They closing the doors? WTH I hate Lionel for O gauge.
We seem to be collectively going thru all phases of grief.
Glad you are all here.
I agree Alan. I hope the MTH crew will be at York in October (if they have it) so we can all say good bye.
Just like to mention: I have put all of my MTH engines and most of my rolling stock (as Mike Hall from Rust Valley Restorers likes to put it) in the NFS category. That is Not For Sale!
@Hudson J1e posted:I agree Alan. I hope the MTH crew will be at York in October (if they have it) so we can all say good bye.
And I hope they're there so we can just ask them what the new company name is. 
With all that's happening in this country and the world today, try to remember that we are talking about toys, a hobby, and they certainly aren't "investments", but merely purchases we made with discretionary income. The sky is not falling!
@Landsteiner posted:For the people wondering if BLI would be interested in MTH's HO and perhaps O tooling, one might consider that BLI is owned by Bob Grubba, who hasn't exactly been Mike Wolf's favorite colleague in the industry
. Seems unlikely at best.
Just need to see how things play out. The sky isn't falling, at least not yet. OGR and CTT do not rely on MTH for significant revenue, for one thing, so I'm keeping my subscriptions active. I would advise everyone to do subscribe to both if you can afford it. Supports the industry and the hobby.
Past grievances in business often times mean little to nothing. I have seen businesses that went through nasty court battles turn around and partner, sell to each other, etc.
Fact is unless you know Bob Grubba personally, you have no idea what he may or may not do.
@TexasSP posted:Hardly an accurate statement. DCC is a standard protocol. Modern versions do everything DCS and Legacy does and then some. The interfaces have also become very user friendly and you can mix and match.
The first systems were also about 30 years ago not 40.
It's obvious you have no current DCC experience. Talk to the 2 rail guys and they can show you how far DCC has come. Also the base of Legacy which is TMCC is almost 30 years old as well.
Haha. You may want to check your facts and research who you are talking to first next time.
The origins of DCC were developed in the early 1980’s for Marklin and Arnold. Yes, it wasn’t until the 90’s that we adopted it as part of the NMRA/DCC standard.
it’s “obvious” that I have no DCC experience? Lol... I happen to be a 2 rail modeler and have used DCC since the late 90’s. I have also used TMCC, Legacy, and DCS since their inceptions. There is simply no way you can tell me that DCC is as user friendly because it just isn’t. You are doing everyone that isn’t knowledgeable on the subject a disservice by saying that it is. It can be made to work well and where it really shines is as an accepted standard, which DCS and Legacy/TMCC never achieved.
I’m glad to hear that the DCS system will continue to be supported. It is easy to learn, works well, and there are a zillion engines out there running that system.
Jackson, I agree the sky is not falling but to many of us MTH was a beloved company. I am sure everyone agrees that MW should get and deserves a great retirement. We just don’t want to see a company we have come to know and love go away.
Many factors in this news. But remember Mike Wolf has a little more insight into China than the vast majority of us. He may just be ahead of the curve on this,
@Hudson J1e posted:...the sky is not falling but to many of us MTH was a beloved company. I am sure everyone agrees that MW should get and deserves a great retirement. We just don’t want to see a company we have come to know and love go away.
Exactly. And that perception was enhanced by the charismatic personality of its founder.
MELGAR
I saw my first Mike's Train House set running at hardware store on the square in West Plains, MO in 2002. That window display got me back into O-gauge trains! Thank you, Mike Wolf! Hope to see you at York this fall.
MTH did bring big changes to the hobby, but our hobby is not doing well. There are just too many trains for sale and less and less customers to purchase them. I do think this may have played a big part in Mike's decision to walk away. Lets face it, how many of us can keep buying new trains every year. I guess new engines are the backbone for profit, but being retired when I have the cash to spend on a engine or rolling stock I look for good used ones. Thanks Mike for taking the name TOY TRAINS out of the hobby and giving us high quality models, great variety and just beautiful scale models.
"Fact is unless you know Bob Grubba personally, you have no idea what he may or may not do."
Turns out I do know Bob . I don't know what he'd do, of course, since I haven't asked him. But I'm pretty confident he has reasons he might not be interested.
@jonnyspeed posted:Haha. You may want to check your facts and research who you are talking to first next time.
