Legacy B unit with conventional A unit

First, is the unit a powered B unit?

Are you trying to use legacy on a conventional layout without a legacy base and remote, or at least a TMCC base and cab1?

@Ron_S posted:

First, is the unit a powered B unit?

Are you trying to use legacy on a conventional layout without a legacy base and remote, or at least a TMCC base and cab1?

Yes.  It’s one of the powered b-units with legacy rail sounds that lionel made specifically to give legacy capabilities to postwar F3s

I’m trying to get the b unit to have sound/horn while simultaneously having the legacy remote/base wheel control the speed of the a unit…

I can get the b unit programmed in and work with the controller…but Then I can’t get the a unit to run at the same time    

if I run the a unit conventional, then I can’t access the legacy features of the b unit, nor do they work at low speed/low voltage

If your F3’s are conventional, you are not going to be able to run them with a Legacy B unit unless the B unit is also conventional.

@Danr posted:

If your F3’s are conventional, you are not going to be able to run them with a Legacy B unit unless the B unit is also conventional.

Ron;

I know you can’t “lash up” (Mea Culpa) a conventional and command control unit, but... If the B unit is legacy, and is loaded into the legacy base with a unique ID, shouldn’t you be able to run the A unit conventionally from a transformer and use the Cab2 to address the features in the B unit???

It's possible to lash up a conventional unit and a Legacy unit, but still not guaranteed, as long as the Legacy 'B' unit is non-powered.  Command mode requires some minimum voltage, say 9 VAC.  If you're pulling the 'B' unit with a conventional 'A' unit, and the track voltage is above this minimum then the 'B' unit should respond to commands as you would expect.

The problem occurs when the voltage is below this minimum, which happens during stops, starts, and all slow running.  The 'B' unit will not see enough voltage on the track to properly power command mode, and you will get no Legacy features.

Throwing in a powered 'B' makes it even worse.  The 'B' unit will not be able to move until you reach the minimum voltage.  In this situation how do you get the train rolling?  The 'A' can pull as hard as it wants but will be going nowhere until the track voltage exceeds the minimum, and the command to move is received by the 'B'.

Mike

I am not aware of how to run a Legacy and conventional at the same time, as mentioned, the Legacy powered B unit must have minimum voltage to start and run, a non powered can run from the battery until voltage is high enough. You can turn the legacy off and run it conventionally, railsounds will work, I am not sure if all functions of sound will though.

@Apples55 posted:

Ron;

I know you can’t “lash up” (Mea Culpa) a conventional and command control unit, but... If the B unit is legacy, and is loaded into the legacy base with a unique ID, shouldn’t you be able to run the A unit conventionally from a transformer and use the Cab2 to address the features in the B unit???

The real short answer is no.  Mike and Ron have provided the reasons.  I don’t recall Lionel creating a powered Legacy B unit that was advertised to somehow give Legacy capabilities to a conventional F3.

Thx everyone.  Back to the drawing board.

im doing a freelance railroad so wanted to just change out body shells on otherwise good running units to get a loco roster going with units I already had.  Thought the legacy B would be the answer to making some of those older F3 a- units a little more fun  

I’m crawling with that train doing short line work and switching so running at low voltage and getting that diesel rumble was what I wanted…clearly that’s not happening!

saw a TMCC F3 A-B unit and will just pick that up, repaint the shells, and run it with the legacy remote programmed for TMCC mode / rail sounds and call it a day.   That will be guaranteed to work and be “close enough”

thanks all!

Do any of the powered B units also have sound?  Usually its either or...

@vacuefactor posted:

Thx everyone.  Back to the drawing board.

im doing a freelance railroad so wanted to just change out body shells on otherwise good running units to get a loco roster going with units I already had.  Thought the legacy B would be the answer to making some of those older F3 a- units a little more fun  

I’m crawling with that train doing short line work and switching so running at low voltage and getting that diesel rumble was what I wanted…clearly that’s not happening!

saw a TMCC F3 A-B unit and will just pick that up, repaint the shells, and run it with the legacy remote programmed for TMCC mode / rail sounds and call it a day.   That will be guaranteed to work and be “close enough”

thanks all!

What are you trying to pull?  I ask because a powered B unit could make a powered A unit unnecessary or are powered B units differently equipped motor-wise from powered A units.

If you power requirements are not excessive, you could run a single dummy A unit or two dummy A units for an AB or ABA set-up.

@Pingman posted:

What are you trying to pull?  I ask because a powered B unit could make a powered A unit unnecessary or are powered B units differently equipped motor-wise from powered A units.

If you power requirements are not excessive, you could run a single dummy A unit or two dummy A units for an AB or ABA set-up.

Pulling die cast hoppers and other mixed freight….small regional short line rail of maybe 5-8 cars/load

b unit was unpowered except for the railsounds electronics.  A unit was dual motor.  

vacuefactor - There was a similar type of query along the same lines as yours made in 2013 that you may also like to review entitled 'Can I use both a Legacy A Unit and a TMCC B Unit?'

I think Danr hit the nail on the head.  If we use the Texas Special non-powered F3 'B' unit (6-34547) which appeared in Lionel's 2008 Vol. 1 catalog, it is advertised as an F3 LEGACY RailSounds B-unit, and the intro to their advertising states in part 'Enhance the diesel sounds of your Classic (emphasis added) Lionel F3 sets...etc. etc.  So it was really only to allow the sounds of earlier non-equipped F3 versions to be enhanced - nothing else.

@PH1975 posted:

I think Danr hit the nail on the head.  If we use the Texas Special non-powered F3 'B' unit (6-34547) which appeared in Lionel's 2008 Vol. 1 catalog, it is advertised as an F3 LEGACY RailSounds B-unit, and the intro to their advertising states in part 'Enhance the diesel sounds of your Classic (emphasis added) Lionel F3 sets...etc. etc.  So it was really only to allow the sounds of earlier non-equipped F3 versions to be enhanced - nothing else.

Yes I think that description is what I misunderstood….I can get sound to work with the legacy controller, but then have to control speed with the ZW.  Since I need at least 9V on the track to get the legacy system to operate, I have to ramp up the power, thus negating the ability to have the loco crawl and groan.    Running moderate-full speed works fine, but that’s not as realistic on the type of layout I have.  I was hopeful to get both. alas