Lionel 6462 gondola with Scout trucks ?

As I understand it, after Lionel discontinued the incompatible Scout couplers the remaining inventory of Scout trucks were used up with magnetic couplers applied. Was there any pattern to which cars received these modified Scout trucks?

There are specific cars that have scout trucks, with magnetic couplers replacing the odd-ball scout ones. The cars that come to mind are: 6032 gondola, 6035 tank, 6034 boxcar and 6037 caboose. I think that is all of them.

Lionel started offering the 480 conversion couplers to convert the 1000 series scout cars to magnetic couplers. I wonder how many people have seen those conversion couplers packaged as a pair, two pieces in one envelope. I didn't know such a thing existed until I got one in a lot of stuff.

If you can go back and look, it was probably a fairly common 6002, same as the 6462 but with semi-scout trucks.

Actually, a 6002 is relatively scarce car #. Not worth much, but by far harder to find than a 6462 or 6562.  

I stumble across them all the time.

I have the same gondola. I got it in a junk lot I bought at auction. I guess they're not rare at all. 

THe 6002 was made only in 1950, and only in 1 set with a 6110 locomotive. Greenburg lists the car as scarce, but no real collector interest. The car had no load.

C W Burfle posted:

As I understand it, after Lionel discontinued the incompatible Scout couplers the remaining inventory of Scout trucks were used up with magnetic couplers applied. Was there any pattern to which cars received these modified Scout trucks?

There are specific cars that have scout trucks, with magnetic couplers replacing the odd-ball scout ones. The cars that come to mind are: 6032 gondola, 6035 tank, 6034 boxcar and 6037 caboose. I think that is all of them.

Lionel started offering the 480 conversion couplers to convert the 1000 series scout cars to magnetic couplers. I wonder how many people have seen those conversion couplers packaged as a pair, two pieces in one envelope. I didn't know such a thing existed until I got one in a lot of stuff.

Thank you Mr Burfle, I reckon those would be the usual cars with factory-modified Scout trucks. The 6462 gondola was included in a lot of O27 sets. I think the 6002 gondola was identical to the 6462 except for the number printed on the side. Lionel had some occasional irregularities and it doesn't seem impossible that a 6462 may have got Scout trucks from the factory. The way those particular gondola bodies are attached to the metal frame with bent tabs, it would be apparent if it had been modified later.

Well here it is, I finally got around to taking pics. Either it's a 6462 that mistakenly got Scout trucks, or it was supposed to be a 6002 gondola that mistakenly got a body numbered 6462. When I got the car it did not appear to have been previously disassembled, but I took it apart to clean rusty wheels. The 6462 with usual bar-end trucks (brake wheels added) is probably a 1951 version because it came with a 2175W outfit.

Upper car in lower pic, you can see that I bent the metal frame tabs to disassemble and repair the car. But it appeared original when I got it. Possibly a factory anomaly which I find slightly interesting.

If you look at the tabs on the one with the Scout side frames, you can see it's been disassembled at least once since leaving the factory.

ADCX Rob posted:

If you look at the tabs on the one with the Scout side frames, you can see it's been disassembled at least once since leaving the factory.

Yes, as I mentioned I disassembled it myself to clean up rusty wheels. It appeared original when I got it, although you seem to find this difficult to believe.

I can't imagine taking the body off the stamped frame to clean wheels, hence the disbelief.

ADCX Rob posted:

I can't imagine taking the body off the stamped frame to clean wheels, hence the disbelief.

The plastic body covers the rivet, which was also too rusty to pivot freely. Wheels-trucks-rivet-frame were all seriously rusty and needed complete cleaning. The real disbelief is that I bother to spend the time to rehabilitate somewhat commonplace items.

I'm not sure if we're talking semantics here or what, but the trucks do not have to be removed to clean wheels & axles, or the majority of the truck bolsters. The axles just pop out of the bolsters with the wheels as a three piece assembly.

The plastic body covers the rivet, which was also too rusty to pivot freely. Wheels-trucks-rivet-frame were all seriously rusty and needed complete cleaning. The real disbelief is that I bother to spend the time to rehabilitate somewhat commonplace items.

The trucks were riveted to the steel sub-frame? That sounds odd. I thought that most of those hybrid scout trucks were attached with a brass eyelet, which was often blackened. Not certain about the 6002 gondola though.

