Lionel says goodbye to transformer controlled train sets

The answer for me (a set collector) is to buy a little of both.

There are still plenty of Lionel transformer sets on the market--many at great prices. As I add sets, it will first be these, since Lionel won't be making them anymore.

But that doesn't mean I don't like Lionchief. Lionchief sets are a good product. I have four and enjoy using them--they're fun! They fit in well with my conventional transformers, and while I can't run them and conventional trains on the same track at the same time, that doesn't matter to me. I run in independent loops so I can dedicate loops to conventional and loops to Lionchief. Will they hold up? Perhaps not as well as my 60 year old trains. But I've had to have those repaired, too. So, everything is relative.

And then there's MTH. As others have said, if you like transformer capability it's really very simple--MTH starter sets. What a great product. 

Finally, as to affordability:  I just bought the Lionchief Peanuts Halloween set off Amazon for $129--shipped. An amazing play value in that set. Mario on his website is offering a few MTH sets at under $300. I don't think one can argue that the hobby has no room at the bottom--if there wasn't any room, I wouldn't be in it!  I don't buy $500+ engines (nothing wrong with that, but it's not for me), I buy <$400 starter sets, and many I get way under that price. For someone starting out, or train collectors like me, there are many, many affordable options.

Theres a reason why mpc and post war engines are loosing there value..

Since the issue was raised: Are engines with back-level electronics holding their value? How about items with current electronics?

Regardless, I don't think its a good idea to purchase toy trains with the expectation of high resale value.

I do not understand why this thread keeps going.

lionel has not said goodbye to the transformer with lionchief plus!

As long as these engines have the option to work conventionally from a transformer and don't get too pricey I'm OK with it. If I was just starting out maybe it wouldn't matter.

And, this is the problem. With the LionChief sets, if you lose the remote(in any fashion - gone/broken/no batteries, etc.), you don't run trains. No transformer will help you out w/o surgery on the loco. There is a universal(up to three LC/LC+ trains) remote on the way.

ADCX Rob posted:

And, this is the problem. With the LionChief sets, if you lose the remote(in any fashion - gone/broken/no batteries, etc.), you don't run trains. No transformer will help you out w/o surgery on the loco. There is a universal(up to three LC/LC+ trains) remote on the way.

Simple fix...DON'T lose the remote.  Wouldn't that be a problem with DCS or TMCC/Legacy as well?

How do you lose a remote anyway?  I've never lost any of the remotes to the 3 TVs I have.  Come to think of it, never lost my car keys either and the only time I thought I lost my civil service badge it was actually in my hip pocket the whole time.

If a child loses the remote I wouldn't think they'd get another chance to lose it again.  Maybe they need to raise the age limit to 21 (and a diploma).

Too many "what ifs" flying around the room.

Bob Delbridge posted:

ADCX Rob posted:

And, this is the problem. With the LionChief sets, if you lose the remote(in any fashion - gone/broken/no batteries, etc.), you don't run trains. No transformer will help you out w/o surgery on the loco. There is a universal(up to three LC/LC+ trains) remote on the way.

Simple fix...DON'T lose the remote.  Wouldn't that be a problem with DCS or TMCC/Legacy as well?

No, because DCS and TMCC/Legacy (and LionChief +) don't require the use of a remote exclusively to be able to run them (they can still be run via conventional control using variable voltage).

How do you lose a remote anyway?  I've never lost any of the remotes to the 3 TVs I have.  Come to think of it, never lost my car keys either and the only time I thought I lost my civil service badge it was actually in my hip pocket the whole time.

Just because you never lost a remote doesn't mean it doesn't happen to others.  Sometimes it's easy to forget where you last put it, and use cases where children are involved the chances of a remote getting lost is higher.  And you're also not factoring in another form of loss (damage).

If a child loses the remote I wouldn't think they'd get another chance to lose it again.  Maybe they need to raise the age limit to 21 (and a diploma).

Revoking a child's privileges to use a remote doesn't get the remote back though.  Never let them use a remote again?  A bit draconian, isn't it?

Too many "what ifs" flying around the room.

"What ifs," regardless of quantity, happens, and those need to be factored into product development.  How much or how little you factor in "what ifs" when designing a product can make all the difference in consumer confidence, not just acceptance.

I'm sad I was away from the forum when this post was first going on, as I would have been sure to get involved and aggravate lots of people.  

As to the current replies, Sure, you're in trouble if you lose the remote, but no more trouble than you are if you lose the transformer or the engine.  

