Legacy N&W J whistle steam poll

Patrick, I'm expecting you just might be able to do that before all the dust settles.  Those who purchase early will pay the premium though.

 

At a minimum, you'll most certainly be able to grab 606 or the RS5 version of 611 (both of which have road-number specific towercom but no whistle-steam) WAY south of $1K.  But I would expect we'll also see the new Legacy version head there as well if it's produced without steam effects.

 

David

Patrick that didn't hurt too bad lol. I just have a very hard time believing that people who say they were going to buy the engine aren't now because of whistle steam not being an option actually had the full intentions of purchasing it. Don't get me wrong, I am VERY disapointed it doesn't. On a side note Patrick 3rd rail just released their daylight.

If the J set had the smoking whistle I would want to buy it, without it, no thanks.

 

I love the smokin whistle on my Legacy B&O EM-1. I didnt think it would be a big deal, but once you have one with it, you want all your new locos to have it too.

I'm disapointed too, but I'll probably buy one.

 

Doug

It's a wonder how people even buy MTH Locomotives,they dont have whistle steam,but now that it's such a astronomical issue that a locomotive doesn't have it i expect MTH to go under very soon.

Of course MTH does not have locomotives with steam whistles...they don't make "premium" class steam engines.  

I will NOT purchase.

As I have indicated in another thread, this is such an easy decision.

Here is the math:

 

Lionel Legacy Santa Fe Northern List $1,299 = Whistle Steam = Bought two

 

Lionel Legacy Class J List $1,299 = NO Whistle Steam = Buy none

 

Sooooo easy.

Duh !

 

Scrappy

I'm at the opposite end of the spectrum, Scher . . . whistle steam is just not important to me.  A swinging bell - yes -- I'd pay more for that, but whistle steam. Not much.

 

I buy one and only one of every new, big steam loco Lionel offers - it's what I do.  The Northern is fantastic, and I have used the whistle steam maybe once or twice . . .  then turned it off.  It's just not important to me. 

 

I don't have a J.  If I had a good, recent Lionel J model in good condition it might be a different decision: but a whistle steam would not matter at all in my decision.  I've pre-order the one, and as I said on another thread, will repaint/relabel it in Union Pacific gray and black.  It will look good pulling a UP passenger consist.

 

Whistle steam had the same impact on my decision to pre-order the GS-2, too - Actually, I didn't even check if it had it, since, for me, I don't really care.

I think making statements such as  " Of course MTH does not have steam whistles...They don`t make "premium" class steam engines, is an inflammatory statement, and has no business on this forum or this topic. As an owner of Lionel, MTH, Weaver, Atlas O, and 3rd Rail locomotives, all have their strengths and their faults. Lets keep the discussion civil and non-judgmental.  

OF course let us NOT forget, the concept/idea of a steaming (smoking) whistle and swinging bell was introduced three-years ago April York buy MIKE WOLF/MTH!!!

 

It was nine-months later Lionel announced they would do it.  

 

So conceived by MTH but first out by Lionel.

Schumann....it was just a joke.  Please note the winking emoticon.  Obviously (or perhaps not so obvious to some) my response to KevinB's sarcastic (and funny in my opinion) comment that it is a wonder that people even by MTH locomotives and that he expects MTH will go under very soon.  It is not that serious for me, but sorry if I offended you. 

I took it as a joke, too.  I know their are people who are really proponents of one company or the other - much like a Ford vs. Chevy thing.  Facts don't seem to matter sometimes - you like what you like. 

 

I seem both Lionel and MTH as both having a bit too much concern about "features" and feature comparison with competition.  While features do matter, to me, the look and "quaulity" of details, the sound, and the smooth running at low speeds (in conventional, to me) are what sells the loco.

Aha!  Our first (and so far only) York was Oct 09 and I remember a Gauge ONE Triplex with a smoking whistle and perhaps a swinging bell. Is that what you are talking about here Ron?

Not buying any of the new releases from the new Lionel catalog because there are no steam effects or Visionline steamers.  If the 611 had steam effects, I would sell my older 611 and buy the new one. 

 

 I am busy buying up the older releases with steam effects.  Not all of them, just the ones I'm interested in.  Just bought the SF 3751.  It would have been nice to have more options from this catalog. 