Ah ha, that's a lot more than just wheel cleaning.

C W Burfle posted:

The plastic body covers the rivet, which was also too rusty to pivot freely. Wheels-trucks-rivet-frame were all seriously rusty and needed complete cleaning. The real disbelief is that I bother to spend the time to rehabilitate somewhat commonplace items.

The trucks were riveted to the steel sub-frame? That sounds odd. I thought that most of those hybrid scout trucks were attached with a brass eyelet, which was often blackened. Not certain about the 6002 gondola though.

I honestly don't remember exactly what the truck-to-frame fastener was. At the time it was a somewhat ordinary car with ordinary Scout trucks which I got for cheap and it needed a lot of rust clean-up to make it operable. Later I realized the magnetic-coupler Scout trucks on a 6462 body were a non-standard combination (and it appeared original, but maybe I'm lying? maybe I'm senile and forgetful?). Next time I'll try to document every last detail with photos before dis-assembly so my credibility won't be called into question by a Spanish Inquisition.

I didn't think it was out of the realm of possibility that it happened to be a non-standard car. Others have encountered such things. Not that it's in any way valuable, just slightly interesting.

Chuck Sartor posted:

THe 6002 was made only in 1950, and only in 1 set with a 6110 locomotive. Greenburg lists the car as scarce, but no real collector interest. The car had no load.

That set was a 1461S, if I remember correctly. I never considered the set or its contents worth much, it's packed in the box just sitting in my cellar gathering dust.

 Next time I'll try to document every last detail with photos before dis-assembly so my credibility won't be called into question by a Spanish Inquisition.

When an odd-ball car (or any item) turns up, some folks are going to be interested in details such as how the trucks were mounted. I wasn't calling your credibility into question. I wrote that I wasn't positive how the trucks were mounted on a 6002 gondola. I don't have one in my possession right now. I was hoping someone who did have one might comment.

CW, I think my 6462 car originally had the Scout trucks secured with these older metal clips. These are easy to replace but you have to bend the frame tabs to dis-assemble the car to get them out, as I mentioned before, which leaves an indication that the car has been previously worked on. Danged if I could make them frame tabs perfectly straight again.

Correction: my car did not use these, they came along a few years later.

I reattach the trucks to the cars with whatever works well, but on these gondolas there isn't clearance for my preferred machine screws with nylocks IIRC.

Maybe it's possible to remove/swap trucks and re-use the clips but they are easy damaged, usually just replaced for one-shot use. 

C W Burfle posted:

 ....I wrote that I wasn't positive how the trucks were mounted on a 6002 gondola. I don't have one in my possession right now. I was hoping someone who did have one might comment.

C.W., I'll check mine (which came straight from an attic) when I return home Friday afternoon. Will let you know then.

Ace, I always wondered why they ever came up with that tab method for attaching the plastic shell to the frame. Those gondolas have to be about the only postwar car that can't be re-assembled to the same condition as before. Often the bending also chips black paint from the tabs on painted frame varieties.

How were they ever assembled so neatly at the factory in the first place?!!!

Jim

 Danged if I could make them frame tabs perfectly straight again.

I don't know of any way to do it either. I've wondered how Lionel made the cars. Did they mold the car around the assembled sheet metal frame?

I've wondered if they had a fixture/jig that bowed the entire frame (or maybe the plastic shell? ) just enough to slip the tabs in place. It's the only way I can think of that wouldn't bend the tabs themselves. The holes in the tabs must have something to do with it.

Jim

Got back home and here are the photos I promised of my 6002 gondola which is original as far as I can tell.

The trucks are attached by the blackened brass eyelets as C.W. had surmised - same as the mounting method of all other scout trucks we've seen.

The wheels, axles and coupler adapter plate were removed for the photo as ADCX ROB suggested.

The eyelet is hollow and looks the same on the top of the frame as below. This photo is of the top of the frame of a scout boxcar.

Ace,

I believe that those truck mounting clips were introduced by Lionel later than the 1950 production year of this car. Besides being original on some cars, they were a common method used by service stations to re-attach some trucks when they were replaced.

If the truck had the mounting stud, a C-clip was used, but if the truck to be re-attached had just the hole in the bolster (as would be the case for any scout truck), one of those clips was often used. 

