Lionel Legacy System/Locomotives Malfunctioning, Not Responding to Remote

Sounds like signal strength issues.  Hard to be specific without more detail about your installation.  Describing your layout size and track configuration would help a bunch.

What I'd recommend as a test is to take a standard 3-wire extension cord and plug it in.  Then just lay it alongside the track and see if the signal improves.

Another simple test is when you have one with a blinking headlight, just hold your hand right over the locomotive and see if you get signal that stops the blinking.

@gunrunnerjohn Thank you for your help. I will be trying those tips soon. My layout is an 8 x 13 layout with Atlas track. The layout consists of two parallel tracks and a siding on one end. The outer track has O-90 and the inner has O-81 curves. The siding has O-72 curves. The straight sections have turnouts between the tracks. Main tracks have #7.5s and the siding has #5s. I have feeder wires roughly every 6' or so from a bus wire under the whole layout, and I have no issues getting signal from the DCS to my MTH locomotives. It's just the Legacy models that are giving me the issues.

Typically, Legacy signal issues are the lack of building ground.  Are you SURE your command base is connected to a properly grounded outlet?  Also, if you're using a power strip, try plugging the command base transformer directly into an outlet.

John, I’m curious. I understand that the extension cord test is probably checking ground plane but what is the hand over the locomotive with the blinking light test for? The reason I ask is that I have the blinking light issue in a couple of small areas in my layout.

Thanks

Rich R

I would also just check the connection between the Legacy base and outside rail / common. Always good to check the basics. Make sure the connection is solid.

@amtrack5899 posted:

John, I’m curious. I understand that the extension cord test is probably checking ground plane but what is the hand over the locomotive with the blinking light test for? The reason I ask is that I have the blinking light issue in a couple of small areas in my layout.

The hand over the engine couples the ground signal to the antenna using your body as a larger antenna.  If that helps, you have localized it to a earth ground signal issue.  That being the case, you know how to address it, run an earth ground wire there.

Is that the same test as running the extension cord next to the track

@amtrack5899 posted:

Is that the same test as running the extension cord next to the track

It's just a "quick" check to see if it makes a difference.  But yes, it's increasing the signal strength the same as the extension cord.

Thank you

Years ago I had the same issue and had ask about it here.

Problem was solved!

How? by turning on Legacy control unit first then adding track power! Never have had the problem again!

Just saying.

Curtis, that's not really the same problem.  His issue is clearly signal strength issues, what you experienced is the engine coming up in conventional mode because the Legacy signal wasn't there when the engine received power.

I believe I found the fix after asking a family member. The antenna was screwed in, but the flathead screw on the end was not fully tightened prior to running trains. This didn't lock the antenna in place or solidify the connection, hence the issues with the signal. Thank you for the help!

@MidwestODR posted:

I believe I found the fix after asking a family member. The antenna was screwed in, but the flathead screw on the end was not fully tightened prior to running trains. This didn't lock the antenna in place or solidify the connection, hence the issues with the signal. Thank you for the help!

That antenna is for the handheld to base communications and doesn't effect the engine signal.  For your initial post, it t's unlikely that was your issue but if it's working that's a good thing.

I might have spoken too soon. Even with the antenna screw head fully engaged, the issue still persists. I'm not sure what to do because there's a lot of play in the antenna. Putting the power strip by the track didn't appear to help because it didn't stop the flickering. Definitely frustrating to think I had a fix and it turn out not to work.

First off, what "flathead antenna screw" are you referring to?  The Legacy command base has no such screw, and the CAB2 remote has no visible antenna.

I'm confused as to what you're working on.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

First off, what "flathead antenna screw" are you referring to?  The Legacy command base has no such screw, and the CAB2 remote has no visible antenna.

I'm confused as to what you're working on.

The base antenna for Cab2 communication is my guess which is why I said that wasn’t the original issue.

That would be my guess too Marty, it's the only antenna I know of that he'd be seeing without taking stuff apart.  However, the screw confuses me, I sure don't have one on any of my Legacy command bases.

@MidwestODR posted:

Putting the power strip by the track didn't appear to help because it didn't stop the flickering. Definitely frustrating to think I had a fix and it turn out not to work.

