Lionel 6-84271 Baltimore & Ohio GP9 #3419 Gears do not line up properly. Is there a fix that does not invlove Lionel Service Dept?

I do not know why Lionel has so much slop in its wheel sets on diesel locomotives. This excessive slop is ridiculous nonsense and not needed; especially on a 4-axle unit. 

I have seen this before on my purchased units. Here is what I do. I take one or two 671M-22 e-clips and clip them onto the axle opposite of the gears to make sure that the gears remain fully engaged. The Santa Fe GP30 below has been running like this for at least 6 years. If you look at the wheels opposite of the gears there are two 671M-22 e-clips on the axles. 

Gears that do not mesh properly wear excessively and will fail prematurely. 

All my units have at least one e-clip on the axle. 

WBC,  Thank you for the information about the e-clips as a solution for aligning the gears properly.

Sincerely, John Rowlen

Return it to place of purchase. Let them deal with it. 

That looks like the wheel and gear are not pressed far enough onto the axle and that axle may be out of guage.

Are you having any tracking issues through turnouts etc?

I really want to preorder some of the new legacy Fa's....maybe not.

I had a new SD40 with one wheel that was way out. I took the truck off and then side frames and lightly tapped the wheel with a rubber mallet while supporting the axle on the other side and the wheel slid right into place.

I have a Lionel SD40 that has a similar movement, but not as severe. It works without any modification. I have to order those wheel clips though. 

WBC posted:

I do not know why Lionel has so much slop in its wheel sets on diesel locomotives. This excessive slop is ridiculous nonsense and not needed; especially on a 4-axle unit. 

I have seen this before on my purchased units. Here is what I do. I take one or two 671M-22 e-clips and clip them onto the axle opposite of the gears to make sure that the gears remain fully engaged. The Santa Fe GP30 below has been running like this for at least 6 years. If you look at the wheels opposite of the gears there are two 671M-22 e-clips on the axles. 

Gears that do not mesh properly wear excessively and will fail prematurely. 

All my units have at least one e-clip on the axle. 

We have an F unit here where you can hear a screech when running. Think it is when one gear slips? Think this will solve it? If so I'll get some to install. Thanks

Is this a special E-clip size wise?

 John, fears of an E-clip falling out are kinda unwarranted.  Maybe if it were undersized and over-hardened it might...still only might. It is no more likely to happen than a screw falling out imo..... maybe less so. 

A snug fit will grip and spin with the axle, and long term wear should then be on the trust surface of the bearing where it belongs. If it is stamped, put the sharp edge facing the wheel so it doesn't scrape the thrust surface of the 🐻....oops...bearing.  Chamfering endges smoothly is really best though.

Ricko, 

The 6-84271 B&O #3419 engine runs and appears to be the correct gauge on my Atlas O O-72 track.  The potential for current and future gear issues is my concern.  I am preparing for the time when there is no warranty to fix the gear problem.

I hate to bash Lionel, but my first B&O #3419 arrived with a short vertical rail stanchion that pulled the railing downward.  It went back to the dealer.

My Lionel 6-81323 Nickel Plate #482 arrived on Tuesday missing a roof lift ring on the front left of this new sealed engine. No broken part was in the box.  It is on its way back to the dealer.

My Santa Fe SD40 #5018 arrived missing a front air hose.  Lionel said they had no replacement air hose parts.  It also had four loose screws in the bottom of the box. That engine went back to the dealer.

My Santa Fe SD40 #5006 arrived from Nichols Smith Trains and is also missing one of the three front left air hoses.  There is a little nib where one hose should be.  Joey is sending the part.

My H-10 #1773 from the Coal Hauler set had grit in the silver smoke stack paint.  Joey replaced the engine.

My H-10  #1688 had a intermittent short that gave me a Cab blink.  It went back to another dealer.

My Niagara #6013 keeps throwing off traction tires.  Katie is sending new tires for me to try.  They have not arrived yet.  I have an RA, but don't want to send the Niagara in because my FEF-3 got a nice scratch in the roof when it went to Lionel Service.

My Allegheny #1604 does not run correctly after service by Lionel.

