Low to Moderately Priced Legacy Steamers Absent in New Catalog

ATSF Doug,

     I hear ya Doug and was a might surprised that Lionel did not have any new Legacy Steam Engines at a more reasonble cost.  I will probably ride down to Wheeling at the end of the month and pick up my new Legacy Shay, Patrick did give me a heck of a good price on it, he does treat the OGR members very nicely.  I do not know if he has any Shay Engines left or not, the Shay is a big time Steam logging engine, maybe it might be something you are interested in acquiring, Patricks price for one is more than fair, and I like it better than any of the newest Legacy steam engines, except for the M1 maybe.  I would like to have the Pa M1 to run a double header on my Masonic Train, the Pa M1 was to be the special order engine for the original Weaver Masonic train, the Legacy Pa M1 would be just the perfect engine to double head my Masonic train, a might steep at over $1,300 however.  I was also looking forward to the Legacy Camelback, to run with my Shay logging engine, too bad Lionel decided not to make it, a real Bummer!

PCRR/Dave

 

Doug,

    i don't know how long you have been in the hobby but Lionel has never been cheap. in addition to that hasn't anyone ever told you....."Never pay list for anything". 

 

    If you do want a Legacy engine go with the pre-buy pricing Charlie Nassau's store is advertising savings of 25%. Maybe this catalog did not have any smaller steamers but the next one may. I got my Legacy PRR Atlantic for around $600. They can be found on eBay along with 10 Wheelers. 

 

    Another way of saving a few bucks is go to the sell/trade board and look at some of the TMCC steamers. They can be upgraded to 4 chuff per rev and better smoke for around $100. There is a N&W Class A on the board for $600 and some now. You can find may TMCC steamers on eBay too. Look for a guy named Alex M who does upgrades on the forum And email hIm for a quote.

 

      I guess what I am trying to say is there is more than one way to get good Lionel engine on a budget. Oh Legacy does run TMCC great.

 

JohnB

I too think the price of the steamers are a bit north of what I am comfortable spending. It seems to me that the prices are increasing beyond any inflation we are experincing.

 

One of my favorite engines is the NYC ten wheeler, #6-11005, I think. Paid about $600 for it on eBay. An excellent locomotive.

 

I do not understand the MSRP logic, and would be happy if someone could explain it. None of us are morons, thinking we are getting such a gear deal, some percentage off the MSRP, as though the trains were selling for that price, it is all made up.

 

i think Willams is the most clear example of this M SRP fantasy.

 

I paid $725 for a new Pensy K4 with whistle steam, now a similar model is almost twice that?

 

Fred

JohnB,

    What Doug has to understand is that legacy is Lionels top dog right now and the engines are going to cost some serious money, myself I do not want to purchase a used engine, especially off e-bay or have to have something upgraded to own a Legacy engine.  In the past Lionel has always had a few lesser expensive engines mixed in with their most advanced technology, I also thought the Camelback was going to be that Legacy engine.  Ofcourse you are absolutely correct about never purchasing the listed price, especially in our train hobby.

PCRR/Dave

Was thinking the same thing here about their prices. Although I don't buy steamers, I think there would be many more folks that would purchase them in the $400-$700 range than in the $1300-$2700 price range?  Sure glad I'm diesels only.

 

Seems like the rolling stock is really headed north as well. Hope MTH doesn't follow their example. As Pine Creek RR also said above, I don't like purchasing used either. Haven't had very good luck in that department.

I also noticed the growing gap in product line offerings:  the Legacy fabulous locos are going for pretty steep money, while Lionel is now also pushing down in the low end with their new LionChief cheapo sets (4 wheels per boxcar).   There seems to be an opening in the middle.

 

I can well imagine that most folks would not see the LionChief PLus Hudsons and Pacifics (compressed scale) as filling this space at the bottom range ($400 plus MSRP).

 

I expect we will eventually either see some Legacy locos fill this mid-range or perhaps higher grade LionChiefPlus --- depending on which one looks like the most profitable.

 

Still, IMO, this was a great catalog release, with a lot of cool trains, and some neat technologies being developed.   Obviously Lionel is turning a nice profit, because all this cool stuff takes big $$ invested up front.   Good for Lionel, and good times ahead for us.

I like small steam w/Legacy…the smaller the better.  That pretty much leaves me out in this round.  No problem though because I already have more trains than I need or deserve.  

 

For a long time I proclaimed that I would not pay more than around $500 for an O gauge locomotive.  Shot that to heck within the last year (or less) when I purchased three Shays, a Heisler, and two Climax locomotives, all of which were considerably north of $500.

Apparently you missed this scale k4 from 2002  TMCC k4

 

$725 was what you paid for an MSRP of $899

 

Comparing the M1a to a k4 is not fair either, the M1 is alot more loco and tender. The M1 can be had for around $1100, about the same as the $1289 MSRP legacy M1b from 2008. I think I paid even more for my M1B because I bought one of the last ones. 