I posted a thread a while back inspired by the supposed concern many have shown for this 'lost remote' problem, asking folks to report any issues they have had with any of the remotes for various command systems.  there were Zero reports of lost remotes.  There were plenty of broken DCS thumb wheels, a few DOA legacy remotes, and a few one off, odd issues here or there with TMCC remotes such as broken antennas.  As to LionCheif/+  there was exactly one reported problem, with an original thomas set that uses an entirely different remote, electronics package, and even an ancient 27Mhz analog radio signal.  

Now sure, the folks here on the forum do not represent the vast majority of LionChief owners, but I just don't think a lost remote is actually a real problem.  This supposed problem has also been eliminated with the universal remote soon to be made available.  

JGL

Bob Delbridge posted:

Simple fix...DON'T lose the remote.

if you lose the remote(in any fashion - gone/broken/no batteries, etc., etc., etc., etc.), you don't run trains.

JohnGaltLine posted:

I'm sad I was away from the forum when this post was first going on, as I would have been sure to get involved and aggravate lots of people.  

As to the current replies, Sure, you're in trouble if you lose the remote, but no more trouble than you are if you lose the transformer or the engine.  

I posted a thread a while back inspired by the supposed concern many have shown for this 'lost remote' problem, asking folks to report any issues they have had with any of the remotes for various command systems.  there were Zero reports of lost remotes.  There were plenty of broken DCS thumb wheels, a few DOA legacy remotes, and a few one off, odd issues here or there with TMCC remotes such as broken antennas.  As to LionCheif/+  there was exactly one reported problem, with an original thomas set that uses an entirely different remote, electronics package, and even an ancient 27Mhz analog radio signal.  

Now sure, the folks here on the forum do not represent the vast majority of LionChief owners, but I just don't think a lost remote is actually a real problem.  This supposed problem has also been eliminated with the universal remote soon to be made available.  

JGL

"As to the current replies, Sure, you're in trouble if you lose the remote, but no more trouble than you are if you lose the transformer or the engine."

Well, yes, it is more trouble, actually. You can't repair the remote(I dare you to try), you can't go to the LHS & buy a remote, and you can't use the remote from your other train or borrow a remote without disabling the other set(which by the way needs to have an identical engine).

You can still put together an inexpensive starter set if you don't mind not having a set box.  Get a Williams, MTH Railking or Lionel LC/LC+ and get all else new in the box on eBay (you can get the engines new in the box on the bay too).  You can get all sorts of mint MPC cars really cheap, and if there's one thing MPC did it was to make those cars look great.

There's also ten million late model conventional engines available.  Conventional control will always be available.  Ten million old transformers that never go bad if not abused.  Get a brick and run it through a rheostat.  There will always be a way.

Alan

JohnGaltLine posted:

As to the current replies, Sure, you're in trouble if you lose the remote, but no more trouble than you are if you lose the transformer or the engine.  

That's kind of like saying you're in no more trouble than you are if you lose the TV.  Which of the two are more likely to get lost/misplaced?

I predict that some day, not too far in the future, Lionel will once again say "hello" to transformer controlled train sets.

Pete

Texas Pete posted:

I predict that some day, not too far in the future, Lionel will once again say "hello" to transformer controlled train sets.

Pete

I agree.  

I have also observed, since I teach middle school and have three grown children, that kids like retro things. So-called "analog" devices are cool: records, wrist watches, etc. Kids are thrifting for old things. I think that might apply to trains as well, both new and used.  LC is great because it meets kids where they are--hand held, electronic, video game world. But old style is also "in."

C W Burfle posted:

When I was a kid the big thing in music was the cassette tape. Then came compact disc and digital recording. People threw out their vinyl albums in favor of the new technology.

I stopped by a Barnes and Noble over the weekend. I was surprised to see that not only did they have an expanded selection of records, they even had several different turntables for sale.

Yep, records and turntables are making a big comeback.

JohnGaltLine posted:

 

I posted a thread a while back inspired by the supposed concern many have shown for this 'lost remote' problem, asking folks to report any issues they have had with any of the remotes for various command systems.  there were Zero reports of lost remotes.  There were plenty of broken DCS thumb wheels, a few DOA legacy remotes, and a few one off, odd issues here or there with TMCC remotes such as broken antennas.  As to LionCheif/+  there was exactly one reported problem, with an original thomas set that uses an entirely different remote, electronics package, and even an ancient 27Mhz analog radio signal.  

I would count broken remotes (to where they're functionally inoperative) as a loss.

ADCX Rob posted:

JohnGaltLine posted:

As to the current replies, Sure, you're in trouble if you lose the remote, but no more trouble than you are if you lose the transformer or the engine.