The origins of DCC were developed in the early 1980’s for Marklin and Arnold. Yes, it wasn’t until the 90’s that we adopted it as part of the NMRA/DCC standard.
it’s “obvious” that I have no DCC experience? Lol... I happen to be a 2 rail modeler and have used DCC since the late 90’s. I have also used TMCC, Legacy, and DCS since their inceptions. There is simply no way you can tell me that DCC is as user friendly because it just isn’t. You are doing everyone that isn’t knowledgeable on the subject a disservice by saying that it is. It can be made to work well and where it really shines is as an accepted standard, which DCS and Legacy/TMCC never achieved.
I’m glad to hear that the DCS system will continue to be supported. It is easy to learn, works well, and there are a zillion engines out there running that system.
As long as you feel you're special, that's fine, lol.
There are many options out there and DCC of 30 years ago when first released by Lenz in 1989 has come a long way. Don't forget electric car technology first arose in the 19th century, and well.........
In the digital world, all of these systems are OLD.
@shawn posted:Or, it will moderate prices.. The more you make....the cheaper you can bargain for the manufacture.
That rarely happens when you move towards a monopoly, while it is cheaper to build things in bulk, businesses without competition price to maximize profits, so if Lionel now sells 2000 instead of 1000 of a product, the fixed costs are spread over a larger run, so the profit/unit goes up. Not to mention when there is a semi monopoly or monopoly, they will charge what the market will bear. My guess is that the prices won't change much, with the prices currently charged I think increasing prices would go over like a lead balloon, in large part because trains are discretionary spending, not critical spending.
@AlanRail posted:good luck to Mike. things happen. especially these days.
How do any of you know that LIONEL or Atlas or Menards isn't a breath away from closing.?
Answer: YOU DON'T!
I know Menard's isn't, because they aren't a toy train company, they are a big home improvement store chain that likely has done well during the current situation. Could they shut down their train operations? Sure, but given it is a sideline for them and they are bringing out new products, I doubt it.
As far as Lionel and Atlas goes, one indication is if they are bringing out new products, if they were in financial straits they wouldn't be. Atlas could of course get out of the O business if they aren't making money there, but I haven't seen any rumblings about that. Given that Lionel and Atlas are private companies, there is no way to know for sure, it is a lot easier to see if a public company is in trouble since they have to report financials, but I suspect, at least where we are right now, they aren't shutting down in the near future.
@artfull dodger posted:I think the last person that had Mike's passion and drive with toy trains was J.L Cowen during his tenure with Lionel back in the day. Mike definatly got big "L" off its duff to up their game. He drove the industry just as Josh did in the Prewar and Postwar eras. I wish him many good years in retirement to enjoy whatever pastimes he enjoys, both trains and otherwise. Cheers. AD
Don't forget about Richard Kughn during his 10 year ownership of Lionel. Without him Lionel may not have survived. During his time innovations such as Railsounds, the creation of LionTech with Neil Young which would eventually create TMCC.
In an interview he once mentioned he was warned by his accountants that purchasing Lionel may not be a good financial decision, yet he purchased it in spite of this for his enthusiasm with the Lionel brand.
Just to add what everyone else is saying about Mike, he is a ball of positive energy, listens, tries to do the very best of what is asked, etc., etc. Heck, to put into perspective of how much he means to us all, I have deleted from this morning emails nearly 140 replies, almost all of them from this topic alone.
Seeing Mike on TW's video from. A few years ago when he was at the factory, you couldn't put an anchor on him to hold him in place. He moved and talked with the excitement of a Christmas morning child opening trains galore.
@maint posted:MTH did bring big changes to the hobby, but our hobby is not doing well. There are just too many trains for sale and less and less customers to purchase them. I do think this may have played a big part in Mike's decision to walk away. Lets face it, how many of us can keep buying new trains every year. I guess new engines are the backbone for profit, but being retired when I have the cash to spend on a engine or rolling stock I look for good used ones. Thanks Mike for taking the name TOY TRAINS out of the hobby and giving us high quality models, great variety and just beautiful scale models.
I have concerns for the future of the hobby, and the fact that a buyer for the whole of MTH hasn't emerged adds to those concerns. However, anyone who thinks there aren't any train buyers out there should take a look at Stout's current auction - lots of MTH and Weaver (nothing I'd call particularly collectible) - many of the bids are already high and it's still several days until the auction.
"WTH I hate Lionel for O gauge."
I guess you may be straight out of luck then. My condolences.
@gunrunnerjohn posted:I can't even get boards now from MTH parts, so the statement that DCS isn't going away kinda' flies in the face of reality, at least for me! Stuff is stacking up with no parts to repair it, and MTH keeps shipping everything but the boards that are listed as "available". Sorry I don't share your optimism, but I'm kinda' results based.