 

At the end of the day, what you actually pay for most of the locomotives is pretty much the same. Some recent reruns have been signifigantly less and offer more features i.e the k4 and the EM1.

 

It seems everyone screams about the price but doesn't consider the actual selling price, or remember what the same loco cost a number of years ago. Then theres always the S-3, "deal of the century".

 

Most rolling stock goes for drastically less than MSRP too.  Department stores still make money when they sell a $30 t-shirt for $10

 

Trains may have gone up a couple hundred dollars in 10 or 12 years, other things like automobiles, have doubled. Lionels original 700e was every bit as expensive (if not more) in 1937 as the VL hudson is by todays standards.

 

This really isn't my forte, wheres David, our resident O guage market analyst

Beside the price issue with small locomotives, some of us do not have O-72 layouts so we have no need for the large (expensive) locomotives. During the steam era the lowly 2-8-0 was the most common followed by the 2-8-2 "light". On the passenger side it was 4-4-2s and 4-6-2 all of which can be made as "small" locomotives.  It looks like Lionel is missing a large market here.

I'm pretty sure there are dealers out there with some smaller Legacy steamers for a good price. I purchased a NYC 10 Wheeler a little over a year ago from Nicholas Smith for a little over $550. It was not on his web site, but a phone call revealed its availability.

 

Pine Creek Railroad, I understand what you're saying.  But it can't be too hard for Lionel to make locos like this, they've done it before in the TMCC era.  Really I'm asking if others will contact Lionel about this.  I've already sent my email, and if they get enough emails, they'll have to make it (it seems that they're listening to customers more now with the return of whistle steam and the heavy mikado).

 

I think they should have made the LionChief+ steamers Legacy.

 

Art

Ditto this. Price aside, I am restricted to O42 curves.  I was hoping for some small Legacy steam like a re-release of the Harriman 2-8-0s.

 

You might be right about the LionChief engines not filling the gap for people who like TMCC/Legacy. Lionel is heavily marketing the LionChief Plus engines now. It is going to be interesting to see how the market responds.

 

You are probably right about the semi-scale engines not filling the gap for people on this forum, or at least the 100 or so people who probably do about 90% of the posting. To be fair, quite a few if not most of the people who run scale equipment probably won't be interested in semi-scale engines.

 

But, I don't think you can correctly assume that people who buy Lionel trains aren't interested in quality semi-scale engines. The OGR Forum is just a small microcosm of the train hobby. I think there are quite a few people who still like the traditional size trains. I don't have any factual information to back this up, but it seemed like the TMCC semi-scale locomotives were fairly reasonably priced and fairly popular.

"Now, I need to be a millionaire to buy anything to run with the handheld."

 

There are lots of Legacy diesels available in the range of $300-400 street price.  Pretty much the same price as you pay for MTH Premier PS3 diesels.  Not a heck of lot more dough than Williams by Bachmann is offering their new scale diesels for, yet with no state of the art command and sounds.  There are Legacy steamers from previous years still available in the same price range as those from MTH with PS3 on dealer's shelves.  Not clear to me how Mike Wolf taking over Lionel would have provided anyone with better or much less expensive products.   Monopolies are not good for pricing .

 

Personally I think the range of products and prices in the various Lionel catalogs is pretty impressive for a cottage industry.  In particular, Lionel is doing more than all the rest of the industry put together to attract beginners to the hobby in the lower cost arena of sets and now heading into command control "light" through Lion Chief Plus.  They cannot address everyone's interests every year, but the breadth of their product line is pretty impressive given the shrinking market. 

We are talking about steamers.

 

Art 

I know what you mean I was looking today at doing a preorder of the chessie steam lionchief plus engine. price is $315.00 but in talking to the gentleman over the phone it's cheaper and better to upgrade my old chessie than to buy a new one. the remote from what he said is non descript meaning control isn't as smooth as with legacy or even tmcc. there pulling power is probably much less than my chessie. and I can upgrade for about $250.00 and that is with full maintenance on it also brushes and such. so instead of a new train purchase i'm doing an upgrade. and the most expensive engine I have bought was $300.00 with 5 kids and a grand daughter 1100 for a engine is out of my relm. I am looking at used old K-line tmcc big boys so that I can run on my layout max curve 036 and be able to have the nice big steamer that I want without pulling a loan to buy an engine.

 

"We are talking about steamers."

 

Understood, my comment was in relation to the remark that you had to be a millionaire to afford a Legacy locomotive.  Diesels are locomotives.  I realize there are people who never buy diesels. However steamers produced last year or the year before are still available in many cases for more moderate prices.  This is one catalog, and when you've seen one catalog, you've seen one catalog.