Well, yes, it is more trouble, actually. You can't repair the remote(I dare you to try), you can't go to the LHS & buy a remote, and you can't use the remote from your other train or borrow a remote without disabling the other set(which by the way needs to have an identical engine).

 

Quite honestly the quote doesn't do much good if you pick and choose which snippets to use.  Please use the whole thing, in which I address the concern over the availably of replacement remotes and that lionel has already addressed this with the universal remote.  

As to the remote being just another part of the set, my point is that any train set is useless without all the pieces, if that is the only one you have.  I provided information suggesting that lost remotes has not been reported to be a problem for folks that are involved in the hobby, you know, the sort of folks that would also have another transformer laying around, as opposed to normal consumers of starter sets that would not. 

As for repairing the remote, it is no different than repairing any other surface mount circuit board... then again, repairing it would necessitate that it could be damaged in the first place.  Other than submerging it in water I can't see a way to do so.  I imagen with the exception of a few purpose made water-proof cell phones, any other electronic device will give you the same result when submerged.  

I guess I don't see what all the hype is about with this 'remotes are the devil' mind set.   

JGL

I hate to use such a strong words for the new control system. It would be the items that go in sanitation trucks.

The response of the remote in the starter sets to engine movement is dismal. It is actually terrible. Although, the loss of a transformer is not a big issue for me in the starter sets.  The lack of continuity through the product line is laughable. Seriously, basically three different control systems! There is no reason when the system was redesigned that a across the board compatibility could have been built in via design. Isn't that suppose to be the wonder of the micro processor and programmability of things? Add on top of this the quality factor. Yes, there are products,  I rate high quality. But, as a example: Using machine screws in plastic on fast track switches to hold them together.....How about some pems. So, I can actually repair the products made in China! That I can replace the cheapest micro switch, I've ever seen on a electronic device more then once. Being able to retighten the screws. The lack of parts for the starter sets! Geez. Therefore, I do agree with the one poster. It will eventually create a issue for a iconic company.

John Korling posted:

JohnGaltLine posted:

 

I posted a thread a while back inspired by the supposed concern many have shown for this 'lost remote' problem, asking folks to report any issues they have had with any of the remotes for various command systems.  there were Zero reports of lost remotes.  There were plenty of broken DCS thumb wheels, a few DOA legacy remotes, and a few one off, odd issues here or there with TMCC remotes such as broken antennas.  As to LionCheif/+  there was exactly one reported problem, with an original thomas set that uses an entirely different remote, electronics package, and even an ancient 27Mhz analog radio signal.  

I would count broken remotes (to where they're functionally inoperative) as a loss.

Still Zero, in the small sample size I had to go on.  as stated, the original thomas remote is the only "lionChief" failure reported, and that remote, as I said, is an entirely different design than every other LC product.  

Bob Delbridge posted:

ADCX Rob posted:

And, this is the problem. With the LionChief sets, if you lose the remote(in any fashion - gone/broken/no batteries, etc.), you don't run trains. No transformer will help you out w/o surgery on the loco. There is a universal(up to three LC/LC+ trains) remote on the way.

Simple fix...DON'T lose the remote.  Wouldn't that be a problem with DCS or TMCC/Legacy as well?

How do you lose a remote anyway?  I've never lost any of the remotes to the 3 TVs I have.  Come to think of it, never lost my car keys either and the only time I thought I lost my civil service badge it was actually in my hip pocket the whole time.

If a child loses the remote I wouldn't think they'd get another chance to lose it again.  Maybe they need to raise the age limit to 21 (and a diploma).

Too many "what ifs" flying around the room.

Regardless , if the remote is lost or not....Even with the new multi - remote. One can only run three trains at a time.  They pulled a expensive component from the sets...Raised the "LOOK' of quality of the sets. Credit given a plus for the hobby. But, the new designed system lags terribly from control movement to train movement....I feel like the transmission is slipping in my car, ****, they are kidding! They should have relegated the system to a couple of those G gauge one Christmas classics. I mean look at the legacy base. There is less parts in that thing then some of the 5 dollar transistor radio's I bought as a kid! ..why didn't they build on that platform...or even if they needed to redesign for monetary savings...create something that you actually felt like you were running a train..something with upward mobility with one remote for all.

I still don't get it....

This is how I manage all my controllers.  Check out my YT Video.

Most electronic stuff today has some sort of remote.  Garage openers.  Cars have "clicker fobs".  But Lionel has to see the fact you are going to need, as Toolman said:  MORE POWER, if you want to run more engines, lights, et. al.  They are going to have to sell some sort of serious brick if one is going to power everything off taps to FasTrac.