 

Rich

Sam, as I recall Mike/MTH introduced these features with a 3-rail scale Hudson at York 3 or 4 years ago April.  I still see the video in minds eye.  But also seem to recall that the only MTH produced application of the features was in One-Gauge  a Triplex or Angus.  But not really sure that came to fruition??.

Neal Young mentioned it years ago.

"introduced" is an interesting way to describe MTH's steaming whistle.

I was introduced to a gorgeous brunette in school once, but she wouldn't go out with me.

 

Scrappy

AND Lionel had a steaming steam chest effect many more years ago on an engine as I recall.

I was on the fence about the J, now there is no chance I will buy it. The major disappointment for me is that I am waiting for a heavy Mikado, and I really want it to have steam effects. If they are adding NOTHING to the J, then what chances do I have sitting around waiting for a Heavy Mikado?

 

The Vision line is not gone... im sure they are cooking up something for volume 1 2013.

 

But here is another issue... why no more vision freight? No more cars with sound?

 

By visiting these forums, and by everyone probably asking the same questions every 2 minutes at york (that is what I assume happened), they have to be saying after this catalog, that the new features need to be in our product now, even if it increases the price.

 

So the other big question is, what is going on with MTH? Are they going to start adding these features? Did anyone ask this at York?

Very perceptive of her. She probably had a feeling you were bad luck.

 

First in No. 8100 (a N&W J - how 'bout that?!) cataloged in 1981. 31 years ago! And Marx introduced the feature years before that in their No. 1666.

Even if an older J goes for $700, I suppose a lot of people will think that if they can get a brand new J, now with Legacy features, for an additional $400 over a used older non-Legacy version (especially understanding that the new one is effectively selling for less than the previous one originally did), they'll do it.

 

People can say they're not getting the J because it doesn't have the steam whistle. That's OK. But then they won't have a J, either.

 

So maybe they really didn't need it that much.

Not incorporating vision smoke/whist/bell features on the Legacy "J" is like Lionel placing the new smoke unit in locomotives in the 40's and after a few years not installing the unit in their locomotives anymore.  This is the 21st Century, you raise the bar you should maintain or exceed those standards or at least have the option.

 

TEX

Steve

 

"My my wiener dog make it across the tracks"

 

Actually, I look at it this way... namely some folks would rather purchase products on their terms (since they are, after all, spending a significant amount of $$$ on these toys) rather than walking away from the table feeling they've purchased something at a premium price level that's less than it could have been.  Very reasonable position to take, and I completely understand it.

 

David

That 054 stuff is just too large for my layout, (Lionmaster for me). If I could run any of those beauties, it would stop me from buying because of the lack of the steam whistle, which I think is one of the greatest effects on a steam engine. The technology is there (it's a larger engine and shoud fit), so everything should go forward from this point. Just play the waiting game and it will come around. Sorry big L.

I can understand Scrappy's view on no whistle steam.

I have a semi scale loco at home, a Berk I think, conventional, I think from a set, sorry for being vague, but it has whistle steam effect. This was a $250 loco.

Surely, whistle steam should be on ALL top of the range steamers?

>>>Even if an older J goes for $700, I suppose a lot of people will think that if they can get a brand new J, now with Legacy features, for an additional $400 over a used older non-Legacy version (especially understanding that the new one is effectively selling for less than the previous one originally did), they'll do it.<<

 

You've missed the point. I run TMCC engines as much as Legacy With the J or GS-2, I see Legacy as a mild upgade from TMCC.

Its not enough in itself to upgrade from the older model.

Remember, far and away the greatest advancement in command control is speed control. When compared, whistle steam is so far down the list it fell off the chart.

The issue is Vision Line.. It never was promoted to be new seriously detailed engines at a premium price. It was touted to be advancements in Legacy that would trickle down to the classic line in future releases even in older engines. (example the Hudson).

And there lies the rub. The J is a reissue. (third time) the heavy lifting paid (tooling costs) with the initial release.

The cost of adding these minor new features should have been applied to this release just as newer features were added to the second.

Pretty simple math here 

Forget the spin... IMO, They didn't do it but priced it as if they did..

