@SIRT posted:
Menards is not an OEM train company.
Great, just what we want…Masonite trains.
Neither is MTH or Lionel. They don't own the tooling. The factories in China do. For the most part MTH, Atlas, 3rdrail are importers.
@SantaFeJim posted:Really? Can you give me 1 good reason why Lionel would even entertain any thought of buying MTH?
Their number one competitor just announce that they are going to fold. Lionel's best move is to sit back light a victory cigar and pour themselves a large drink and slap each other on the back. Declare victory without having fired a shot.
That victory maybe short lived. With Lionel's price increase's I know it's hard for me to buy their products. It will be interesting to see what happens.
Mike has said on several occasions that he, MTH, owns the factories.
@rdj92807 posted:It's sales are still very strong
Just curious...how do you know this? And if you do know, it would be interesting to hear what the actual number is.
I suspect that "ownership" has a different meaning in China.
We all owe a debt of gratitude to the 3 W's, Weaver, Williams, Wolf. They changed O-gauge into high quality model railroading. The pre- and post-war Lioonel were durable, solid, and not particularly good operational performers. After the 50's, their quality went downhill to the popint Lionel was unattractive--I bought nothing. Then in 1990, I came across an ad for a Weaver 0-6-0, in brass. I ordered one in P&WV livery, and eventually the hobby shop told me it could not deliver. I phoned around and found that Mike's Train House in Columbia had one, so I ordered it. A few months later went up there to see what these new manufacturers were making, and bought a Weaver C-630 LV livery, from a guy named Mike. When he released his own line (before the R-K/Premier split, I got hooked on his products and, with a few Williams items, have been hooked on MTH ever since. (Incidentally, I converted all those old Weavers, Williams, and MTHs to PS2 with supercaps, and all still run superbly.
Were it not for the 3 Ws, I'm sure Lionel would never have produced the scalish locos it does today, with the electronics. Thanks, Mike, for helping to make O-gauge attractive again.
@RJR posted:I suspect that "ownership" has a different meaning in China.
Agreed......the retired Analyst in me that worked on some of the largest mergers in history, I'd like to know the details of 'owning' any assets in China. Doubt we ever will know.......but the norm is no one owns anything alone.....everyone has the government as a partner.
And as owner of more than 50 MTH locos....I do say THANKS MIKE!
The S scale product line could be "sold" to a company like Fox Valley Models, so that that the line could be produced all the way through at least one more time.
Andrew
BTW, MTH trains can be controlled by Lionel transformers(ex: CW-80).
I first came in contact with Mike back when he had a store in Maryland selling Williams and Lionel. That was in the last years before my father died, and I picked up a few things from Mike for my father's train board.
Mike did a great deal to move O gauge towards greater realism. There were a number of other early players in this trend though that have been forgotten: Weaver, Intermountain and Pecos River Brass as well as Williams, which Mike had a hand in, spring to mind. While some in the 1980s were celebrating the revival of postwar Lionel under new leadership in Michigan, others already were trending towards 3 Rail Scale.
I have been involved in enough successful and unsuccessful business transfers over the years to know there are a host of reasons why some happen and some don't. Without inside knowledge I wouldn't presume that I knew why Mike has made his move. Better to simply wish Mike the best and hope enough of MTH carries forward under some new ownership to allow us to continue enjoying our hobby.
Sad to read.
But, good for Mike! Well deserved! Heck of a ride, pal!
Somewhat 'spooky' for me, though. Last month a thread was started to recognize the great contributions of Midge at MTH Parts. Someone opined how troubling it would be should she retire. On May 20 I countered:
"Returning to the post-retirement concerns....
I have as many concerns about the company's future 'post-Wolf'!!
Then, again, his genes and occupational stamina should outlast mine......
"
Here in Michigan, our store (LHS) was finally permitted to have a limited number of customers within the store on Tuesday, May 26, the day after Memorial weekend. After 20+ years of this second career....behind the counter (Counter intelligence, we call it.) in the Trains Dept., I turned in my 2-week notice of my second retirement (first was after 31.5 years at an automotive corporation). The face mask, the plastic sheet counter shields separating us from the customer, the other Covid-19 protocol requirements....too much for this old phart to adjust to. It was time. Last Friday, June 5 was 'the end'.
Then, this.....Mike Wolf does, indeed, announce his scheduled retirement, as we learned on June 8.
I don't know about the genes, of course, but I guess for both of us our "occupational stamina" has dropped its fire.
ANYTHING.......to take the mind off 'other' news of the world around us.
KD
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FWIW, I just knew this was coming. You could tell because, for at least a decade, there haven’t been DCS software updates, new O gauge models, or improvements such as substituting flanged wheels for blind wheels.
The announcement makes no sense. Isn’t it normal to sell a company before retiring? Also, I'm skeptical about DCS and parts. The announcement is vague in regard to those two issues.
Endless speculation, based on very few facts.
As a semi-retired news magazine editor/publisher, I think everyone should wait until there is more information—beyond what has been stated in the initial letters to retailers and individuals—available, before going off—what's the old expression? Ah, yes—half cocked.
