Menards new engines are now online

Jim R.,

Boy am I glad you came on. The three most knowledgeable people when it comes to Menard's train products are you, Cabinet Bob and Mark the Menard's man. Jim R. can you provide us with any information regarding the changes that have been made to Menard's New Santa Fe diesel. Thank you and Merry Christmas Jim Sutter

I wish I could for this second version. I didn’t get one. I’m curious about what changes Menards has made so far.

Thanks Jim. I appreciate it. We will just have to wait till these new diesels start showing up at the homes of the people that ordered them. Once they run them, they will let us know the pluses and minuses. Hope you have a wonderful and safe evening.

Left to right. Alpha 1.0  Bata 1.0.  Bata 2.0

@cabinet Bob posted:

Left to right. Alpha 1.0  Bata 1.0.  Bata 2.0

The guys grew up quite a bit between Alpha and Beta 1.0. They can barely see out the window!  LOL!  Any comment as to what got addressed from Beta 1.0 to Beta 2.0, Bob?

@cabinet Bob posted:

Left to right. Alpha 1.0  Bata 1.0.  Bata 2.0

Looking good Bob! 

Other than the stripe color, they all look the same to me. Would also like to see a list of specific changes.

When the reviews  come in, you will see Menards  listened  to all your concerns. I'm  not giving one, the reviews  will tell it all.....

How close to scale is that unit? I'm thinking project base.

@AGHRMatt posted:

How close to scale is that unit? I'm thinking project base.

It's pretty much to scale.  Of course it doesn't have the detail level of the higher priced units.  However, it's good for it's price point.

Rusty

I am opening the loco now. Check this posts for all my updates. Respond with questions.

VIDEO 1 - Box and Opening

VIDEO 2 - Taking out of Package and First Look

this clip shows the gears are not metal.

VIDEO 3 - No Conventional

VIDEO 4 - Speed Control

Images of Inside. Heading to dinner. Let me know if you have any other questions. I will try to get to them later. I really dig this model.

My question about Menard's choice of wireless system referred to the frequency of the RF carrier. The choices are UHF, WiFi or Bluetooth.

@TheRambles posted:

I am opening the loco now. Check this posts for all my updates. Respond with questions.

VIDEO 2 - Taking out of Package and First Look

On my end, video two is completely black when playing it (even in a new tab).  Would you please re-upload it?

Close to scale, as long as (again) it is measured as an FP9 (which it is) and not an F7 (which it’s not).

@Micro posted:

On my end, video two is completely black when playing it (even in a new tab).  Would you please re-upload it?

Thanks for letting me know. It’s fixed now.

This was plastic on Beta 1?*

*answer: turns out it was brass

@BOB WALKER posted:

My question about Menard's choice of wireless system referred to the frequency of the RF carrier. The choices are UHF, WiFi or Bluetooth.

I don’t know a lot about this stuff, But don’t these two silver components indicate that it is not Wi-Fi or Bluetooth?

I wonder how hard it would be to modify to add conventional operation as an aftermarket function.  Seems straightforward enough. For an engine without flywheels it starts and stops easily.

The two metal cans are most likely crystals which suggest a carrier around 900MHZ. The stripes on the left hand edge of the pictured PC board is the modem antenna. I have tested various control systems using all three RF carrier approaches and the carrier choice does not materially  affect the system overall performance. Menard's choice may have been based on what modem chips they could obtain as there has been a widespread modem chip shortage affecting everyone.

Any updates running Beta 2.0?

I’m preparing a video as we speak. Standby and should be up in a few hours.

As promised, here's a video review. The video isn't polished, but it should give some additional thoughts and impressions that I have. In the video, I promise an Augmented Reality object to download for anyone who wants to put a virtual model of the engine on their screen (for zooming and inspection) or on their train table to see how it looks in the real world--I'm working on it, but it will have to wait until tomorrow.

