all I have to say is
WOW!!!
catnap is right on. I'm not going to "crap" on anyone who feels this way. I asked a question almost two years ago about the MTH placement of the horn on their newly announced PS3 GP30. I pointed out that Lionel had the horn in the right location...why did MTH feel the need to deviate. To me it the MTH model looked real different. Instead of the nice round hood and seamless transition over the top of the locomotive...MTH puts this big horn on top. I have several Chessie books and not one picture of the GP30 showed the hood centerline on top. To me it just looked weird. I ended up buying the Lionel GP30. However, the reaction I see in this thread is similar to what I faced. You would have thought I took someone's kitten and stomped on it. Bottom line, if you spend this kind of money then you should be happy and satisfied with one's purchase. The nice thing is you have two great manufactures to choose. Just for the record, I paid $330 for the newest MTH ES44AC CSX PS3...the works. Headlights are in the right location and the trucks...spot one. Just say'n.
I am in Nicoles camp on this one. I want these trains to be affordable. I can never figure out how some people get so uptight about little details, but can tolerate a moving pilot, a 3rd rail, oversized couplers, and handrails that are too thick. If Lionel does not make what you want--Don't buy it!! I like what they are doing, nothing beats Legacy, and I will buy their products. I think there are a lot of us who feel that way.
If Lionel just made the tooling for the plastic ES44AC, then they should have designed their molds in a modular fashion to just change the location of the headlights. Prior planning prevents **** poor performance.
And, those blind, bobbing power trucks still suck.
Fred
Originally Posted by base11:
If Lionel does not make what you want--Don't buy it!!
...And let them know WHY you aren't buying it in the process. I would tend to think it's counter-productive to remain silent on what one perceives as shortcomings or not meeting expectations whether it's because a prototype detail is omitted or if one doesn't think the shade of red on a re-released Warbonnet F3 doesn't match the original.
If consumers don't demand improvements, no improvements will be made, simple as that.
Normally I would not post to threads like this on the "Hi-Rail, O27, and Traditional 3 Rail O Gauge" forum, because, quite frankly, there is a forum already available for us rivet counters, called the "3 Rail Scale" forum. Quite simply, a lot of us asked for the forum so that we don't have to put up with these types of discussions any more, and I really don't understand why these discussions keep coming up over here. But, since you have asked rather specific questions of interest to a 3 rail scale modeler, I'll answer with my thoughts embedded below in italics.
Originally Posted by N.Q.D.Y.:
After reading this, and many similar threads where some are complaining about the small details not being specific to 'Their' required model, I have to ask a few questions:-
Are these small points so important to you that you would rather go without an engine? It depends on the degree of the detail. As far as this particular model is concerned, I don't have a dog in this fight. I model an appx period of 1950 thru 1953 in three rail. I only model Great Northern and Northern Pacific, as it keeps me from impusle purchases, and helps keep me focused. When it comes to the suppliers that I largely purchase from, 3rd Rail, Atlas, and MTH, I expect to get darn close to what I want. Since I've pretty much accumulated all the trains that I want in three rail O scale, I'm becoming much more discriminating on what I will lay out cash for.
Would you rather pay substantially more for these details to be as you desire them? In one case, I did, only one time. Atlas came out with some outstanding Northern Pacific GP9s. I really didn't want to go any older than GP7s, but these were just too darn good looking to pass up. Bought all three numbers (two powered, and a dummy). Had them converted by Bill Serratelli of Atlas, for the grand total of $125.00 each for fixed pilots, correct full length handrails, and Kadee compatible couplers. I was hoping that by doing so, I could demonstrate to Atlas that this was something worth offering straight from the factory. Alas, no such luck. I will not do this again, but then again, I now have a nice set of geeps, and my desire not to again spend this money at the Atlas store is more likely due to not needing any more geeps (although I would like two in GN) than "boycotting" them for not catering to my 3RS interests. John Korling does have a point though, there is a limited amount of time in many of our lives, and as long as the available money exceeds the available time, we are willing to spend the money to get what we want. Right now, with two twin daughters in university, the available money is less than the available time, so instead of buying something that isn't the way I want it, I'll leave it on the shelf for somebody else. When I'm retired and looking for projects to take on, I probably wouldn't mind fixing some details.
Would you rather that Lionel (And others.) only produce the road names for which the small details are correct? Now if you are talking about the difference in cost between spending less for a Lionel product than a more accurate 3rd Rail product, I'll opt for the 3rd Rail every time. I don't need Legacy sounds, Railsounds 4 with a correct sound chip (which are now available for a lot of locomotives) works just fine for me. For example, I'd rather have a Great Northern O-8 mikado than a Lionel USRA heavy mikado, and I'm fine with paying the difference in price, which is about $400.00 per loco.
Is anything preventing you from purchasing one of these models, and altering the small details to your satisfaction yourself? Time, and motivation. I'm building a large HO railroad in my basement, so I don't care to be fixing headlight locations in O scale. I'll leave the model on the shelf for somebody else, concentrate on the weenie gauge, and if I have time later in life, buy the model off of e-Bay for less money, and then start hacking and slashing. I used to do a lot of this 35-40 years ago with HO brass, and won't spend the time doing it again until my railroad is up and running doing proto-op sessions.
