Lionel says goodbye to transformer controlled train sets

It is the beginning of evolution, MTH has done this for a few years now with the DCS Commander, it was only a time when Lionel would follow with something better.

Hi Stewart and Folks,

 

     What bothers me is that the price of owning and running electric trains is going beyond the reach of many people.  I had a co-worker tell me of her efforts to put a Lionel train under her Christmas tree one year, and when she and her husband went to buy a set, they were overwhelmed at the price!!!  She told me that trains are now just for wealthily old men, which I tried to take issue with.  But when I went to find something for her, she was correct about the high prices.  So Lion Chief is a good deal, but how much more affordable could it be with just a transformer and no fancy electronics onboard?   Some people don't want much beyond whistle and a little smoke, if that.

 

Take care, Joe.

Isn't that a little different? It is my understanding all MTH locomotives will run in conventional, some in conventional and DCS, others in conventional, DCS, and DCC.

 

Do these new Lionel locomotives run in conventional? If the power pack is fixed 18 volts seems only a special remote can control them as some are not TMCC or Legacy capable.

Only LionChief Plus will run conventional.  Thus far, sets don't have the "plus" feature.

 

Rusty

Change is hard and sometimes unpleasant.  The old saying goes "the only person who likes change is a wet baby".  I do think lionel is missing the mark however.  If you are going to move away from transformer controlled trains then lets go all in.  How about on board batteries that eliminate the need for wiring entirely?  Think of it, derailments no longer fry expensive electronics, no need to crawl around under the table looking for the elusive short or loose connection, simple train movement.  The market could include post war trains, offer a kit that provides the power for those post war or conventional locos, I bet some folks convert their favorites.

 

I wsn't at the Lionel pitch, so don't know precisely what was said.  But don't panic, Stewart.  I have Lionel older than yours (75 years) that I got new.  They still run, using MTH DCS remote.  They also run under the Christmas tree, using a brick and separate controller.  So your restoration effort will not be in vain.

 

I agree as to train prices.  It may be true that "trains are now just for wealthily old men" or their grandchildren.  In 1950, Lionel reduced the price of its top-of-the-line Berkshire from$42.50 to $37.50 (my father bought me one that still runs, although I've converted it to DCS), and Lionel added a new top-of-the line, a Hudson at $50.00.

Thanks Rusty, did not realize that. ALMOST bought a Polar Express set for a friends child, didn't realize needed to see the "Plus" and after a quick search it seems there are no Lion Chief Plus Polar Express sets from Lionel. OGR forum with another save! 

Everything changes in life, except perhaps for the way we make babies. The way I see it, Lionel's corporate mission is to produce more complex electronic dependent model trains for a very select and narrow audience. Everything else is migrating towards this technology but the main question is how expensive can you make an item that will join the ranks of the throw away devices out there? I just purchased a built in the USA 32" wide screen television by Element Electronics of South Carolina. It was $168. In five to ten years that set might break and be discarded. If it cost $2000, with the same life expectancy, I would not have purchased it. Point is that modern electronic items are disposables. I cannot justify spending more than a few hundred on a disposable.

I am perhaps looked at as the caveman of the hobby, and what is now taking over the Lionel market has escaped me, but keeping the layout simple and affordable is has produced no problems. However, as LionChief develops further I must say that the simplicity, affordability and convenience of operation is getting more attractive.

I was saying this when I said Lionel is trying to force lionchief and lionchief+ down our throats but most could not see it yes you now can operate up to 3 trains on one special control you have to go out and buy separately. 

My guess is all conventional motorized units will cease by Lionel near future. and soon unless your willing to pay the big bucks you lower line command control will be gone as it is now being replaced with lionchief. your basically going to have 2 choices Lionchief or Vision line before it is done. Hope it can survive seems lot are okay with lion chief so guess it will do okay but I foresee the regular legacy engine disapearing unless you goto visionline with the next 5 to 10 years.

Just my thoughts on it.   

Lionechief is a good deal because Lionel wants it to be to get you to buy it instead to force it on the market at present I would bet there profit margin on those sets are low compare to other sets/items ( theres not your resellers/dealers) so they can flood the market with them and more or less force the switch over

 

Before someone says I'm anti Lionchief let me say I see a market for it but not the market lionel is forcing it is a perfect starter market or for the one that has no room or wnats a set for around the christmas tree but not that plastic battery set. It is a great idea but its just being over marketed and being forced where a lot don't want it really they want what there use to conventional and regular tmcc/legacy which to me looks like there trying to get rid of and go backwards in progress as that is what this system is compare to the old tmcc let alone legacy

Bill, note what Bobby said about MTH.  All of their current O gauge locos will run in conventional mode with a conventional transformer, or a brick+controller.  I have heard nothing of any intent to eliminate this feature.  And most Rail-King locos are reasonably priced, if one compares the present cost of living to loco prices 65 years ago (see my post above).

