Lionel says goodbye to transformer controlled train sets

I wonder which one of these will still be around and user serviceable in 30-50 years?

 

 

Or these...

 

 

 

 

 

Jerry

"They'll take my ZW away from me when they pry it from my cold head hands!"

You could say that about a conventional train set in general. I still think MTH was smart to make the starter sets DCS ready.  It makes the starter set still useful after you build a layout with Command Control.  It seems like in Lionel's line up their is a big jump from Lionchief+ to Legacy.  Surprised Lionel does not have any sub $400 Legacy Locomotives. 

 

Great move,long overdue.

This is something I, for the life of me, do not understand. Why are we still using transformers and track power etc...? I remember the first guy to fly an all electric RC plane in our club, that was 1984. 

 

I believe that LC is a step in the right direction, a good step, but not far enough. We need to get the power off the rails and inside the stock. We have the room for awesome battery capacities, the technology and for some of us, the desire. What we lack is manufacturer support.

 

In my world it would be LiPo battery power and WiFi control all the way. It would all be run by Arduino or similar because any macaroon can program one. Imagine, having control of an entire layout, every piece of track, every switch, every light, every accessory for just a few dollars per. 

 

Maybe it the thirty years of robotics coming out of me lol...

 

Ted

Joe:

 

I'm not trying to pick a fight but you're scratching at a nerve that's somewhat sensitive with me.  Please don't take any of what follows personally; it's addressed to everyone.  Also, this will likely be my last post on the topic as I think it would be more fun to jaw about this over a cup of coffee or a beer at York some day anyway. 

To use your example, a Fastrack switch costs about $70.  Using the excellent Bureau of Labor Statistics Consumer Price Index calculator (i.e., it adjusts for inflation), that item would translate to about $8 in 1955 dollars.  Since O22 switches sold for about $20 dollars per pair in the 50s, the price of switches is comparable, if not lower.

 

If the kids in question have an xBox or Wii, the parents have already broken the $300 single-toy threshold.  If the parents are trying to build a railroad empire for less than $300, they've got champagne tastes on a beer budget.  If they're thinking that trains should cost what they did when they were kids (and many do), then they need to play with that CPI calculator for a little while.

 

When I was a kid, the happiest day of my life was when my single large oval of track and my single scout starter set came down from the attic to be set up around the tree.  That happiest day was tied with every day that I got to play with it until it was put away, usually around Feb 1.  Christmas after Christmas,  over the first 9 years of my life, I was given extra track, some extra cars, and even a new 230 Alco diesel.  The day I made two concentric loops (still with no switches) and ran two trains at once in opposite directions, I thought my head would explode.

Trying to give a kid a train empire from the git-go is a non-starter for many and I don't blame your friends for balking at the price.  However, somewhere along the line, all of us have lost the basic concept that someone buys the child a serviceable starter set at a very young age and at a reasonably price, and that starter set gets added to over the years -- track, switches, cars, accessories, etc. -- until the child/children have an empire.

In the above, "all of us" includes parents AND Lionel.  The manufacturers should view the sale of that modest starter set as an annuity that comes back to them in the form of additional purchases over the next 10 years until the kid either sticks with trains for good or moves on to something else.  It's a perfect scenario for participation by aunts, uncles, grandparents and friends.  It saddens me greatly that ALL of Lionel's marketing is not set up to encourage this to happen.

 

Sorry this went on so long, but it just crushes me every time I hear that an adult didn't buy a kid a train set because they thought it was too expensive.

 

SJS

 

Li Po Battery could be a problem if not handled correctly.

Please read the attached link, just cut and paste.

 

http://www.tjinguytech.com/cha...ow-tos/lipo-problems

 

I have a bunch of old conventional trains my dad gave me that I enjoy running from time to time.   I operate them using my DCS TIU on Variable 1.  I supply my power using a brick.  It's easy.  I can switch between variable and fixed with the click of a button.   I will admit that I'm still using a transformer to power my accessories.  At some point I hope to turn them through my TIU as well.  

 

I'd imagine there are companies like Bachmann that will continue to make conventional locomotives as long as people are purchasing their merchandise.  

Thanks for the link but not needed. Been there, done that, got the t shirt. Been using LiPo since there has been LiPo. Sure there are accidents but how many fires have been caused by transformers or track wiring?