A summary of my thoughts:

-Great pulling power. Acceleration/Deceleration appear to have gotten some attention as it's not too jerky.
-Engine wants to go really fast even at a very modest turn of the dial.
-Horn and bell are just plain awful. This should be an easy fix and I'm surprised nothing's changed in Beta 2.
-If there were changes to anything other than the acceleration/deceleration, I'm overlooking something. But I can't find any.
-For $160, it's hard to complain too much.

Beta 3/Production Candidate suggestions:
Get a better horn and bell. Hands down.
Recalibrate speed-to-dial-turns. Engine moves really fast even at a relatively slight dial turn.
Label the volume switch on the bottom of the engine
Re-orient the remote power switch so that a flip UP is on, and a flip DOWN is off.

If those top two things happened, this engine would be absolutely fantastic at this price point.

@Rafi posted:

Beta 3/Production Candidate suggestions:

Get a better horn and bell. Hands down.
Recalibrate speed-to-dial-turns. Engine moves really fast even at a relatively slight dial turn.

If those two things happened, this engine would be absolutely fantastic at this price point.

Thanks for the video!

i would add--
1. Add conventional (AC transformer) control.  Without that, I would have to be extremely hard to convince to buy it.

In fact, as much as I love and adore the concept of a Menards engine (especially if it is marketed as an FP7 unit when you folks say that no one has previously made an O-scale FP7), I would be almost 100% sure that I would not buy this or ANY engine that doesn't have conventional, even at a ridiculously cheap price.

@Rafi posted:

As promised, here's a video review. The video isn't polished, but it should give some additional thoughts and impressions that I have. In the video, I promise an Augmented Reality object to download for anyone who wants to put a virtual model of the engine on their screen (for zooming and inspection) or on their train table to see how it looks in the real world--I'm working on it, but it will have to wait until tomorrow

Nice video, I thought the horns came unattached. Guess mine was beat up in shipping.

Looks like they retained the red led number boards also. Would have preferred white led's.

@Micro posted:

(especially if it is marketed as an FP7 unit when you folks say that no one has previously made an O-scale FP7),

Third Rail made FP7's.

Rusty

It would be nice if someone started a new thread for reviews of the BETA 2.

@Rusty Traque posted:

Third Rail made FP7's.

Rusty

No one has made a three-rail FP9, which is what this unit is. But as I say that, I’m still wondering: Did Menards create this mold, or did someone else make it and never use it? I wish in this one instance Menards would be more transparent about this model’s production background.

@Jim R. posted:

No one has made a three-rail FP9, which is what this unit is. But as I say that, I’m still wondering: Did Menards create this mold, or did someone else make it and never use it? I wish in this one instance Menards would be more transparent about this model’s production background.

At least they stopped calling it an F3...

My response was directed at this statement: "(especially if it is marketed as an FP7 unit when you folks say that no one has previously made an O-scale FP7),"

However, that's neither here nor there.  While it's true the model represents an FP9, it's missing the 5 horizontal vents on the side panels (while lacking any dynamic brake fan) is a spotting feature of factory-fresh FP9's.  In fact it's missing any vents on the side panels, yet it has the odd detail of a drip strip over the nose door, mostly applied to CN and ON F-units:

Personally, I would reason this is someone else's aborted project and Menards is under no obligation to reveal the source if it is.

Rusty

Well Guys,

Having read all of the posts, it seems to me as if many folks are dying to fall in love with this engine due to the price, but just can't.     And,  . . . for good reasons.

A new diesel engine with a really lousy horn and bell is a dog, no matter how cheap it is.

A new diesel engine with a remote-only control, that wants to accelerate to high speeds when the throttle is modestly turned up is a dog, no matter how cheap it is.

A new diesel engine with plastic gears is, . . . well not a dog, but not really what most folks want.

Some folks have mentioned that at a price of only $160, who can complain.    Well, are you really buying a new engine so you can bite your tongue, ignore its shortfalls, and not complain? 

Yes, $160 is an attractive price, but have you looked at the December sales for engines, such as on the Trainworld site?   For just $40 or so more, you can get a much higher quality engine, with no problems.  Yes, the great majority of them are conventional, but since most people who like command control trains already have an integrated system and engines for that, what good is it to add yet another remote control, that is an odd-ball on the table and for only one engine, which definitely has issues?