It was my understanding that Lionchief Plus was created so you could run them in conventional if you wished. You make it sound like Lionchief Plus will be eliminated and only Lionchief engines will be available.

 

Pete

I know that but I was talking about Lionel which this thread originally was about 

 

Just a matter of time before most Lionel sets are LionChief Plus which will operate conventionally and using the supplied remote.  Makes sense to keep the expensive and heavy to ship transformer out of starter sets, in particular.  There is no need for a beginner to have a transformer, and more experienced hobbyists will, if they like, buy a separate sale item.  Inexpensive, light fixed voltage power supplies make sense in the current age.

 

A major difference between LionChief and LionChief Plus and MTH sets is that the former come ready to go with command control in the loco, though it requires the remote provided (or the separate sale multiple loco remote which is planned for next year).  The MTH set has a loco with full command control (PS3/DCS),  but does not supply the command control remote that is needed,  and requires an additional investment of $300 or so. 

 

Different philosophies and costs. You can buy a LionChief basic set for $150 street price or a more elaborate set for $50-100 more.  The MTH set is going to cost you more like $250-300 street price.  These are big differences for people just getting into the hobby or want a train for around the tree, menorah or Festivus pole.

BobbyD, If you're talking O gauge then you're correct, However Lionel has their American Flyer FlyerChief rtr Polar Express set with FlyerChief having features identical to LionChief Plus including diecast loco and all metal tender, but in S gauge. While the msrp is $399.00 the set isreadily available discounted at $299.

no but there not being sold in sets so again you have to go out and buy them separately I have sets that came with TMCC and Legacy engines which both will run in conventional and command my problem with lionchief is your restricted to ( if you go out and buy the special controller) only able to run 3 trains I can do 99 in tmcc not sure on legacy as don't have it but it's my next step when I build a layout again

 

The whole hobby all scales have been moving toward command control for many years now.  I am surprised that conventional engines still exist in the numbers that they do.  I love MTH!  To have the capability to run 2 rail or 3 rail and conventional or command.

Guessed it long before the official announcement.  The intro of LC and LC+ was the hint.

 

Bruce

As a big fan of RTR sets, I can see that the feature I like most about LC+ (the option to run remotely or conventionally) will be available on RTR sets in the not too distant future.  It makes sense not to write off us old guys while introducing the future of model railroading to youngsters.

About time! You don't need a transformer in every set...

Hope the savings will be passed on to the consumer?

I do not think that MTH has also abandoned conventional mode as their starter sets still come with either a 75w or 100w power pak with controller, and you can still purchase these items separately.

 

JoeG

I just checked and 50 dollars in 1950 is the same as $497.38 today. Interesting.

This isn't that big a deal--people just getting into the hobby with a starter set will likely prefer/expect a remote.  Hopefully all starter sets will go to LC+, in which case I can't really see any disadvantages at all.

 

Personally, I could never justify going command when I have an arsenal of engines that are conventional runners, and I certainly have enough spare CW-80's laying around to last two lifetimes. Still, nearly every decision announced over the last 3-4 years has been a movement away from my preferences.  Not complaining, just kind of disappointed as I can see myself drifting out of the hobby again in a few years.

"Without Lionel addressing how they plan to support Lionchief in the future (10-20 year time frame), will Lionchief locomotives become paperweights as an operator waits for replacement parts? Will Lionchief command parts even be available in 20 years as new technology comes forth? (I'll save the discussion for multiple remotes and the inability to run Lionchief locomotives in consists for another time.)"

 

Perhaps it will be reassuring to you to know that LionChief and LionChief Plus are based upon parts and technology that are present in several thousand fold larger numbers of devices than parts and technology used for Legacy and DCS?  These are off the shelf parts that are, for one thing, used in the radio control car, boat and airplane hobby.  So they are more likely to still be around 10-20 years from now than parts for TMCC/PS2/Legacy/DCS etc.  It's also dirt cheap compared with these train specific radio frequency equipment, which is one reason why some LionChief sets can be sold so inexpensively.

I think that this is a good move for Lionel.  We wouldn't buy a TV without a remote.  Why would we buy a train without one?  In fact, I can't think of any electronic entertainment device currently on the market that doesn't come with a remote - radio, TV, DVD player, etc.