In our circle of friends I'm well known as "the Train Guy",  or "Uncle Conductor"- every year around the Holidays I'll set up trains in our family room and we'll invite friends with kids to come over. I've already given one kid with the train bug a Lionel PE set for his birthday, so I know the joy it can bring a young child- his parents knew he loved trains too, but like many parents they refused to pay $200+ for a Lionel starter set. Another couple we know has a 7-year old boy who just had a birthday and is a big train lover, so I'm thinking he will get a Lionel starter set soon too. My wife and I went round and round arguing about the cost of LionChief starter sets, spending $300 on a train set when Property tax is due in December, etc. I already decided that boy is getting his first Lionel set from me. I know his father will NOT buy it, despite having at least $5-10k in Comic book superhero figures and models, but I don't care- I refuse to let the next generation of O gauge model train lovers fade away.

As far as the future of train control and transformers go, IMO transformers and remotes won't go away, but radio-controlled trains will become an option too. I use Lithium-Ion battery powered tools all day at work- I'm sure that same technology will find its way into O gauge trains, allowing us to run them indoors and outside with no track power needed- just a remote, a couple of spare "fuel tanks", and a charger to to put juice in them.

 

Geno

 

Hello 027Ted, this was just a FYI as I have been in the RC hobby for quite some time. Just want to make sure that the folks will take precautions on using Li Po's. Glad that you are aware of problems and address them correctly. At some of the RC model boat events events that I attend, I see folks charging the batteries in old ammo cans. I just powered mine with live steam and use alkaline batteries for the receiver.

By the way I did leave a small transformer on back in the 60's and it did overheat or the insulation on the wingdings let go, no fire but nasty smell and smoke. Just made it a point to turn everything off when I m done.

 

I agree, most parents today won't bat an eye at a $300-$400 WII or XBox system but they see a $200 train as way too expensive for the kids. I guess it was the same back in the day when trains were the big ticket item, the gotta have toy. Mom and dad knew it was expensive but we're going to get junior one this Christmas somehow and like the game systems dad saw it as something he could play with too so that also figured into it. I know when I gave my grandson his first trains it was a full up 2 train, 2 level set up that is way beyond most parents ability to pay for or even build from the get go. It took me almost a year to build it and I already had alot of the things he got but it was still an expensive undertaking (I spent at least $125 on rattle can paints to repaint the Plasticville and some of the accessories). Granted to be able to do this is probably something mainly those of us in the hobby can do and not something a first time buyer could do but I also think it's a bit short sighted of Lionel to kill transformer sets. Not everything has to be some high tech piece of whatever. Would a remote system be nice? Sure but make it easy across the manufacturers to use like the old transformers were, a Lionel transformer could run Marx and American Flyer equipment and vice versa, there was no need to flip this switch or setup for that engine or adjust some setting to make it work or didn't involve me having to cobble something together to make them all play nice together.

I did play around with the set up at MTHs booth at York, it was kind of neat but not really something I want to get and use. I like my hands on the throttle train running, it connects me with the train like no touch screen, keypad, hand held remote thingy can, a remote for the TV? Great! Remote for my trains? No thanks!

 

Jerry

 

"So now, anyone who wants to upgrade, is the proud owner of an entry level paperweight. The only thing that carries out of the starter set phase is the track. They get to sell you a new engine, a new transformer, and a new control system. "

 

Not clear how you came to this conclusion. 

 

A LionChief loco and its remote will operate well on any future layout you can conceive of building. Conventional, command or a combination. If it's a conventional layout, you will either need to use the transformer you already own, or buy a power source, such as a CW80, ZW-L, Z4000, etc.  If it's a command layout, you don't need a transformer, you can use an inexpensive and robust Powerhouse to supply electrons to your future command TMCC and Legacy locos which will run beautifully alongside your LionChief loco(s). 

 

The only thing that might be not particularly useful is the 10 dollar wallwart from the starter set, although you could use that on a separate loop or trolley track. The same would be true of any starter set transformer that isn't at least 60-100 watts.  A CW80 probably adds 50-75 dollars minimum to the cost of a starter set and is totally unnecessary for the starter set.  The track, the loco, the rolling stock and the remote are all completely, seamlessly usable on a future complex conventional or command layout.