Whether your 6462 is original might depend on whether the factory had any new scout trucks left to install at the time when those clips were introduced. I don't believe scout trucks were used in regular production much after 1950.

As far as the clips are concerned, the earliest I've seen them used by the factory is about 1955 on a 6560 crane to attach bar end metal trucks.

That would make a service station the more likely source of scout trucks mounted with clips. But, there is really no way to tell unless other 6462 cars with these features and with a known history surface.

Jim

On the subject of early postwar truck mounting hardware, this 1005 Scout tank car (with steps on frame corners, pre-1950) uses "eyelets", the term used in Lionel Service Manuals. These eyelets appear original, although I have done other work on this car: replacement axles, screws holding tank to frame, and Scout couplers carved down to mate with regular Lionel knuckle couplers.

In about the mid-1950's a "mounting clip" (metal sleeve with collar and barbs) was used to secure metal trucks to metal car frames. Those trucks and frames typically had a plain 5/32" hole without the pivot-stud.

Later plastic-frame postwar trucks used metal eyelets and 5/32" holes. The previous metal mounting clips had sharp edges that could have chewed up the plastic.

I'm sure there are other details and variations, which someone else may wish to elaborate on. Following image shows related info from Lionel Service Manual dated 6-55.

I can't remember for certain what fastener my 6462 gondola had to attach the Scout trucks - probably the "eyelets" but maybe studs. I remember that it was all a rusty mess that I had to dis-assemble to clean up. At the time I didn't realize the Scout trucks were out of place for a 6462 gondola. Individually, they were both commonplace items. According to the Greenberg PW book, it was not unusual for Lionel to use up existing inventories of outdated items in non-standard undocumented applications.

Regarding the difficult-to-disassemble method of attaching 6462 gondola bodies to the original-style metal frames - perhaps the plastic tabs were glued or heat-bonded onto the main body after the body was aligned onto the metal frame. If I acquire a 6462 junker I'll investigate further.

C W Burfle posted:

Lionel started offering the 480 conversion couplers to convert the 1000 series scout cars to magnetic couplers. I wonder how many people have seen those conversion couplers packaged as a pair, two pieces in one envelope. I didn't know such a thing existed until I got one in a lot of stuff.

My first Lionel train set was the ubiquitous Scout set with the unique Scout couplers. 

A couple years...or so...later 'Santa' delivered a Santa Fe diesel freight set...2343's with searchlight car, coal dump car, log dump car, automated boxcar/guy, lighted caboose.  And, of course, these had the really cool knuckle couplers that could be automatically opened.  (All that automation, Warbonnet colors/sounds, ....we were in 'hog heaven'!....and I still have it ALL!)

However, the Scout cars wouldn't mate with the newer cars.  That'll never do!!  So, Dad and I made a trip to our favorite Washington, D.C. Lionel haunt...Superior Lock and Electric on L street N.W....and he bought several packages of the 480 conversion pairs.   Now, whether it was the preferred modus operandi or not, Dad simply swiveled the Scout couplers to the center of the cars and attached the conversion units to the blank ends of the trucks.  So, the cars may look a tad weird, but the history is preserved, so to speak.

All of which leads me to your comment about the packaged conversion pairs, #480.   You've shaken some dust on the very old brain here....I recall having an extra package or two.....somewhere.   Hmmmmmm....  Something else to look for!!! (It never ends!)

KD  

Two comments:

The mounting holes in both the frames and the truck bolsters are larger for the eyelets. If Lionel truck mounting clips or truck mounting rivets are used to re-attach trucks that were mounted with eyelets, the fit will be very sloppy.

Lots of folks must have converted their scout trucks the same way that DKDKRD's family did. I have seen quite a few scout cars with the scout couple turned in, and a conversion couple facing out.

C W Burfle posted:

Two comments:

The mounting holes in both the frames and the truck bolsters are larger for the eyelets. If Lionel truck mounting clips or truck mounting rivets are used to re-attach trucks that were mounted with eyelets, the fit will be very sloppy.

Lots of folks must have converted their scout trucks the same way that DKDKRD's family did. I have seen quite a few scout cars with the scout couple turned in, and a conversion couple facing out.

That was actually the way the factory recommended making the conversion.