. thanks again for all the help pat.

Roger, one test you could do if you have ammeters on your transformer or a multimeter with an ammeter with a 10 amp AC range is to run the engine without the tender and the smoke turned off (Aux1 8) and check the current draw. It should draw under 1 amp like this. If it is drawing more something may be binding. Also watch the meter and see if it spikes on every driver revolution. Another sign of something rubbing.

Pete

FWIW, I recommend this inexpensive Harbor Freight Clamp-On Meter for around the train layout.  Just the ability to measure current without tapping into wiring makes it worth the price.

thanks guys I will try that this weekend if I get time. thanks for the meter shown john. 

harmonyards posted:

superwarp1 posted:

Having two Kline berks i can tell you there is no room for a larger motor, being forward facing.  I run two berks in a lashup for extra pulling power.  Check out my youtube channel for videos of the berks.   As for Timko, he should still be in business.

did you swap out the driver for a cruise M in yours Gary? …...that might be the simplest fix for them......get another and lash them up!....your video is awesome! I just took a look at it!...……….Pat

I have EOB drop ins, in both engines which Mike Reagan, did a special firmware program to run with the Kline tac readers.  Awesome slow speed operation.