Let me add one more piece of Lionel history trivia. Post War O gauge sets did not come with a transformer. They didn't come with wall warts either, wonder why, and no other means to run the train in the box. Mom and Dad had to buy the transformer separately.

The title of this thread is misleading. Other than the first generation Lionchief sets all 3 rail sets can be run with a transformer or DC power packs in the case a few sets from the '80s.

 

Pete

"Landsteiner, MTH starter sets DOES come with a remote control (which I'll call DCS lite). It does all of the basic commands that the full blown DCS command system does. Basically the same commands that are in the free DCS WiFi app that you can download on Google apps store for your smartphone or tablet."

 

It has a remote control.  But it is, I believe, an inexpensive and quirky infrared device inferior to the LionChief and LionChief Plus remotes which are radio frequency and digital. 

 

But my main point is this.  The MTH starter set has command ready locos, but you cannot use them in command mode without springing for $300 for DCS.  So independent control of locos on a layout is not possible.  You buy two sets, you cannot control those two locos on a layout independently without blocks, etc.  So your total investment to independently control a RailKing starter set loco and a second RailKing loco in command mode is set + 2nd loco + DCS, or somewhere north of $800. 

 

With LionChief, each loco and remote is command control and you don't need anything else to control a second LionChief or LionChief Plus loco in command mode.  So you buy one starter set for $150-250 and a second LionChief or LionChief Plus loco for $100-250 and you've a command control layout with two independent functional command remotes and locos for $250-500.  Well maybe you need a transformer for $100 too.  But that leaves you with $200-450 for additional track, rolling stock or buildings.  I think Lionel's technology and marketing plan for the beginner is without peer in the industry, obviously .  It's cost effective, highly functional and flexible.  No real extras needed to achieve command control. Inexpensive.

BUT...

 

The O27 starter sets did and after all, isn't that what most folks back then would buy first for their kids?

 

Even old A. C. Gilbert included a transformer in most if not all sets:

Rusty

Honestly, I can see how Lionchief would be a great way to get new people into the hobby, since handheld things are what this generation knows. Your remote goes bad? Hobby shop either orders you a new remote, or you buy one of the programmable ones.

 

That being said, I still like my conventional operation. I think Lionel should come out with a kit to put conventional control into Lionchief engines (maybe a $40 DIY upgrade kit), for us that have been in the hobby for a long time, enjoy conventional operation, but can't afford $800+ engines.

It's all about expectations.  People don't expect to pay $250 for a train set, but they are OK with $50K for a Lincoln Navigator or $300 for a Wii because they know what these items cost beforehand.  I think this is true for anything. 

 

And then there are the people who are trying to sell used trains for $500 because they are 'rare and valuable', while the people who are familiar with the current market and condition values recognize that the offered $500 train set is really a $50 set.  We've all seen this situation.

 

Dale

0 transformers + 0 O Gauge track = 0 customers. I forgot, we still have Menard's. They are going to make a ton of "O" Gauge track. Thank you Menard's'. Menard's, you might as well start thinking about making "O" Gauge train sets. Train sets that come with a engine with either a whistle or horn, a oval of "O" gauge track and a 100 watt transformer.

 

If it wasn't for used post war trains selling on ebay reasonably I wouldn't be in this hobby either. New lionel is just to expensive to justify for a family of four and one income. I am blessed to have the second hand conventional trains of the past. I have a couple that smoke and finally acquired a whistle tender. That is enough options for me to keep me happy. Ho, n scale have moved away from conventional also with all the DCC engines being produced at 3 times the cost if not more from their original cost when produced without the DCC boards. Some people are just happy with basics in watching a train go around a loop of track. Too many other options for people out their plus with all of lifes demands for your money I think Lionel will be shooting themselves in the foot getting away from the inexpensive starter sets with just the basics.

 

Just my 2 cents coming from a hobbyist on a shoe string budget also. I guess I will just stay a bottom feeder on ebay buying inexpensive common post war trains. Hey it makes me happy!

My thoughts are goodluck to that circle L boyz thinkin. We shall see in a year or two if that works. Seems like the mfgs ate forcing the remote concept on everyone so mre Legacy and/ or dcs sets can be sold along with getting everyone on board for new technology that arrives every two decades and phasing out the old technology.