Yes, steamers. But, to have a lionmaster with many different handhelds is a joke. Does Lionel think Mr. Christmas buyer is going tp spend 300.00 on a engine?. The whole lionmaster line is a waste. They are not gaining buyers at this price level. They are losing them. What so tough in making a cheaper engine with legacy...

"They are not gaining buyers at this price level. They are losing them."

 

Since the Lion Chief Plus line isn't even on the shelves yet, I think it's premature to assess whether it's a sales success or not.  But I'll bet it's going to be a terrific success and attract people who don't have and/or cannot afford the scale/high end/Legacy models, but want something affordable beyond the beginner's set.

I'm mildly interested in possibly purchasing something in the Lion Chief Plus line, but am hoping to see them in person (and some live demos?) at York next month.

 

Could go a long way to getting me off the fence.

 

 

Good luck holding your 10 remotes in your hand at the same time. Going from one remote to many is a step forward?

I think that Lionel feels there is enough of product out there(lower priced Legacy units) for not to introduce more. They seem to be helping out their dealers by clearing out some old stock. Give a year or so and they will be back to producing more lower priced Legacy engines. This year its either $1200+ for Legacy or go to Lionchief, which is almost an insult to Legacy operators. In the long run some advance features will trickle down to moderate engines.

You know this how?   Did Lionel open their books to you?

 

So this ONE catalog is mostly high priced stuff.  As others have mentioned there's lots of moderately priced stuff out there with all the bells and whistles (no pun).

 

 

Please, accept this as a friendly and probably relatable observation by many on the forum.  I grew up, and then got into trains, at a later age with the cliche "champagne taste, and beer budget".  I started with a few low end starter sets (both Lionel and MTH), and bought an occasional car or two.  I would see the new catalogs and wish.  But, at that time my "beer budget" controlled my purchases, despite my "champagne taste".   Eventually, I was able to buy a TMCC locomotive.  This all started about 20+ years ago for me, so I am probably a relative youngster to many on the forum.  Now retired, my taste has stayed the same (champagne) and my budget has fortunately risen a bit from the "beer" to "wine" level, not quite champagne.  But, over the years, I have slowly been able to acquire a nice collection of engines and rolling stock.  I have Lionel, MTH, Williams, Weaver, Sunset, and RMT.  I still have every locomotive, rolling stock, passenger car and accessory I ever bought, and still enjoy them, from my first starter set to my 3rd rail Greenbrier.  I look at the new Lionel catalog, and I still have "champagne" taste.  But, after 42 years of working, and now having a "wine" budget, it seems my "champagne" taste still challenges my new budget.  I have no problem with the pricing in the catalog.  It is what it is, and has always been that way.   

I think the pricing in the new Lionel catalog is reasonable.  Lionel, and the market, seems headed toward prices in the high-end (Vision, Legacy) type locos of $1,500 to $3,000.  The V BB at $2700 list is getting close to the high end.  $1300 Legacy locos aren't far from it at the low end.  

 

Maybe this is not desirable - I'd love lower prices, too, but its reasonable given everything.  As I see it, this is what most people on this forum have been asking for.  When it comes to the majority opinion whenever a new loco or catalog has come out in the past, I see four themes emerge here all the time

 

- Why can't Lionel make more types of locomotives, more new tooling and added detail, etc., not just the same old replays every year?

- Why can't Lionel give us more detail, more fidelity, more adherence to scale, offer more road numbers, etc., etc.?

- Why can't Lionel give us more features like whistle steam

- Why can't it be made in America, or at least if made overseas, can't Lionel control quality a bit better?

 

Which is these themes isn't going to increase cost?  

 

Meanwhile, Lionel has Lionchief and Lionchief plus on the entry-level and perhaps emerging in the lower- and mid-range.   I think they have set themselves up pretty well, particularly because their little red "made to order" sticker means they aren't going to get burned financially when they bring out new models at the high end.  Alll this means they might not be the company everyone wants, or even wants to buy from, but they will make money , I have no doubt, and probably expand their market share in areas they have targeted.  That, no doubt, is what is most important to them. 

Remember what Lionel said last year about the TMCC / RS Lionmaster steamers.

 

"Good luck holding your 10 remotes in your hand at the same time."

 

My thought is that Lionel isn't aiming the Lion Chief line at those who are going to have 10 locos.  That's a serious hobbyist.  The Lion Chief line is aimed at the typical train set buyer, who may add another loco or two, some rolling stock, some track, some accessories but that's it.  I'd guess that's 95% of the folks who buy train sets and that they account for the majority of Lionel's revenue.  This is beginner stuff and for those who want to add a few, not 10 locos to their hoard. 

 

Those who move on to have 10 locos are likely to be buying Lion Chief Plus and operating conventional, or Legacy and operating command, or both.  Most people won't jump in and buy 10 locos of the Lion Chief/Lion Chief Plus type from the getgo.