My CSXF40PH #9999 just returned from Lionel for the third time and Dean emailed me to say that someone, not Lionel, severely damaged the screw holes on the engine by using the wrong size screws on the engine. He also said the volume control pod was unplugged and the engine had a short.  It ran before I sent it in for the volume problem on the third trip.  I did not open this engine after it returned from the second trip, so the unplugged volume pod was forgotten when the engine was serviced for a roof hatch that would not open on the second trip.  The roof hatch was missed on the first trip to Lionel, and fixed on the second trip.

Are you getting all of this?  There may be a quiz.

Thank you for your suggestions.

Sincerely, John Rowlen

Are you getting it John? You continue to buy.

 To quote Albert Einstein. "The definition of insanity is to repeat the same action over and over and expect a different result."

Yes.

John Rowlen posted:

I did get my refund check from Lionel last week for the Vision Line GG1 #4913 that Lionel could not fix after three attempts.  This stuff is starting to screw with my head.  Is that insanity?

 

Yep!

Do you ever buy bread?  If so, do what I do.  Cut these down and use them as axle shims.  They won't wear anything, they don't short if they happen to fall off (never happened to me), and they're free.

Gunrunner John,  The bread I buy has twist-ties.  Do you think Lionel would have bread clips in their parts department?  They don't have air hoses for a SD40 engine.

I do appreciate the advice.  Thank you.

Sincerely, John Rowlen

You need cheaper bread John.

I saw some of those plastic bag clips, now I have to find them.

Andrew

BobbyD posted:

We have an F unit here where you can hear a screech when running. Think it is when one gear slips? Think this will solve it? If so I'll get some to install. Thanks

I do not believe that any type of shimming will help with gear slippage. My best guess that the screech is due to the worm or motor bushings needing some lubrication. 

Adriatic posted:

Is this a special E-clip size wise?

 

There is nothing special about these e-clips. Lionel uses these e-clips all over a number of different products and applications. They are used on either side of the thrust bearing on modern AC motors and on the bottom of the thrust bearings on postwar AC motors. They are often used to secure trucks onto the chassis for locomotives and cars. Thus, they are quite common and inexpensive. They fit onto the ~3/16 inch axle snugly. As others have mentioned, the smooth side of the e-clip is next to the truck while the rougher side is next to the wheel. If I use 2 e-clips, then the smooth side is next to the truck, smooth side is next to the wheel while the two rough sides contact each other on the interior.  

However, the plastic bread clip comes free with a loaf of bread purchase. 

WBC,  I have some 3/16" Steel E-clips I used to replace all the Lionel silver e-clips on my sixty-nine 21" passenger cars I purchased and detailed with Preiser 65602 Unpainted Seated People that I painted in 2018.  I had three passenger cars arrive with trucks dangling by the wires that I repaired with new steel 3/16" clips from Home Depot.  The soft silver clips opened up easily on many cars that were about to drop a truck before I replaced the e-clip.  It was usually the e-clip on the truck opposite the wire up to the cars lights. (Non-Vestibule end or rear of car) 

I just bought more 3/16" Steel E-clips for the four Add-on UP cars and nine Santa Fe cars arriving in December 2019.  I will give this a try.

Sincerely, John Rowlen

Very interesting thread, is it easy to find the eclips? What size should one purchase? Here’s my B&O same vintage.. The first picture of the truck is without moving the wheel. The other is by moving the wheel..I think an eclip or two would be of help. The other truck is almost straight with the gears...Wow, what happened to the Quality Control In Lionel’s Manufacturing Department? Thank You.

I have a 10 year old Legacy SD-80MAC with the same issue, so the QC has been steady for that time.   It now sports a few bread closures, hasn't missed a beat since I installed them.

Oh man seen that on a bunch of engines. Thought maybe was by design for going around curves. Guess not.

Leapin Larry,  I like your taste in GP9 engines.  I looked at your posts many times as I considered buying my B&O GP9.  Thank you for the pictures.

Gunrunner John,  As always, I am grateful for your technical help and sense of humor.

To Lionel,  I am a lifelong, loyal customer who wants to see the hobby continue for many years.  If your products did not matter to me, I would not post.  I guard my collection with the greatest of care, maintaining the engines and cars properly. 