Dammit, whaddya mean I can't buy a car with a carburator anymore!  Forcing me to buy "Fuel Injection"!  It'll be the end of the car companies, thats for sure.  How am I gonna drive my car if I don't have that choke knob to play with on a cold morning!  They'll never last, you won't be able to get parts.  I've had it, I'll never buy another new car ever again. I remember when I could get a Pinto for under $2000.  Everythings too expensive now . . .

 

Wake me up should anyone come up with an argument that differs in any significant way from the first time someone brought a bronze blade into ye olde flint knife shop.

They have no heartburn dropping 500$ on a new iPhone every year or 400$ on a new playstation every christmas.

 

While at the same time, the kids these days have the attention span of a squirrel and require activities that use intense focus to keep them going.

 

To bring discussion back in line, I've got to say that I really dont like the whole "convert to DC" thing. Legacy engines do not like DC and as ranted about in one of my other posts, I can see someone blowing up a legacy engine by accident. They need to keep them AC power bricks, not DC.

I can  buy RC cars, not pro grade, but nice for less than $100. Lots of good starter stuff for about half that. See lots of G gauge battery trains for the same kind of money. And some even are RC too. If I were looking for a new  starter train set for a kid, that's the way I'd go.

Me personally, I buy cool old stuff that needs a cool old transformer because I like being hands on when it comes to my trains.  Remotes are for not having to get my fat butt out of the recliner to turn on the TV!!  LOL

Lots of old Lionels, AFs and Marxists out there to play with-let the contest begin.

Maybe another manufacturer will step in and fill this niche.  Perhaps Menards. They have made great inroads with rolling stock.  Tubular track is coming. The next logical step, especially with this announcement from Lionel, may be train sets. 

Lionel's own website does not call LC command control.  It is radio control.  Lets not confused the capabilities.  It like saying a Chevy Corvette ZR-1 is the same as a Volt, because they both are Chevy and use a key fob to start.

 

You can do much more with Legacy or DCS.

 

Lionel made their first Radio Controlled Remote back in the 90s.  It was the CAB-1 with a Power Master.  You could not control 3 trains independently on the same track, but you could control 10 trains on separate tracks independently with one remote.

 

I agree with some of the other posters this is all about cost control.  Trying to control cost to increase profit.  No reason they could not give a TMCC lite controller in the box to control a TMCC engine until you got a Command set. 

Ok. Enjoy your remote control and phone apps.

 

I'll be in my corner, playing with the bright flashy clattery old tin if you need me.

 

In all reality, it's exactly what you make of it. The trains are bound to get stuffed full of better technologies, same as they where when the transition from analog to digital control was made. Natural progression etc etc.

 

Doesn't mean I want it. Some of my stuff still has springs in it. Crazy, hey?

Actually, Lionel made their first RC set right after WW II. it was neat but a bust. As an operator of pre-war and post war trains using a transformer, I think the Lion Chief concept for a kid today is the best.

Will they still produce transformers for separate sale?  Doesn't make much of a difference if they do not put Lionchief Plus in every engine to allow for conventional operation.  At least the CW-80 could run accessories.  I can say that I did NOT make two purchases this year because the product I wanted was LC and not LC+ so I was unable to use the product with my existing layout.  That's lost revenue for Lionel and the LHS I was going to buy them from.  

 

I am not thrilled about the death of the transformer RTR sets.  It would be nice if they kept just one scout set on the roster.  If I was to give a RTR set as a gift, I would want to give a transformer set and not a LC set.  When you are a kid there is just something solid and special about a heavy transformer.  It makes the trains seem more real and gives them gravity, like you have been given a responsibility and it's something that you have to take seriously.  

 

As time goes by, my taste in trains is changing.  I am only interested in buying sets anymore, mostly postwar.  The exception would be a CC set with a pullmor motor.  I will buy from Williams if it's an EZ Streets product but otherwise I am all Lionel.

Next up: Lionel announces the end of 3-rail track.  OGR forumites say "YAAAAAY!"

 

LC will run on any layout.

Saying that LC or LC + is only radio control not command is word play. Like saying a Chevy Volt isn't a car because it is electric . Make no mistake about it, LC and LC+ are command control. 

 

Command control for the last 20 years in three rail trains (and DCC HO and N) means unique and independent control of a locomotive regardless of what other locomotives are on the layout, and, also,  regardless of the exact voltage on the track. 