Dominic Mazoch posted:

Most electronic stuff today has some sort of remote.  Garage openers.  Cars have "clicker fobs".  But Lionel has to see the fact you are going to need, as Toolman said:  MORE POWER, if you want to run more engines, lights, et. al.  They are going to have to sell some sort of serious brick if one is going to power everything off taps to FasTrac.

John, I think my garage door opener has a better feel of quality!

Just think about this little diddle. Lionel develops this new system - lionchief. It was only after the reaction of the train community that they decided to create the new remote. I mean does it take brains that someone that may buy 2 starter sets and set them up year round might like the ease of one remote....Isn't that something they should have envisioned!

shawn posted:

Just think about this little diddle. Lionel develops this new system - lionchief. It was only after the reaction of the train community that they decided to create the new remote. I mean does it take brains that someone that may buy 2 starter sets and set them up year round might like the ease of one remote....Isn't that something they should have envisioned!

L is coming up with a LC clicker which you can run 3 engines,

"The world of transformer controlled train sets by Lionel is a thing of the past..."

I had to go back and listen to the video again, that statement is said at approx 7:20 into the video.

"transformer controlled train sets"

He didn't say ALL transformers were going to be a thing of the past, just those IN TRAIN SETS.

Dominic Mazoch posted:

shawn posted:

Just think about this little diddle. Lionel develops this new system - lionchief. It was only after the reaction of the train community that they decided to create the new remote. I mean does it take brains that someone that may buy 2 starter sets and set them up year round might like the ease of one remote....Isn't that something they should have envisioned!

L is coming up with a LC clicker which you can run 3 engines,

yes, that's my point. After getting in my view humiliated by the train community. The current remotes feel cheap, the colors they pick for the plastic looks cheap in some cases. I noticed the switch on the new control tower. (Plug and Play) the color..the build. It looks like cheap Chinese crap! It is a perception...although, I don't like the lion chief system. (lag in motion) They did get it right in one case. Almost all of the engines have the "perception" of quality.

"

They did, but waited until the system was a success and there was demand for the multiple loco remote.  At $50 MSRP it's likely to be a hit and a bargain.  Rome wasn't built in a day,

to coin a phrase.  I bought one LionChief Plus loco a few years ago, and then three more this year.  I also ordered a multi-loco remote.  Don't see the problem.  It's a lot cheaper to buy multiple remotes than it is to have multiple transformers or multiple command control handhelds for Legacy or DCS.   Clearly the issue of "losing the remote" or "damaging the remote" becomes less of problem for LionChief and LionChief plus than it is for Legacy or DCS.  In other words, it's not a problem in the least once this remote is available.

Speaking for myself, I enjoy running conventional trains, but I also like LionChief Plus. I don't see myself buying Legacy or TMCC because of the price. The Legacy remote alone is more than I want to spend. Even the CAB1L remote and base is more than I want to spend and you still have to buy a engine. With LionChief Plus it's all there you don't have to buy anything else to run it, but at this point even that is more than I want to spend. At the same time I like running my conventional engines a lot. If they drop transformers then I'll just stick with train shows if I need anything. I already have a PW-ZW and KW, CW-80 and 40 so I'm not worried about buying a transformer. At this point I'm sure I will never buy a new product from any of the companies again..........well maybe if I need more track and some accessories.  Maybe I'll find something I want at York or some of the local train shows here. Change is inevitable, but as far as trains go, I don't have to change.

When TMCC came out, there was going to be one RI train set which had "TMCC lLite".  The engine would have TMCC features, except you could not change it's TMCC engine number.  And it wo uld have some sort of Cab0.5 remote which controlled that engine only.  This was in one of the mid 1990's catalogs, the one which introduced the Foghorn Leghorn chicken car.  I say,  Isay, the Foghorn car was made, the RI set not.

Now, I have seen a LC GP7, and a steamer.  The GP7 did not impress me in looks.  Steamers did look good, the the valve gear did not seem to look as sturdy as the 1950's items.

Maybe the next edition will be a way to run LC via a smart phone.

LionChief and LionChief+ is a step up from Lionel Beginner Sets.

I still feel MTH Rail King is a better bang for your buck.

When Lionel releases F3 Diesels and Scale Hudson's, and something to eliminate all those remotes including the new 3-way remote, then and only then will I take an interest.

Fortunately, I have almost everything I want except a LIRR C-420.