My layout is 6X12.  I have all Fastrack on the bottom with 048 and 036 turns with 8 Fastrack switches.  My elevated level is tubular with 054.  I have a ZW with 4 180 watt bricks and two Legacy remotes.  I have over 10 engines, maybe closer to 15 and several LionMaster engines.  I also have 2 scale steamers, one with a smoking whistle - The Polar Railroad K4.  So what Lionel catalog would I shop from? Certainly not the RTR.  

 

Like Marty E said I would purchase any engine in the $700 range.  I am seriously thinking about the NYC Mikado but over $1k this is a stretch for me.  I will get the BNSF SD70 and it will look OK on my layout and look OK on 048 Fastrack turns.  

 

So I am not a beginner but also don't have a layout with 072, 096 turns that is 1000 sq ft - So not sure where I fit in.  I am not complaining and can buy a couple of things from this catalog but I do think Lionel is missing the majority or a large part of a market segment.  That is why I want LionMaster back - That was a great brand and was a great product for us "middle of the road" guys.

Look for deals from dealers.. Or buy some used ones ... There was a guy on the forsale board selling a 4-8-4 northern for 800 shipped and it has smoking whistle.. So you only buy one train a year at least its a good one.

Totally agree with this.

 

 

ATSD Doug,

 

I love the new catalog. Yes, the models are expensive but this is an expensive hobby. Those models are very expensive to make, so providing a $700 Legacy steamer in EVERY catalog is probably a hard thing to do. They had the 2-8-0 in the catalog for a quite a while, if I'm not mistaken so it had run it's course. The new catalog find Lionel doing what has made them famous over the years...innovating. That deserves celebration.

 

I am sure that they will have another lower priced Legacy steamer at some point in time, you'll just need to wait it out. Guys like me have been waiting for the whistle steam to return for several years...we had to wait it out. Yin and Yang.

 

By the way, I'm ordering the Heavy Mikado at a pre-order price of $929, which is not too far from $700. That's also not a bad price for a newly tooled engine. So you don't have to spend $1,300 on a steamer. The key is to pre-order.

 

Sometimes I feel sorry for the guys at Lionel because no matter what they do, they can't please everyone. I guess the old phrase "you can't please all the people all the time" is truer than ever. 

 

Thanks,

Eric Siegel

 

I was talking to a friend about the new catalog, and here is my take....

 

I also do not have the budget to spend 1K plus for a new engine, and

think that it is great if you are able to!  I guess that you could put me

at the lower end of the food chain - The folks that can afford the new

latest releases tend to sell off current older engines to fund the latest

and greatest.  I have been very successful just keeping watch for the

late pre-owned - "new to me engines" - at a fraction of the price of the

new ones!

 

(I AM BEING SARCASTIC WHEN MAKING THE FOLLOWING STATEMENT

=> "Anyway there do not appear to be any dealers offering good prices on here") <= SARCASM

 

Joe S.

When I was in HO 15 years ago a good brass engine was about 800 to 1500.00. Sometimes more. Its a tough pill to swallow and not everyone can shell out 1k for a toy.

It takes a certain strategy to save that kind of money.

 

I notice I have quite a few smaller steamers in TMCC and Legacy. They look great on 072 curves and 12 car consist, but they just don't get the run time.

Studying the market, the mark-up is greater on these big steamers, demand is higher, and most hobbyist are in 'awe' watching them run.

So its only natural that Lionel would pick some of the bigger steam engines to release.

 

If you are looking for that price range of steamers try upgrading some of the older 2-8-0's 2-6-0's with ERR boards, not legacy sound but you still get 100 speed steps.

Also the brass weaver and Williams engines are nice.

Always wanted a 2-10-0.

Whereas Lionel has become "king" of big steam in recent years, making smaller steam locomotives with all the command/sounds/speed control features has been where MTH has lead, in the past anyway. l love to operate my Premier PRR and PRSL H-10 Consolidations, Reading Camelback, and A-3 PRSL Switcher locomotives. The sound systems are not as robust and fun as Lionel's, but that doesn't bother me because MTH made these models with great detail and in roadnames that I like. Small steamers look great on any track diameters, the larger the better, obviously. I was also looking forward to the Legacy Camelbacks, and yes, they were cancelled. I managed to get a Legacy Atlantic in Reading roadname last year, and that was moderately priced.

 

 

 

Hats off to Lionel for those Berkshires! I always thought that the only thing missing was the steam whistle from those engines. What I also like is that I have never had any real issues with these engine designs. I am thinking of ordering one. Its a toss up between the 765 and Polar Berk. I am currently running Legacy C&O and Pere Marquette Berks. Great engines! 

 

What I dont understand is why they dont include the swinging bell in any engines. I have it on the CC2 and it is always looks great. They seem to be going away from this feature in recent offerings.