Please bear in mind that the manufacturers are trying to please the majority of modelers, not just you. Many of us are quite happy with the models as they are, or are prepared to customize one to suit our wishes.
And I'm quite happy to leave them on the shelf for you. Whether or not that matters to the various manufacturers is for them to decide. Consider though, one of the reasons that the bulk of my model railroad dollars are spent on HO as opposed to O is because the stuff I want IS on the shelf, either at a hobby shop, through the internet (used brass and older Sunshine Models kits as an example), or through Internet mail order (Tangent Scale Models 6000 gallon 3 dome tanks, Southern Car and Foundry resin kits).
We are all quite happy to run our trains on 3 rail track, so I find it strange that anyone can say 'I'm not buying that! The 3rd rivet on the left is the wrong shape!!'
I'm quite happy to run my trains on 3 rail track due to the fact that I only have access to a 3 rail modular group to run my O scale trains, or at a friend's house (Hot Water) that has a 3 rail home layout. I'd rather be doing my O scale thing with two rails, but I don't know any two railers that let me come over and drink their beer for free, or a modular group that has similar interests to mine.
OK. I've now used one my allowance of rants, so I'll shut-up now.
Why shut up, you have your forum, and you are entitled to your opinion. Why us rivet counters post threads like this posted in a forum that is not for rivet counting is beyond me, especially when we have a forum here that DOES meet our interests. I won't be posting further to this thread, I too used up my allowance of rants.
Are these small points so important to you that you would rather go without an engine? It depends on the degree of the detail. As far as this particular model is concerned, I don't have a dog in this fight. I model an appx period of 1950 thru 1953 in three rail. I only model Great Northern and Northern Pacific, as it keeps me from impusle purchases, and helps keep me focused. When it comes to the suppliers that I largely purchase from, 3rd Rail, Atlas, and MTH, I expect to get darn close to what I want. Since I've pretty much accumulated all the trains that I want in three rail O scale, I'm becoming much more discriminating on what I will lay out cash for.
Would you rather pay substantially more for these details to be as you desire them? In one case, I did, only one time. Atlas came out with some outstanding Northern Pacific GP9s. I really didn't want to go any older than GP7s, but these were just too darn good looking to pass up. Bought all three numbers (two powered, and a dummy). Had them converted by Bill Serratelli of Atlas, for the grand total of $125.00 each for fixed pilots, correct full length handrails, and Kadee compatible couplers. I was hoping that by doing so, I could demonstrate to Atlas that this was something worth offering straight from the factory. Alas, no such luck. I will not do this again, but then again, I now have a nice set of geeps, and my desire not to again spend this money at the Atlas store is more likely due to not needing any more geeps (although I would like two in GN) than "boycotting" them for not catering to my 3RS interests. John Korling does have a point though, there is a limited amount of time in many of our lives, and as long as the available money exceeds the available time, we are willing to spend the money to get what we want. Right now, with two twin daughters in university, the available money is less than the available time, so instead of buying something that isn't the way I want it, I'll leave it on the shelf for somebody else. When I'm retired and looking for projects to take on, I probably wouldn't mind fixing some details.
Would you rather that Lionel (And others.) only produce the road names for which the small details are correct? Now if you are talking about the difference in cost between spending less for a Lionel product than a more accurate 3rd Rail product, I'll opt for the 3rd Rail every time. I don't need Legacy sounds, Railsounds 4 with a correct sound chip (which are now available for a lot of locomotives) works just fine for me. For example, I'd rather have a Great Northern O-8 mikado than a Lionel USRA heavy mikado, and I'm fine with paying the difference in price, which is about $400.00 per loco.
Is anything preventing you from purchasing one of these models, and altering the small details to your satisfaction yourself? Time, and motivation. I'm building a large HO railroad in my basement, so I don't care to be fixing headlight locations in O scale. I'll leave the model on the shelf for somebody else, concentrate on the weenie gauge, and if I have time later in life, buy the model off of e-Bay for less money, and then start hacking and slashing. I used to do a lot of this 35-40 years ago with HO brass, and won't spend the time doing it again until my railroad is up and running doing proto-op sessions.
Please bear in mind that the manufacturers are trying to please the majority of modelers, not just you. Many of us are quite happy with the models as they are, or are prepared to customize one to suit our wishes.
And I'm quite happy to leave them on the shelf for you. Whether or not that matters to the various manufacturers is for them to decide. Consider though, one of the reasons that the bulk of my model railroad dollars are spent on HO as opposed to O is because the stuff I want IS on the shelf, either at a hobby shop, through the internet (used brass and older Sunshine Models kits as an example), or through Internet mail order (Tangent Scale Models 6000 gallon 3 dome tanks, Southern Car and Foundry resin kits). We are all quite happy to run our trains on 3 rail track, so I find it strange that anyone can say 'I'm not buying that! The 3rd rivet on the left is the wrong shape!!'