So when Lionel releases that, if ever....that will be my first LionChiefX purchase.

DennyM posted:

Speaking for myself, I enjoy running conventional trains, but I also like LionChief Plus. 

At the same time I like running my conventional engines a lot. If they drop transformers then I'll just stick with train shows if I need anything. I already have a PW-ZW and KW, CW-80 and 40 so I'm not worried about buying a transformer. At this point I'm sure I will never buy a new product from any of the companies.

This is spot on and sums it up nicely for me (conventional operator of mostly PW trains who also enjoys the LC+ offerings).

It's all about choices and I think there's something out there for all.

John Korling posted:

Bob Delbridge posted:

ADCX Rob posted:

And, this is the problem. With the LionChief sets, if you lose the remote(in any fashion - gone/broken/no batteries, etc.), you don't run trains. No transformer will help you out w/o surgery on the loco. There is a universal(up to three LC/LC+ trains) remote on the way.

Simple fix...DON'T lose the remote.  Wouldn't that be a problem with DCS or TMCC/Legacy as well?

No, because DCS and TMCC/Legacy (and LionChief +) don't require the use of a remote exclusively to be able to run them (they can still be run via conventional control using variable voltage).

How do you lose a remote anyway?  I've never lost any of the remotes to the 3 TVs I have.  Come to think of it, never lost my car keys either and the only time I thought I lost my civil service badge it was actually in my hip pocket the whole time.

Just because you never lost a remote doesn't mean it doesn't happen to others.  Sometimes it's easy to forget where you last put it, and use cases where children are involved the chances of a remote getting lost is higher.  And you're also not factoring in another form of loss (damage).

If a child loses the remote I wouldn't think they'd get another chance to lose it again.  Maybe they need to raise the age limit to 21 (and a diploma).

Revoking a child's privileges to use a remote doesn't get the remote back though.  Never let them use a remote again?  A bit draconian, isn't it?

Too many "what ifs" flying around the room.

"What ifs," regardless of quantity, happens, and those need to be factored into product development.  How much or how little you factor in "what ifs" when designing a product can make all the difference in consumer confidence, not just acceptance.

 

I don't find myself agreeing with John very often,

but what he said!

As a side note, I've never heard of anyone loosing a ZW. 

Jerry

baltimoretrainworks posted:

I don't find myself agreeing with John very often,

but what he said!

It's okay to sometimes agree to agree, Jerry. 

Losing a ZW?  not likely, however losing a tiny starter set transformer?  sure.  a few years back I picked up a little HO starter set at a garage sale in my neighborhood.  Opened the box, and there inside was a little lionel 40W or so transformer from a starter set... right next to the dc transformer that came with the HO set.  the guy selling the items  told me he'd already sold the lionel set... without the transformer because it had been "lost".  

JGL

I tried asking the question "how do you lose a remote" in my house once.  Only once, never again.  It ranked right up there with "how did you lose the house keys, cell phone, your glasses, the cat"?  Some questions are just not raised.  

If the demand for transformer sets is there, somebody will fill that hole....Menards?  There are hunters out there chasing deer with black powder caplocks, and they are using new production muzzle loaders because there is a demand that somebody fills.  Of course, I don't know how retro many people will go....there are guys on here who collect and happily run wind-ups, but I guess not enough to have brought new production key-winds into the market.  Supply and demand....as for available train sets without Rolls-Royce prices, are there not cheap HO starter sets?  Maybe people are fleeing to those....?  HO remotes are compatible across all brands of trains.

JohnGaltLine posted:

Losing a ZW?  not likely, however losing a tiny starter set transformer?  sure.  a few years back I picked up a little HO starter set at a garage sale in my neighborhood.  Opened the box, and there inside was a little lionel 40W or so transformer from a starter set... right next to the dc transformer that came with the HO set.  the guy selling the items  told me he'd already sold the lionel set... without the transformer because it had been "lost".  

JGL

Knock on wood I haven't lost any LC+ remotes yet...but here's a truth.  If you happen to lose it and then find it, I guarantee it will be found in the last place you look...it always is in the last place you look because once you find it you stop looking.   ��

This has been a funny read, talking about going down golpher holes.  Whether a set has a transformer or remote is now all based on which is easier to loose, and the examples are hilarious.

Meet the right significant other and you will be amazed at what you lose.  Coffee machine filter, stereo remote, tv remote, key fob on key chain, and anything else in the wrong place for 24hrs.  LOL.

To me the issue is about a Train Layout and how you power it and operate it.  To manufactures, they add price point and cost in the equation.  Plain and simple.  G