If you find the previous J at $700 or less, a beautiful running and sounding engine, it's far and away the better deal.

Joe  

Not buying any of the new engines since they don't have the steam/whistle or cylinder emission. Price is too high for what you are getting with none of these features. Drop the price $200 & I think a lot more folks would consider. It appears Lionel is going backwards. Give us these great features in lower price engines & then drop the ball.

 

Let them sit in Lionel inventory for awhile, and you'll see the price drop MORE than $200.     Just look at the kinds of "sales" being offered nowadays on locomotives WITH STEAM EFFECTS that are still sitting in dealer inventories!  I'm thinking a price drop in the neighborhood of $350-$400 or so will have more folks reaching for their wallets in sizable numbers.  But then again... some folks may not purchase at all without the newer steam effects. 

 

I'm not saying this to hurt dealers by any means.  The real problem is at the Lionel end, where the decision was made to move forward without the steam features that have become standard fare on premium priced locomotives nowadays.  Lionel is cutting corners here, and they're getting caught with their hands in the cookie jar... so to speak.

 

Whether or not enough folks trip over themselves purchasing any of the new locomotives will determine how quickly these products are offered at more appropriate price levels.  Naturally, there will ALWAYS be folks who buy something at all costs.  Often those are emotional or impulse purchases.  But in general, we're seeing a critical mass of folks responding here on the forum who are doing their homework, and drawing the very accurate conclusion that these locomotives just don't measure up vs. the premium price level asked.

 

David

I will wait until they are on sale next summer.  Its a shame though,  they could have been great.  May be next time....

If nobody else pre-orders the J, Mohawk or GS's, and those that have cancel their orders, it will send a very strong message back to Lionel. I doubt you will look back on these purchases as being the right choice a few years down the road.

 

If it's not what you hoped for - don't order it. The best thing that can happen here is for the pre-orders to be so low that they cancel them and go back to the drawing board.

That's what it comes down to for those who don't already have a J. Is it worth another $400 to get the Legacy version, or is it better to save the money and get the older one? Given how well the later version pre-Legacy engines run with the Legacy control system, the older one would be a tempting buy for many.

 

Of course, given that the new passenger cars only come with an engine, you'd have to track down a set of the older cars as well, adding a bit of complication. 

I have the 611 and 5 passenger cars (4 car set + diner). Engine has only been run about 15 minutes / cars never out of the box. I let Kirk at just trains talked me into it. Nice engine but not sure I will really ever run it. Can someone tell me what is the set worth? Still not sure I want to sell, but might put money away for a hopeful legacy cab forward.

>>Is it worth another $400 to get the Legacy version, or is it better to save the money and get the older one? <<

 

Last night running diesels (giving steam a break) while switching between the baseball and football game and totally tuning out politics, I had the CN Dash-9 from 2001 and the ATSF legacy GP-9 from 2010 both hauling long freight consists.

The older TMCC engine under TMCC mode in legacy ran smooth and slow with sounds although different were every bit as enjoyable as the the newer GP-9 with all the latest features..

If theres a lesson to be learned here, its the J and GS-2 delivered without the features you've come to expect.. A shrewd marketing ploy designed to rip the dollars out of your pocket over and over and over again.

...Sorry Lionel.. Its a clever move but I ain't falling for it...

Joe  

The engine is worth about $600-$700 and the cars are about $500-$600. Once the new set is released I would expect the prices of the older J's along with the cars to come down.

It just occurred to me that the Lionel K-4 is a re-make of the k-line model using the same tooling. Legacy electronics and whistle steam where added. It was offered at a list price of $899. Does Lionel's argument that it would be too costly to add whistle steam really hold water? Are we really asking for too much?

It just occurred to me that the Lionel K-4 is a re-make of the k-line model using the same tooling. Legacy electronics and whistle steam where added. It was offered at a list price of $899. Does Lionel's argument that it would be too costly to add whistle steam really hold water? Are we really asking for too much?

I changed my mind about the smokin whistle, and ordered the 611 Pocahontas set.

Sell Out. 

I have N&W 612 with legacy and it is a great engine. Already have the previous run cars. 

 

As far as whistle steam goes, who cares!!