John-
I don't know why they show available on the website, but it is possible this is a supply chain issue, I see all kinds of weird manifestations of this, like a local Lowes that literally had no belt sander belts at all, so it is possible the boards haven't come in yet.
It is interesting they talk about improving the PS3 boards/DCS, that implies that they have seen some interest in enhanced features, which in turn implies someone building an engine to take advantage of them (though it depends, if it is something like improved sound, that would upgrade an existing engine).
I feel Bachmann/Williams will cherry from the rooling after MTH closes. If no buyer emerges then the tooling is scrap value. That is when you buy. Tooling will not leave China.
I have to give Mike credit for bringing scale and detailed locomotives /rolling stock to "O" gauge.
However, I feel that when the lawsuit with Lionel was all settled and done, Mike lost some interest in "O", after all he spent a great deal of time/money and ended up with the same settlement he would have had at the very beginning without a lawsuit.
At the same time Atlas and later Lionel started to produce highly detailed locomotives and rolling stock. True MTH was already producing nicely detailed items, but started lousing ground to the much higher detail items being produced by these other manufactures.
When I came back into the hobby MTH had just introduced DCS, each new catalog featured exciting new items, subway sets, locomotives, scale signals end of train devices, European trains, just to name a few. However, over at least the last five years the catalogs became stale, mostly re-runs of existing items done over and over. Case and point the only new "O" gauge item introduced by MTH during this period was the 44 tonner. Mikes focus seemed to move from "O" to "HO" where he introduced some very nice models. Unfortunately, there were issues with some of the "HO" offerings. This coupled DCS offered by MTH over DCC may have been a little problematic. MTH may not have done as well as hoped in this market, after all the "HO" guys are no where near as forgiving as us "O" gauges.
So i'm not surprised that Mike has decided to retire given the current state of the market and the world. I wish him the very best and thank him for his contributions.
I agree, Mr Kuhn was an excellent steward for Lionel. Dick brought back the respect and quality to the Lionel line that was lost thru the MPC era of cheapening everything. He revived the scale NYC Hudson and many other Hudson locomotives and pushed the envelope with sound for the era. Hopefully some or all of the MTH line survives with another company in the future. With all the current issues, it might be a bit before someone steps forward. There is time yet for an interested party to come to the table from the sounds of things. AD
I'm not a bit surprised at this when looking at the moves MTH has made over the years. The model train market is complicated, overpopulated, and saddled with baggage, some of which goes back to the early days of the hobby.
Jeff C
NYC 428....
I'm sorry to say, I tend to agree with your statement "However, over at least the last five years the catalogs became stale, mostly re-runs of existing items done over and over."
I have also noticed that (and there have been severals post here about the same thing ) not a lot of new, innovative items were being released.....catalogs contained mostly reissues of existing items in new paint schemes.
Items like DCS, Mel's Drive-In, Car Wash, animated Fire House, etc. were all ground breaking accessories. But its been quite a while since anything like those came to market.
Retail is like selling lettuce....it can only stay on the shelf for so long before it get's old and will no longer sell......
I find this thread fascinating, even though my layout and collection are only conventional Williams and Lionel postwar. However, I have no idea what your are talking about TMCC, DCC, DCS, BVD, STP, etc.
No way to know how this is going to play out, the fact that it looks like a group is going to support DCS is interesting. This is obviously pure speculation, but it could allow third parties like Third rail, Atlas and others who now license TMCC, to use DCS (I assume that with part of this, unlike under MTH, would be to license PS3 or build PS3 boards outside firms could use). That would be a double benefit, it also might force Lionel to offer Legacy boards to outside people if that happened, given PS3 is much more advanced than TMCC.
I suspect no one firm is going to buy MTH, otherwise why spin off the DCS group like that,you would figure someone buying MTH would take it lock, stock and barrel. The warranty support is another clue, if a new product has a warranty I believe the firm has to make accommodations to allow for service until the last item passes its date,it means Mike is nowhere close to finding a buyer of the whole thing.
My guess would be that it will be sold in parts, someone like a Williams/Bachman might buy the tooling for engines, Menards might buy tooling for the cars, though I doubt it someone could buy the tooling for scale trax. For Bachman if PS3 is available, they could offer MTH engines or even their own with that in it while not having to support it directly.