 

You get precisely that with a LionChief or LionChief Plus loco at original purchase, because they come with a command control remote.  You do not currently get that with any other manufacturer's set locos or separate sale command locos. You do not get that with Legacy, where you need to purchase a command base and command remote of some sort.  With MTH you need purchase DCS to control your PS3 starter set loco. With Atlas or 3rd Rail you need, as with Legacy Lionel locos, to purchase TMCC or Legacy.  With Williams, you need to first make the loco command control .

 

The cab-1 and Powermaster cost $200 when they came out 20 years ago.  Legacy and DCS cost $300 or so, plus the cost of the Naproxen for the headaches you get with one of them.  The three loco remote will cost less than $50 for LionChief and LionChief Plus.  I believe this is progress and choice.  Some of us are trying to help others understand that these new approaches to command control are compatible with any layout you currently have or plan.  It is not restrictive in any way, except that it's best that you don't lose the remote or place a screwdriver in the 120 volt outlet.

 

For those willing to take the time and energy to understand the new approach to simple and inexpensive command control, it is reasonably straightforward.  To those threatened by something new, there is always hope for education and acceptance of reality in the future.

 

Lionel's words, not mine.  Please don't start the name calling/character attack, unless your going to go full disclosure on who you are.  I can't remember any positive comments from you on any thing other than LC.  That seems odd? 

 

Yes, MTH has several remote styles over the years, from an IR control of track power and offsets to the Commander which gives most of the controls for a single engine.

 

I do get it.  LC as a system allows a single engine tied to its remote to operate with other engines of many different natures.  Others systems allow many engines controlled by one remote, but maybe not always independently.

 

Full command control engines such as Legacy/TMCC and DCS can do much more.  In many cases the price of those full command engines is the same or less than LC+.  Especially on the secondary market.

 

But yes a one time purchase of the command system required.  Any where from $99 to $299, unless we want to use your previously used street price terms. In which case much less.  My $99 MSRP CAB-1 Command Base is over 15 years old.  Runs my whole layout.  What's that less than $7 a year.

 

Anyone who is really into trains and an operating layout is not going to confine themselves to only LC+ engines.  Because it is not a control system or Command Control system as the manufactures seem to have defined it. 

 

I imagine the AC transformers have gone, because the cost to make them has gone way to high, and they are no longer economically feasible to put in a set an still make your profit margin.  Chinese Pay scale is up, they are charging more to manufacture.  Heard that over and over again at York.  G

"I can't remember any positive comments from you on any thing other than LC.  That seems odd? "

 

Who died and appointed you board monitor? No one cares what you think about how odd my posts are.  You really should stick to the topic if at all possible instead of attacking other posters' credibility.

 

My last three loco purchases have been LionChief Plus. I've had extensive experience with three rail trains as a consumer, including TMCC and DCS. I like children and novices, who are a main consumer group for sets and LC/LC +. There's a lot of misunderstanding about the capabilities of the system, including folks who just feel a need to put this stuff down for whatever reason.  I prefer for people to deal with reality rather than misinformation, fear, uncertainty and doubt.

 

It's completely irrelevant to discuss LionChief starter sets in the same paragraph as  command equipment on the secondary market.  Discussing it from the standpoint of the 5% or fewer of set buyers who are going to build a complex command control layout is also irrelevant. 

 

This discussion is about sets.  Almost everyone knows that no manufacturer makes a set that includes completely functional command control from the outset, no additional purchases needed,  with the exception of LionChief from Lionel.  That's the relevant piece of information.

 

It works, it's new, it's inexpensive compared with Legacy and DCS and it makes sense for the vast majority of consumers. You buy multiple sets or multiple locos and you have multiple command control locos. No additional purchases needed. These locos are compatible with any layout you have or might plan.  No other 3 rail set or loco product can make that claim.  Not too shabby .

The loss of the transformer has it good and bad points. The thing that still amazes me. The introduction of a new control system not compatible with your best remote! The Company gets so much flack. Their solution, is to design another handheld, that will run 3 engines for that same system. To put it simply. Designing a system that does not allow your best remote to run everything from top to bottom is one $#!@$@#$ stupid decision. So, everyone is up in arms about a transformer?

"one $#!@$@#$ stupid decision."

 

Perhaps so, but Lionel is apparently crying all the way to the bank .