Another thought: How will the MTH change/closure affect York's viability?
I haven’t seen Right of Way industries mentioned as a contributor to changing the hobby. I believe he was also one of the first to retire and close the company.
@RockvilleBear posted:Another thought: How will the MTH change/closure affect York's viability?
While I'm no longer a TCA member, York is so much bigger than any one manufacturer. Besides, there is all that secondary market stuff to sell and buy.
Rusty
@RockvilleBear posted:Another thought: How will the MTH change/closure affect York's viability?
It won't. What did MTH do to advertise for the York Meet? They mentioned it on Social media but beyond that none of the manufacturers have done much to promote York. I will give them credit though they were committed to the spring meet.
I'm not sure why everyone thinks York needs all the majors. It was a members only meet before they all showed up and most likely will be again.
@superwarp1 posted:For the most part MTH, Atlas, 3rdrail are importers.
Well, it's a whole lot more than that. All the innovation, design (including all the electronics), organization, coordination and direction to and with the Chinese factories (most of the employees of which don't know a locomotive from a bicycle) who simply build what they're told to and are given plans for (whether it's a model train or a Barbie doll), sales, advertising, shipping and delivery arrangements are all done (or have been done) by Lionel, MTH, Atlas and the rest.
@MartyE posted:It won't. What did MTH do to advertise for the York Meet? They mentioned it on Social media but beyond that none of the manufacturers have done much to promote York.
Actually it will mean more loss of revenue for the Eastern Division. It costs a pretty good chunk of change to display there.
Pete
@Andrew-Porter posted:Endless speculation, based on very few facts.
As a semi-retired news magazine editor/publisher, I think everyone should wait until there is more information—beyond what has been stated in the initial letters to retailers and individuals—available, before going off—what's the old expression? Ah, yes—half cocked.
Really???? Half of our hobby is going away and we are just to say 'OK...nice' and not discuss? As I've said....MTH is WHY I am in O3r......it's worth discussing informed or not......and I think it's been very civil and smart so far.
I know many love Menards...and that is fine. I hope they go nowhere near MTH as far as business is concerned. I have had nothing but junky Chinese, defective, poorly made products and the worst attitude and customer service on earth from them. It was my experience....yours could be different....but I shudder to think of that company going anywhere near MTH.
I want to apologize to everyone for bringing this on. Until a year ago, I was strictly Lionel and WBB but fell in love with my brother-in-law's MTH engines and bought my first Rail King Imperial, then another, and then a couple more. I think I jinxed us.
Seriously, MTH makes/made nice products and I hope we aren't orphaned. I have a few questions but don't want to hijack this topic, so I'll post separately.
@AlanRail posted:We seem to be collectively going thru all phases of grief.
The ones I imagine are going through grief are the dealers who have been specializing in selling MTH trains. They will have to completely reorganize and establish new business relationships, and make lots of other changes if they want to stay in business. Clearly they can't make it by just selling MTH parts and DCS upgrades for trains that are no longer made, even assuming there is no interruption in that supply chain, which there likely will be. MTH parts were slow before this happened!
I also suppose sales of remaining engine inventories will experience a slowdown, and possibly require price deductions. Regardless of the announcements being made about continued support, many potential buyers are going to shy away from purchasing new engines made by a company that has gone out of the business of making trains.
It seems likely that Lionel will now be making larger production runs, but that's not a bad thing for them, obviously.
DENIAL that's one of the phases
Start up cost for a business is huge .. buying a business is very limited potential customers .
when I am ready to sale or retire I sure wont announce it to ANYONE.
I would either owner sale it or make the deal to someone before anyone knew it was for sale..
I be too afraid of not getting my full potential of money for my business.
(unless I made so much money ... and it was time to let someone have it for cheap and I get a write off for my gains taxes)
but its his call.. good luck and thank-you for what you have done ....daniel
Speaking of the York meet, MTH had a tremendous impact in the mid to late 1990s.
In the late 80s and early 90s before MTH, the collector frenzy was still near its peak. Member and dealer halls alike (no Orange hall yet) consisted of table after table with postwar boxed sets in the $1000s, high-priced individual collector items and Lionel MPC on which everyone wanted to double their money.
There was little for the collector of limited means like myself. York really wasn't a lot of fun for the average guy on a budget.
MTH offered the opportunity to buy new engines and rolling stock at a reasonable price that ran much better than most MPC. York and the hobby in general became much more fun for many people like myself, and only got better still when more manufacturers such as Atlas and K-Line among others entered the field.
MTH offered items that few ever thought would be available in 3 rail such as the PRR and NYC electrics, doodlebugs, a variety of trolleys, RDC cars, road diesels, and big steam in both scale and Railking sizes. We could finally have an articulated steam engine with full sound that ran on O31 curves!
The 3 rail hobby was much different before MTH.
Thank you, Mike.
Jim
@breezinup posted:Well, it's a whole lot more than that. All the innovation, design (including all the electronics), organization, coordination and direction to and with the Chinese factories (most of the employees of which don't know a locomotive from a bicycle) who simply build what they're told to and are given plans for (whether it's a model train or a Barbie doll), sales, advertising, shipping and delivery arrangements are all done (or have been done) by Lionel, MTH, Atlas and the rest.