My impression is that most of the folks buying these Beta engines are caught up in the "thrill of the hunt"!   

"There are only 200 of these, and I gotta get one ,and then play with it and test it and pull it apart and write about it!"

Yet, after this is all done, I think most buyers will end up having spent $160 plus for this thrill, and be left with a deficient engine sitting on the shelf with its plastic controller, and long forgotten.

At present, this engine is, I believe, plain and simple, a cheap little starter engine for kids who just want to turn a dial and watch it go round-round-round.  Nothing inherently wrong with that, . . but it is what it is.   (I am somewhat amazed at the excitement that it has created among so many adult O gaugers.)    But, unless Menard's goes forth and makes significant changes which will raise the price by $50 or so, it will probably never be more than that.

Nonetheless, one thing I really applaud Menards for, is that they listened to all of the feedback of the test customers, and promptly made a round of changes to try to fix some of them.

When was the last time that Lionel did that?

Mannyrock

@vallieone posted:

Looks like they retained the red led number boards also. Would have preferred white led's.

Here is the LED for the number boards

@Mannyrock posted:

Well Guys,

Having read all of the posts, it seems to me as if many folks are dying to fall in love with this engine due to the price, but just can't.     And,  . . . for good reasons.

A new diesel engine with a really lousy horn and bell is a dog, no matter how cheap it is.

A new diesel engine with a remote-only control, that wants to accelerate to high speeds when the throttle is modestly turned up is a dog, no matter how cheap it is.

A new diesel engine with plastic gears is, . . . well not a dog, but not really what most folks want.

Some folks have mentioned that at a price of only $160, who can complain.    Well, are you really buying a new engine so you can bite your tongue, ignore its shortfalls, and not complain?

Yes, $160 is an attractive price, but have you looked at the December sales for engines, such as on the Trainworld site?   For just $40 or so more, you can get a much higher quality engine, with no problems.  Yes, the great majority of them are conventional, but since most people who like command control trains already have an integrated system and engines for that, what good is it to add yet another remote control, that is an odd-ball on the table and for only one engine, which definitely has issues?

My impression is that most of the folks buying these Beta engines are caught up in the "thrill of the hunt"!   

"There are only 200 of these, and I gotta get one ,and then play with it and test it and pull it apart and write about it!"

Yet, after this is all done, I think most buyers will end up having spent $160 plus for this thrill, and be left with a deficient engine sitting on the shelf with its plastic controller, and long forgotten.

At present, this engine is, I believe, plain and simple, a cheap little starter engine for kids who just want to turn a dial and watch it go round-round-round.  Nothing inherently wrong with that, . . but it is what it is.   (I am somewhat amazed at the excitement that it has created among so many adult O gaugers.)    But, unless Menard's goes forth and makes significant changes which will raise the price by $50 or so, it will probably never be more than that.

Nonetheless, one thing I really applaud Menards for, is that they listened to all of the feedback of the test customers, and promptly made a round of changes to try to fix some of them.

When was the last time that Lionel did that?

Mannyrock

I think your points are well taken.  However, I think the significance of this locomotive is the potential to appeal to a broader segment of potential hobbyists with a store that has a larger retail footprint that even the largest O gauge dealers.  So that ability to market and introduce the hobby to a bigger audience is the proverbial big deal of Menards becoming a full line player in O gauge.  But again why someone who owns any high end O gauge would buy this locomotive, other than as a starter set for someone new in the hobby, or perhaps a child, is beyond me.  And that is not a knock on the product.