I now must go through Dean for any service, not customer service, which is leading me to return items back to the dealers, rather than sit on the phone, only to be told that I must talk to Dean, who is not available.  I have not spoken to Dean in over three years.  OGR Forum is my only communication link with Lionel, along with Lionel's Dealer network, because of this policy of Lionel's choice.  My large purchases of Lionel's products has become a liability, rather than an asset.  A first time buyer of a cheap starter set gets better service.

Sincerely, John Rowlen

From Bad to Worse

Mom and I finished a puzzle after dinner and I decidied to open the recent return from Lionel Service.

When I removed the CSX F40PH #9999 from the box, a screw fell to the floor.  Dean had said that someone had stripped some of the screws on the body shell.  I know it wasn't me.

As I lifted the engine, the chassis shifted forward under the body shell.  All of the mounting posts are broken from the body shell.  I don't know how the posts can be re-attacked because they appear to be shattered.  The screws that Lionel put into the posts held up, but all the posts broke away from the body shell.

This engine has been back to Lionel for three repair trips.  Many people have put a lot of time and effort into fixing the engine and this is what was returned to me.  It is obvious shipping damage.  Lionel would not return an engine in this condition, would they?

Mom is sickened by this Lionel Train experience and wants me to sell it all.  We are both tired of the constant need for repairs.  The damage is not Lionel's fault.  I just can't believe the bad luck I have had with Lionel products.

Any suggestions?

Sincerely,  John Rowlen

Sounds like a mail carrier was playing football with it and spiked it on the ground. 

I think your local delivery system needs some attention from the district or regional management for one. The amount of delivery damage you see seems high IMO.  You need to insure and start taking video of the box openings as proof you aren't doing it, as denial has been a growing form of customer service pretty much everywhere. 

  I would say there is something lacking in the packing or mnfg packaging as well unless the box looked like a hi-lo ran over it.

  Im curious of the time frame of all of this... it's approaching a reference charts worth of complexity. (not your fault it seems)

   Hope can be a heavy load to drop all at once and not have it land on your toe. I was there during another era. I can only wish you better luck in future choices and maybe suggest exploring other manufacturers more and maybe some used "great runners"...like a pampered used car with all the bugs worked out   .        I don't quite have a bead on your collection style for the rails besides passenger cars and "small crowds" but imo you're too invested personally to "sell it all!" and and give up ... you have to adapt.  Maybe stop to appreciate what you do have and do for while.

While that's certainly a bummer, I've rebuilt tons of mounting posts using brass tubing and JB-Weld.  Obviously, you shouldn't have to do this with a new locomotive, but sometimes it happens.  I just fixed some in a repair I got recently, probably the same football player was the shipping clerk.

John, just curious, was the shipping box damaged when your F40PH was returned?

Seems to me that all the manufactures need to find a better way of attaching the body to the frame. Current design simply is not designed for repetitive removal. Over tightened screws and plastic do not work together very well. 

Well, now I have re-read this thread and have a question, where can I buy these little e-clips? I am going to begin looking under all my diesels and correct any of these issues before they become a Big Issue. Great post John, sorry for all your situations. 

Leapin Larry,  The 3/16" Steel E-clips are available from Home Depot in a bag of two clips.  Home Depot only stocks six little bags at a time, so you may want to go on line to purchase more of them.  I have received two different brands from Home Depot in my large order for 48 packs.  They were 50 cents, but the price was 60 cents for two when I bought some last month.

I think a good pair of needle-nose pliers should hold the clip firmly, and yet allow you to get to the axle.  The opposite side of the wheel-gear is the side I plan to place the clip.  You want to pull the wheel-gear back to the side of the truck with the idler gears.

Sincerely, John Rowlen

Paul Romano,  Here are some pictures of the boxes for the CSX F40PH #9999.  They look to be in very good shape, except for some chips out of the Styrofoam cradle.  I am following this post with my speculation of the timeline for the damage to the CSV F40PH #9999.

Sincerely, John Rowlen

Thanks John, I appreciate your help and I will place pictures after I do the upgrade on the trucks. This forum is so educational. We have a Home Depot here in Clarksville, Tennessee. 