As far as why Mike retired at this point, there could be a lot of reasons, he could simply be tired of running the business and with no heir apparent, decided it was better to close it/sell it off. It could be (God forbid) he is ill, you just don't know why someone would close a business that otherwise seems to be doing ok. Is he getting out of Dodge while the time is good, IE sees dark clouds on the future of the business? Maybe, it could be another reason that factored into it, but we don't know. Trying to discern the future of the hobby, the future of building stuff in China vs the US and so forth on one event like this is like reading tea leaves, only Mike and maybe some people close to him know why he chose now to retire. Could be he has worked hard for 40 years, has made enough money to be able to retire now and enjoy the lifestyle he wants, and wants to be able to catch the early bird dinner specials in Florida
I would like to see Sunset/3rd Rail acquire MTH tooling and produce the Premier and Railking lines, perhaps in lesser volume than MTH was doing. This might not affect their current business which is in a somewhat more upscale market segment. Sunset already has a significant presence in the O gauge market and manufactures successfully in China. Acquisition of MTH would make them large enough to compete effectively with Lionel, which I believe is necessary to sustain a healthy marketplace. However, I expect that Sunset/3rd Rail will be satisfied to keep their business as it is right now.
MELGAR
Menard's that's the answer.
@superwarp1 posted:Menard's that's the answer.
Somehow, I doubt it.
I guess folks are hoping for $99.95 Big Boys in a plastic bubble...
Rusty
You might have made the best decisions by sticking to conventional. Like Lionel of old, simple trains need no factory service. For the most part, with simple maintenance, they run flawlessly. I was just considering selling my Williams engines recently. Now I need them for back up down the road if my digital trains need service from a defunct manufacturer. That has always been a concern of mine with electronics. Having invested so much in my layout, I can be assured that those non digital trains will keep me into the hobby forever.
On the other hand, I can honestly say I have fully enjoyed the digital era and, as so many have said, it got a lot of us back into trains and it proved to be FUN.
Regarding the comments about MTH's lack of innovation, they used innovation to expand into HO and European trains. R&D budgets can only go so far. They used those funds to diversify instead of putting all their eggs in one basket. I have been very pleased with MTH catalogs of late. Reissuing some of the accessories, for example, was welcomed by me. And what's wrong with adding another F3 with a different paint scheme to honor a new road name? I have a CNW on order now.
I'd be extremely surprised to see 3rd Rail/Sunset do such a thing--with the possible exception of the former S Helper S scale line (in the event that it was available dirt cheap).
It seems to me that MTH exiting O scale helps 3rd Rail every bit as much as it helps Lionel.
Jeff C
@Jamos posted:……. WTH I hate Lionel for O gauge.
Why @Jamos?
I'm just not a fan overpriced outdated controls I mean I have the legacy controller it looks like a 1980 design. Bluetooth is nice but not as many features. Smoke output sub par. Like I said love MTH and using my app to control my trains with the high selection of souds.
@superwarp1 posted:Menard's that's the answer.
Menards is not an OEM train company.
Great, just what we want…Masonite trains. 
MTH had a license wit Siemens to buil scale moels of their stuff, I believe. What happens to that?
@Charlienassau posted:Just got the newsletter announcement. Will post
Charlie,
Nice to see your still around... I have been mia for 5yrs but this notification justified a response.
Mike was the rebel that lit the fire in many of us at a time when old tired Lionel was slogging thru the muck of old tooling no innovation and living off their golden past.
I want to thank Mike Wolf for his foresight, dare to dream, and tenacity to make MTH the leader in our hobby.. Mike made a visit once to my old club Golden Gate TTOS. when DCS was first released, I bugged him to make it and he went out of his way to accommodate that request..
Life for me has moved on and the collection is shrinking, but if not for Mike. I would have never had the pleasure of relieving my youth for a number of yrs.
Thank you Mike. and all the best to you and yours in retirement
Railking
Very shocked that Mike would be closing MTH. It's sales are still very strong and cannot imagine why he would not sell the business. I would not have entered O gauge without MTH, and my layout is DCS and Legacy and way prefer DCS. Not going to change....no way. Glad to see DCS continues, as given my huge investment in MTH products, that would have been unethical IMO to stop support there. Hope MTH gets sold and continues in some format, as Lionel products are getting overpriced with questionable quality control, and they have had a lack of products in the road names I like. 2020 is turning out to be a crappy year all around it seems.
As a toy train runner, Lionchief+ line is very good, and that, along with their starter sets which give good bang for the buck and are fun out of the box, there will be plenty of new product to buy if I have the mind. I will miss MTH subways big time, though. I have several MTH engines and I'm sure I'll continue to be able to run them. I will be buying another z1000, however: gotta keep auto mode going!
And- if all else fails in the model train Zombie apocalypse, I can always go back where I started: Lionel post war. I still have engines from my childhood that are swell, and run and run and run....