If the large command base plug is plugged into this power strip.

Power strips have been known to cause signal issues. Some do, some don't.

Try plugging the command base plug directly into the wall outlet. One side of the command signal is transmitted through the ground lug of the base plug and broad cast through the ground wiring in the walls of your train room.

Certain power strips degrade this side of the signal.

There's also the house wiring, if the outlet ground is not properly wired, that could be the whole problem.

The antenna on the command base appears to have something that looks like a screw head at its base where the antenna attaches to the base. The advice I was given was to ensure that flathead was fully tightened when connecting the antenna to solidify the connection. The fix seemed to work for a little while, but now the same problem returned. The house electrical should be up to code as the house is a fairly new build. The only other thing that's coming to mind is that I might not have enough feeders wired. I had enough feeders for running DCS and for conventional operations, but not all feeders I've run are connected to the bus. I'm planning on connecting the rest as soon as I can and see if the issue resolves.

Did we rule out a power strip with surge protection yet?

If you have enough drops for DCS you have enough for Legacy. Did you try both suggestions from gunrunnerjohn?

1. Plug a grounded extension cord into an outlet and lay the cord along side the track. Don't use a power strip for this.

2. Cup your hand over an engine, a few inches above it.

I have tried the second, but the first method I tried with a regular surge protector and not an extension cord. I'll see if I can find one and see if that works.

Do not use a surge protected outlet strip. Plug the base directly into the wall.

@MidwestODR posted:

The antenna on the command base appears to have something that looks like a screw head at its base where the antenna attaches to the base. The advice I was given was to ensure that flathead was fully tightened when connecting the antenna to solidify the connection.

Boy, I've been dealing with the Legacy command bases for a long time, and I truly never noticed the screw slot at the base of the antenna!   I've also never tinkered with it.  It's part of the connector, it actually does come out.

I can say with certainty, this would have nothing to do with the track signal or lack of track signal.

Hey everyone, just a quick update. I haven’t been able to run anything for a little while, but when I ran my Legacy Pacific, everything worked fine for about the first 10 minutes. Then the locomotive stopped with a flickering headlight (no other lights flickering) and wouldn’t respond to the Legacy remote. I still don’t know if it’s on the locomotive side or the Legacy side, but if my memory serves me correctly, putting my hand over the front of the locomotive did not stop the flicker. Turning off and on track power stops the flickering, but the locomotive only responds to Bluetooth control through the LionChief app. With the new Base3 coming out later this year, I’m considering getting one of those to see if the problem is truly the Legacy system or if it’s the locomotive. Both of my Legacy locomotives do the same thing from earlier testing, and while there’s a chance it’s the locomotives both having signal troubles, I don’t want to discount the control system.

Check the basics.  Is the U post on the command base connected to the outside rail?  Do you have a properly grounded outlet with the command base power supply plugged into it?

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

Check the basics.  Is the U post on the command base connected to the outside rail?  Do you have a properly grounded outlet with the command base power supply plugged into it?

"I'm using a Z-1000 transformer hooked up to a TIU with the Legacy unit wired to the output of the TIU as outlined in a YouTube video." per OP.

Ok I have to ask, how old is this Legacy 991 base your using? Have you ever seen it work correctly?

Does the black U post on the base feel loose in any way?

Is the base plugged directly into the wall outlet or via a power strip?

Did you recheck the 1 wire connection to confirm it is solid at both ends?

@Richie C. posted:

"I'm using a Z-1000 transformer hooked up to a TIU with the Legacy unit wired to the output of the TIU as outlined in a YouTube video." per OP.

When you say wired to the output of the TIU, exactly how do you have that connected?  Picture?

Did you try to wire the base directly to the outside rail without the TIU in the mix/on to give it a quick test?