Trust is important to me, and the three Repair Trips and damage to the new CSX F40PH #9999 has brought a break in the good faith relationship I thought I had with Dean at Lionel.  We both appear to mistrust each other.

Timeline Speculation:  I purchased the CSX F40 PH #9999 from Nicholas Smith's website this past summer of 2018. 

It arrived with a short due to a pinched wire behind the engineer at the middle body shell post. I opened the engine and wrapped the wires resolving the short.  The Body Shell roof hatch to the Run/program switch would not open. I believe a roof ring was missing too.

1st trip to Lionel:  The engine was to be inspected and checked for the wire above the front motor that was shredded on many of the F40PH engines.  The engine was to be checked for any issue.  According to Dave in an OGR post there were several things to look for.

The engine returned and the roof hatch would not open.  I had to remove the Body shell to access the run/program switches and volume pod.  The smoke was also not working now.

2nd Trip to Lionel:  The engine roof hatch was repaired and the smoke was fixed. 

The engine returned with the smoke working and the hatch opening.  There was a light blue spot on the roof.  The volume was very soft, so I turned the Volume pod and it did not raise or lower the volume.  I did NOT open the engine because the rood hatch now could be opened for programming.  I called Lionel and received the third RA for this engine.  Perhaps Body shell post damage was stating, but insignificant for the tech to put in his notes.  I did not receive a service report on the second trip back to me.  There was NO Lionel paperwork.

3rd Trip to Lionel:  The engine arrived at Lionel with a dead short that it did not have when I sent the engine back.  Dean emailed me to say that someone had messed the engine up badly, and it was not his technical staff.  The sound Volume Pod was unplugged in the engine.  The engine was missing several screws, and too big of a screw may have been used on the engine.  (Side note:  Whenever I open an engine, it is on a clear table and all parts are placed in Zip Lock plastic bags or organized piles indicating where they were removed from, so reassembly is correctly done.)

I am guessing that the unplugged Volume was missed at Lionel when the engine Roof hatch was repaired on the second trip. OR  the Return shipping on the second trip loosened the plug due to rough handling.  The Third trip back to Lionel could have also caused the damage. I did not open this engine since the first time it was sent to Lionel and returned to me with a still unrepaired,  stuck roof hatch.  I did not notice missing body screws when I sent it in for the third time.

3rd Return of Damaged Engine:  The pictures in this post show an engine with all the Shell Body Posts broken from the engine shell.  Some posts look like they may have been previously broken as Dean's email indicated.  They have chips at the base where they fasten to the chassis. 

I have emailed pictures to Dean.  I, and maybe you too, can no longer get service without Dean's approval.  Lionel changed its way it takes returns as of mid December 2018. The new policy as explained by Katie is "1. Dean must email Service that they can issue an RA. 2. All RAs have to be approved by Dean.  Some type of internal number follows Dean's communication to Katie and the service crew." Unfortunately, Dean is never available. Dean is not in his office.  Dean is on vacation.  I must email Dean.  Dean must email service.

The policy was designed to slow down the number of repairs to Lionel, as it was explained to me.  There is some kind of irony that Lionel's email address is "TalkToUS".  I am sorry. I could not resist this comment.

Hopefully Lionel and I will mend his fractured relationship.  My Mom's cousin who served as a judge and state representative always instilled the importance of the truth and open honesty.  My youth was spent as Master Councilor of my DeMolay masonic youth Chapter.  As a leader, Degree of Chevalier, and long time teacher, I  swear these statements are the truth.

The truth is being eroded today, thanks to American politics.  Everyday I get a telephone call from a salesman who is offering me a back brace, leg brace, warranty program, etc. that they say I inquired about.  I never contacted them.  Lying will erode the American way of life and eventually threaten democracy.

Sincerely, John Rowlen

Although working on our trains is one of the great pleasures of this great hobby personally I never open up a new locomotive while under warranty because it can void the warranty 

John Rowlen posted:

From Bad to Worse

Mom and I finished a puzzle after dinner and I decidied to open the recent return from Lionel Service.

When I removed the CSX F40PH #9999 from the box, a screw fell to the floor.  Dean had said that someone had stripped some of the screws on the body shell.  I know it wasn't me.