It seems what it is, an attempt to produce a 'toy train' engine at a reasonable price. Lionel once produced the scout set engines, they weren't inherently any better than this *shrug*.  It is like Menard's cars, they are designed to be affordable trains to 'play with', they aren't designed to compete with scale equipment. The Menards engine is meant to invoke the old Lionel F3's, whether it is an f3 or f7 or fp9 doesn't matter, some of the comments on here were kind of funny in that regards (I understand people were trying to figure out what Menards used as a base, but still, some were saying how it didn't have this, that, this is a representation, not a scale model

My guess is looking at the 3 rail market there really isn't that much to the 'low end'. Railking is way more expensive than this, lionchief is great but again, is at a higher price point, I don't even know if Atlas has their low end line,williams is expensive for the most part, unless on closeout. Looks to me like a true toy train, designed to give enjoyment, fits kind of in with the three rail traditional trains.  The only thing I question is lack of conventional control, but then again it isn't hard to use this with command, no new wiring, turn transformer to like 16 v and you are ready to go.

@bigkid posted:

It seems what it is, an attempt to produce a 'toy train' engine at a reasonable price. Lionel once produced the scout set engines, they weren't inherently any better than this *shrug*.  It is like Menard's cars, they are designed to be affordable trains to 'play with', they aren't designed to compete with scale equipment. The Menards engine is meant to invoke the old Lionel F3's, whether it is an f3 or f7 or fp9 doesn't matter, some of the comments on here were kind of funny in that regards (I understand people were trying to figure out what Menards used as a base, but still, some were saying how it didn't have this, that, this is a representation, not a scale model

My guess is looking at the 3 rail market there really isn't that much to the 'low end'. Railking is way more expensive than this, lionchief is great but again, is at a higher price point, I don't even know if Atlas has their low end line,williams is expensive for the most part, unless on closeout. Looks to me like a true toy train, designed to give enjoyment, fits kind of in with the three rail traditional trains.  The only thing I question is lack of conventional control, but then again it isn't hard to use this with command, no new wiring, turn transformer to like 16 v and you are ready to go.

^^THIS^^

It's a $160 O gauge, 3-rail toy train engine. And as far as that goes, it's a great deal. Would I like it more if it has better speed control and better sounds? Darn straight. Do I hope that this beta will help to identify that as an area focus for the final product? Absolutely.  But my kids won’t care.  I got it for my kids for Christmas morning and have zero regrets.

Rafi

@bigkid posted:

It seems what it is, an attempt to produce a 'toy train' engine at a reasonable price. Lionel once produced the scout set engines, they weren't inherently any better than this *shrug*.  It is like Menard's cars, they are designed to be affordable trains to 'play with', they aren't designed to compete with scale equipment. The Menards engine is meant to invoke the old Lionel F3's, whether it is an f3 or f7 or fp9 doesn't matter, some of the comments on here were kind of funny in that regards (I understand people were trying to figure out what Menards used as a base, but still, some were saying how it didn't have this, that, this is a representation, not a scale model

My guess is looking at the 3 rail market there really isn't that much to the 'low end'. Railking is way more expensive than this, lionchief is great but again, is at a higher price point, I don't even know if Atlas has their low end line,williams is expensive for the most part, unless on closeout. Looks to me like a true toy train, designed to give enjoyment, fits kind of in with the three rail traditional trains.  The only thing I question is lack of conventional control, but then again it isn't hard to use this with command, no new wiring, turn transformer to like 16 v and you are ready to go.

Considering the prices on the modern loco's, this is a steal even if the price went to $200.00.

I was just in my LHS and the sticker shock is just wearing off......

One key point demonstrated by the Menard's  new loco is that the future of loco control will be dominated by wireless systems.

... looks like something you would buy at "Toys R Us"...😄... but that's just me, I suppose. 🙂

Mark in Oregon

In the FWIW category, just today I put some miles on a '70s vintage Lionel Alco that has plastic gears.  The engine has so much use that its pilot is broken and the shell is worn.  It runs smooth and steady still at 50 years of age or so and pulls a reasonable length train as easily as if there were no cars behind it.

Will this engine perform as well in 50 years?  Who knows?  I just know that my childhood Alco--similarly worn but whose pilot is not broken--runs better and more reliably than all of my digital era, TMCC or Legacy engines.

@Strummer posted:

... looks like something you would buy at "Toys R Us"...😄... but that's just me, I suppose. 🙂

Mark in Oregon

Well, right on the box they say these are toy trains.....including the 2000 dollar vision line last I looked.