Good morning everyone,

I know it’s been a while since I posted on this thread, but I have some new information that might help the problems that have persisted. Since posting last, I joined an O Scale club and have successfully run all my Legacy locomotives under Legacy control without issues at the club layout. However at home, the issue still persists with my Legacy system that the locomotives will work fine for a little while before they stop and the headlight flickers. Unpowering and repowering the track makes the locomotives automatically start up and not respond to the system whatsoever. I’ve tried multiple suggestions on here, but I think the biggest eye opener was that everything functioned fine at the club (except programming the S1. I suspect something with the wiring). I’m still having Bluetooth issues with one of my locomotives, but Bluetooth overall has been decently stable as long as the track is clean. I think it’s narrowed down to wiring or the base itself, but I strongly believe it’s the latter as no matter what track the legacy base was connected to, the issue persists. I have the new base preordered so I can see if it truly is the base, or if signal interference is coming from somewhere else. Thank you for all the help so far!

@MidwestODR posted:

I think it’s narrowed down to wiring or the base itself, but I strongly believe it’s the latter as no matter what track the legacy base was connected to, the issue persists. I have the new base preordered so I can see if it truly is the base, or if signal interference is coming from somewhere else. Thank you for all the help so far!

Send the Legacy base back to Lionel, they're still repairing them under an extended warranty, but I doubt it'll last beyond the shipment of the BASE3.

@MidwestODR posted:

... however at home, the issue still persists with my Legacy system that the locomotives will work fine for a little while before they stop and the headlight flickers.

I think it’s narrowed down to wiring or the base itself, but I strongly believe it’s the latter as no matter what track the legacy base was connected to, the issue persists. I have the new base preordered so I can see if it truly is the base, or if signal interference is coming from somewhere else. Thank you for all the help so far!

You're likely missing something quite fundamental.  If the headlight is flickering while it's moving it could be dirty track but with TMCC and Legacy, and while it's sitting still, it's more likely that your locomotive isn't getting a good radio signal from the base.

Most often this is due to the power brick (wall wart) not being plugged into a properly grounded outlet.  Your brick must be the one that originally came with the base.  It has a third pin, the ground pin, and must be plugged into a proper 3-pin grounded outlet that accepts the pin (no grounding adapters allowed).

You could also see the same issue if the brick is plugged into a power strip and not the wall, or as John mentioned the base could be bad.

Mike

@Mellow Hudson Mike posted:

You're likely missing something quite fundamental.  If the headlight is flickering while it's moving it could be dirty track but with TMCC and Legacy, and while it's sitting still, it's more likely that your locomotive isn't getting a good radio signal from the base.

Most often this is due to the power brick (wall wart) not being plugged into a properly grounded outlet.  Your brick must be the one that originally came with the base.  It has a third pin, the ground pin, and must be plugged into a proper 3-pin grounded outlet that accepts the pin (no grounding adapters allowed).

You could also see the same issue if the brick is plugged into a power strip and not the wall.

Mike

I use the original power brick plugged into a properly grounded outlet (house was built within the last 5 years or so, so electric should be up to code). I originally had it plugged into a power strip years ago when I first bought the system, but after reading up on similar issues, I have only used the direct wall outlets for powering the base. My plan is to email Lionel, but reply time has been spotty when I’ve emailed before. Can’t hurt to try again though.

Call Lionel, it's way more effective.  I just got a remote repaired for a keypad issue.

Is there an inexpensive tester that you can buy, to determine how well-grounded a particular outlet (or your whole house's wiring) is?

When I bought my house a while ago, the electrician installed a whole-house surge suppressor.  I've never actually tested Legacy at home.  Before I build ANYTHING in the train room that's potentially in the way, I would like to know, say, on a scale from one to ten, what my ground connection is like.

Look for "outlet tester" or "receptacle tester".  Not expensive.  They will tell you if the neutral, hot, and ground are wired correctly (I'm surprised at the number of sites that are not correct - this includes commercial venues).  It will not tell you about the quality of the connection to earth ground but if the third pin is wired correctly, the TMCC signal should propagate OK.

I wanted to give an update. Having tested different things, I figured out the issue was that my Legacy remote needed charging. It isn’t having issues with the system when it had been charging for a little bit. I will say, I’m having a new problem where one of my locomotives is unable to move despite making chuffing noises, so not sure what’s going on there. I’ll have to keep an eye on the Legacy base and see if the problem was just the low charge. Anyone run into the issue of a locomotive not moving? All the others do, but the one doesn’t even run in conventional. Granted it’s my S1 that hasn’t been able to be programmed either, so it probably just needs a good repair.