As I lifted the engine, the chassis shifted forward under the body shell.  All of the mounting posts are broken from the body shell.  I don't know how the posts can be re-attacked because they appear to be shattered.  The screws that Lionel put into the posts held up, but all the posts broke away from the body shell.

This engine has been back to Lionel for three repair trips.  Many people have put a lot of time and effort into fixing the engine and this is what was returned to me.  It is obvious shipping damage.  Lionel would not return an engine in this condition, would they?

Mom is sickened by this Lionel Train experience and wants me to sell it all.  We are both tired of the constant need for repairs.  The damage is not Lionel's fault.  I just can't believe the bad luck I have had with Lionel products.

Any suggestions?

Sincerely,  John Rowlen

That screw is too big to be a body screw. Body screws are much smaller diameter with a fine thread. Whoever put those screws in twisted and broke the body mounts. You will need a replacement shell with correct hardware.

John Rowlen posted:

Trust is important to me, and the three Repair Trips and damage to the new CSX F40PH #9999 has brought a break in the good faith relationship I thought I had with Dean at Lionel.  We both appear to mistrust each other.

I have emailed pictures to Dean.  I, and maybe you too, can no longer get service without Dean's approval.  Lionel changed its way it takes returns as of mid December 2018. The new policy as explained by Katie is "1. Dean must email Service that they can issue an RA. 2. All RAs have to be approved by Dean.  Some type of internal number follows Dean's communication to Katie and the service crew." Unfortunately, Dean is never available. Dean is not in his office.  Dean is on vacation.  I must email Dean.  Dean must email service.

 

I believe  Dean is retiring soon, if he hasn't already ( no surprise there). Please let us know how the new service manager is.

Superchiefer84,  Thank you for the observation.  The body screws in most of my Lionel engines are small with a washer-like Philips head screw holding the body in place.

Dean's email to me stated that Lionel had to use larger screws to hold the body on due to the stripped posts.

I hope Lionel has a replacement body shell.  Parts don't seem to be available sometimes.

Sincerely, John Rowlen

RickO posted:

I believe  Dean is retiring soon, if he hasn't already ( no surprise there). Please let us know how the new service manager is.

Last I heard, Dean is not leaving just yet.

I priced the 3/16" E-clips at Home Depot and Lowes.  Home Depot charges 60 cents for two Everbilt 3/16" E-clips.  Lowes charges $1.27 or $1.43 for two Hillman 3/16" E-clips, depending on the store location according to Hal on Lowes Chatline.  I asked why and was told "quality".  Hmm?

I used the Everbilt Steel 3/16" E-clips on all sixty-nine of my Lionel 21" passenger cars with great success.  At that time they were 50 cents for two e-clips.

I used six on my Lionel Baltimore and Ohio GP9 #3419 that started this thread.  The gear shown out of alignment with the idler gears was moved to half-engage the idler gears with two 3/16" e-clips on the axle, opposite the gear.  This pulled the gear closer to the idlers.  The gear in the same position on the other truck also received two e-clips.  One e-clips was used on the other axles.

Applying 3/16" E-clips:  Face the rounded stamped side toward the gear box. The backside could have rough edges. (The only moving surface will be the side against the gear box.  All others turn with the axle and wheel.)   I put on the first clip with needle-nose pliers and slid it toward the gear box, to allow the second e-clip to be sandwiched between the first and the wheel.  The wheel acts as an anvil when I press the clip on with the squared nose of the needle-nose pliers.  I could not install the second e-clip with the first against the wheel.  The second must be sandwiched between the first and the wheel.

I hope this helps those who are checking their gear alignments on the new GP9 engines.  I plan to check all my diesel engines, especially my PRR, NYC, and Rio Grande Geeps from the previous run.

Smoke fluid collects in stack diverter:  Both times I filled my engine through the smoke stack, with Lionel Premium Smoke Fluid, the fluid collected in the smoke diverter that sits on top of the smoke unit.  To fill my engine, I must remove the roof section with the air tanks and fill the smoke unit directly.  The shortest path to the smoke unit is through the stack nearest the long roof end.  Blowing down the stack does not move the smoke fluid.

Sincerely, John Rowlen