I'm quite happy to run my trains on 3 rail track due to the fact that I only have access to a 3 rail modular group to run my O scale trains, or at a friend's house (Hot Water) that has a 3 rail home layout. I'd rather be doing my O scale thing with two rails, but I don't know any two railers that let me come over and drink their beer for free, or a modular group that has similar interests to mine.OK. I've now used one my allowance of rants, so I'll shut-up now.
Why shut up, you have your forum, and you are entitled to your opinion. Why us rivet counters post threads like this posted in a forum that is not for rivet counting is beyond me, especially when we have a forum here that DOES meet our interests. I won't be posting further to this thread, I too used up my allowance of rants. 
Well, since you exceeded your allotted number of rants, I guess I will too. 
As before, comments inserted into your post in italics.
As before, comments inserted into your post in italics. Originally Posted by N.Q.D.Y.:
Originally Posted by GEES44ACFAN:
First off with a thread name like "Lionel, Are you going to have the ES44AC headlights in their prototypical location? on the nose!" that probably ensures that particular thread is a complaint thread. I don't see it as small point when the trucks, and or both the head light are wrong especially if Lionel wants to promote them as "Scale, or STD O." I do not have brand loyalty either, if MTH can make it better than I will buy MTH. I also would pay more for these major detail to be correct. Yes I am young, but I am not new to this hobby. My self, my wife, and my children are very big into railroading. I shouldn't have to spend $500.00 ($400 if you pre-order now) on a locomotive then spend even more to make it correct. My post are simply to allow those wondering about these details the information they so desire. I will not purchase these models, and just save my $1,600 plus until someone can make them better. I think this will in fact hurt Lionel sales greatly. 3-rail track has nothing to due with quality of the model either. With companies including the terms "Scale, and STD O" along with their products, then that brings that particular product into a whole new ballgame!
Perhaps I should have started a new thread, rather than post my comments in this one. But there have been so many posts recently where people have been getting so worked up about small details, that I felt the need to speak out. My comments don't just apply to Lionel either. Some of the posts have been about other manufacturers too.
I think sometimes that many forget that these are only model trains. No, I don't think that those who are complaining forget, they have decided that there is a certain accuracy level that has to be met in order to separate with their discretionary dollars.
Our lives do not depend upon them being prototypically correct in every respect.
No, our lives don't depend on it, but each person's decision on what level of detail and accuracy they want to spend is an individual choice. I choose to spend my discretionary dollars on more accurate models. You don't. Neither is right, but how the manufacturer approaches these different tastes does have the ability to impact sales. Whether or not they can cost effectively meet both needs is something that the manufacturer has to analyze as part of their business case.
Perhaps I'm more tolerant than some,
Yes, you are, and that does not make you any more right or wrong than others who are not tolerant in this particular matter
as I buy my trains because I think that they look good and have the features that I like. I don't even care if the rail road in question ever actually possessed that locomotive, coach or freight car. If I like it, then I will add it to my collection. For example, I have an NYC DD-35A, and I'm awaiting delivery of a set of SP RF-16s. In my railway world, all things are possible and nothing is unacceptable.
Works for you, doesn't work for me, up to a point. I don't mind inaccuracies when it comes to rolling stock. I don't sweat details like whether or not a particular railroad had 1939 AAR box car), if the car looks good in a particular livery, I'll buy it. But when it comes to purchasing a DD35A just because it is painted in Great Northern or Northern Pacific, I'll leave it on the shelf.
Life is way too short to get all worked-up about small things. Believe me, I know. Peace and love to all. 
Life is way too short not to sweat the details to the extent that a particular individual feels comfortable with.
Originally Posted by Big Jim:
All of this ado about headlights not being in the right place...where were you when Lionel invented "Greenie-stick-em-a-windows"?
Spending my money at the Golden Gate Depot store.......................................
Maybe the question should be asked, what roads had the headlights between the number boards.
Lionel obviously cut these dies to capitalize on the NS heritage craze.
It seems most roads had headlights in the nose.
Originally Posted by gnnpnut:
Normally I would not post to threads like this on the "Hi-Rail, O27, and Traditional 3 Rail O Gauge" forum, because, quite frankly, there is a forum already available for us rivet counters, called the "3 Rail Scale" forum. Quite simply, a lot of us asked for the forum so that we don't have to put up with these types of discussions any more, and I really don't understand why these discussions keep coming up over here.
Jerry,
I can't speak for anyone else, but know that my 3RS experience was less than ideal after getting a snarky response from OGR management on the 3RS sub-forum regarding my "out of the box" locomotives.
Jim
Originally Posted by John Korling:
...And let them know WHY you aren't buying it in the process. I would tend to think it's counter-productive to remain silent on what one perceives as shortcomings or not meeting expectations whether it's because a prototype detail is omitted or if one doesn't think the shade of red on a re-released Warbonnet F3 doesn't match the original.
If consumers don't demand improvements, no improvements will be made, simple as that.
My personal opinion as well, right on the money!