 

I find that running a LionChief engine is much easier at our train shows than running conventional.

 

Transformers will always be available for those who want them.  There are hundreds available at every train show that I attend.

 

NH Joe

 

 

Actually I'm surprised more people don't listen to these TCA presentation videos, as well as interviews and articles with the train company CEO's. Many questions that get asked here all the time have already been answered by the train company reps themselves.

1) Where are you and your co-worker looking and 2) what constitutes an "overwhelming" price?

 

I just checked Charles Ro (because it's the first thing that came to mind) and there are a half-dozen starter sets listed between $149.99 and $199.99.  Is this overwhelming?  Is it too much?

 

Don't parents routinely spend that much on a Wii or xBox without blinking?

 

Several years ago, someone said it pretty well on another forum:

Parents go out to buy a Lionel train set.

 

They get to the store and see a starter set for $249.99.

 

They scream "That's outrageous!"

 

Then they hop in their $50,000 Lincoln Navigator and drive home.

 

In all seriousness: How much is too much for a starter set?  I think $150-200 is pretty reasonable ... and a heck of a nice Christmas gift for some boy or girl to get.

 

Steven J. Serenska

 

 

Related to this, I realize many like the new features included on the modern command trains, but are they actually more fun than pulling levers on a ZW? I don't get the impression they are.

I think those who don't have any hands on experience with LionChief are over worrying this situation.  If you have a command layout, LionChief works fine on the same track and loops.  If you have a conventional layout, and you are operating postwar or similar locos, you have 8-12 volts on the track at all times and the LionChief loco will operate just fine at those voltages using the included remote.  So you can control a conventional loco and one or more LionChief locos on the same loop at the same time, independently.  Try doing that with conventional only if you like, but be prepared for crashes .  The lack of consisting is not a big deal to me.  If you have another humanoid, have them control the other loco(s), it should work fine.  If you really, really need consisting, invest in Legacy and other command locos.  As it is, consisting is pretty complex and few people use it.  You cannot easily consist Legacy and TMCC locos in some instances, much less Legacy and PS2/3 locos, so this isn't an issue unique to LionChief locos.

I agree with this.

 

Transformers will always be around and available. Forum members are constantly selling ZWs, 1033s LWs, TWs from decades ago! And they still work! And of course the more recent models will also be available on the secondary market. Reminds of the angst about tinplate track. It's always going to be available.

When started in the hobby,most items available were used PW. There will be plenty of used stuff cheap for us conventional operators plus Williams. 

 

I would buy a TV without a remote or a tuner section for that matter. Mainly it is used as a monitor for other devices. 

 

Dale H

I hear you. I love my PW ZW (rebuilt and works great) and pulling the levers never gets old for me.  I've also jumped into the Lion Chief Plus pool and the main reason is I can get some decent locos with features I want at a nice price AND can run them with the remote or conventionally.

 

Best of both worlds.

Somebody will probably come out with a blue tooth dock with two big, honkin' handles on it to simulate the ZW experience...

 

Rusty

A brilliant move for Lionel's bottom line, however, it basically turns the starter sets into a dead end. While a CW80 would support the move to command control, the Lionchief wall wart doesnt strike me as having enough juice to run a full feature command control loco. So now, anyone who wants to upgrade, is the proud owner of an entry level paperweight. The only thing that carries out of the starter set phase is the track. They get to sell you a new engine, a new transformer, and a new control system. 

 

Hi Steven,

 

They were looking for more than just the elements of a starter set and, if I remember correctly, I couldn't find what they needed for under $300.  For them, that was a deal breaker.

 

Please take a look at the price of a fastrack switch!

 

Take care, Joe.

 

 

Most REAL trains operate independently with on board power. RC planes, boats, helicopters and (gasp) drones all have on board (battery) power. Why not trains? They used to have wind-up springs for power. Keep the electronics safe from shorts in the track power and make remote control model train travel more interesting on interconnected loops by making them independently powered as well. I would miss certain aspects of the old days, but it could be interesting. 

Those lamenting the loss of conventional only trains due to increased costs must have forgotten about the Conventional A5 0-4-0 s which had a list price of $450.00 a few years ago. Thats for an engine with no cars, track, or transformer. Is there a Lionchief Plus engine that has a higher list price?

 

Pete

No. Good point.

 

The new LC+ FT units are ~$430 (list) but that's for AA units. All the other LC+ offerings to date have been below that.

Just for comparison, Xbox One prices are hovering around $349.  They might go a little lower as we move on towards Christmas.

George