I'm not sure how much of the design work is done stateside any more.
I remember Mike Reagan posting something about how they wouldn't know what parts an engine would have until they received them from China.
I agree. It'll be interesting how the market plays out. Will the end create apathy or a rush to get coveted engines/cars/accessories greater? K-line stuff still sells well on eBay at good prices (no one is giving them away) and so does Weaver. I'm a little weary about engines because they have complicated repairs. However, I can honestly say, owning MTH Engines for over 25 years, I've had just a few that needed repair. I had to buy a new board once on my Big Boy, new trucks another time, a coupler once and, recently, my local dealer had parts to fix a new Electroliner. I did have to send a Z4000 back twice, though -- a both times separated by about a year. Given the track record, time, the amount of MTH stuff I own, I can honestly say I've had few problems.
Based on this I don't really see an issue with buying out of the new MTH catalogs. They will back the product for a year through 2022. I find this situation intriguing because I purchased a K-line Collector's club CSX engine right before K-Line closed and Lionel ended up fulfilling the order after they bought K-Line and I was blown away by the quality of that engine when I received it and love that engine to this day. And I have not had any repairs in it.
I say support your hobby shop on MTH stuff until the end if you can. But it's fair to say a lot of hearts are broken over this news.
Discounted engines prices,more like a hard to find collectable and a higher price tag. Just wait and see. Especially for smaller road names that were hard to get. Mth did a great job vrs lionel producing them over the years.
@Lionelzwl2012 posted:Discounted engines prices,more like a hard to find collectable and a higher price tag. Just wait and see. Especially for smaller road names that were hard to get. Mth did a great job vrs lionel producing them over the years.
The last big ticket O 3r item I bought was a Amtrak Turbo Train set with 2 extra cars........now I am really happy I pulled the trigger on that one!
@superwarp1 posted:Neither is MTH or Lionel. They don't own the tooling. The factories in China do. For the most part MTH, Atlas, 3rdrail are importers.
Funny! Not true. MTH owns and most of it's tools were shipped to China from Korea (built in Korea) and moved many times.
@Norton posted:Actually it will mean more loss of revenue for the Eastern Division. It costs a pretty good chunk of change to display there.
Pete
Agreed there. I’m sure it will have an impact, I just don’t think it will spell doom. There really wasn’t much promotion for from any of the manufacturers though. If I recall at one time it was reported that Mike Wolf did threaten to pull out unless it went public I could be wrong.
@MELGAR posted:I would like to see Sunset/3rd Rail acquire MTH tooling and produce the Premier and Railking lines, perhaps in lesser volume than MTH was doing. This might not affect their current business which is in a somewhat more upscale market segment. Sunset already has a significant presence in the O gauge market and manufactures successfully in China. Acquisition of MTH would make them large enough to compete effectively with Lionel, which I believe is necessary to sustain a healthy marketplace. However, I expect that Sunset/3rd Rail will be satisfied to keep their business as it is right now.
MELGAR
Great idea, but not likely real world. Sunset/3rd Rail has a nice little niche in the marketplace. MTH is bigger by many multiples.
Pat
The new MTH catalogs came in today's mail. Lots of stuff.
Time to stock up on those hard to get subway traction tires! Wow! I just got through this entire thread and I’m floored. I haven’t been on the board for a few days and when I come back, I see this?!!! Unreal. Best of luck to Mike and I hope the demand generated by MTH engine owners keeps parts, traction tires, and boards in continued production, whomever it may be. I can’t wait for 2020 to end already.
@Strap Hanger posted:Time to stock up on those hard to get subway traction tires! Wow! I just got through this entire thread and I’m floored. I haven’t been on the board for a few days and when I come back, I see this?!!! Unreal. Best of luck to Mike and I hope the demand generated by MTH engine owners keeps parts, traction tires, and boards in continued production, whomever it may be. I can’t wait for 2020 to end already.
My thought exactly! Now I have to find the part number!
@breezinup posted:The ones I imagine are going through grief are the dealers who have been specializing in selling MTH trains.
The MTH approach was much more favorable to dealers than Lionel. No BTO and no distributor.
@RockvilleBear posted:Another thought: How will the MTH change/closure affect York's viability?
IMHO, very little if any.
I spend all 2 1/2 days at the fairgrounds, as do a few other carloads of friends.
While we go our own ways during our hunts, almost all of our time at York is in the private vendor halls, then the dealer halls, then, if time permits, we'll meet up at the Lionel & MTH booths for a few minutes before we leave.
We pour over PreWar and Post War. Standard, O and S gauges.
I have some "modern era" Lionel and a couple MTH pieces but they gotta have that traditional size and look for me.
I do admire the beautiful scale engines that come in new orange and purple boxes though.
What are you guys doing? All the agnst, complaining, feeling sorry for yourselfs because you may not be able to get parts or your favorite trains. Mike Wolf wants to retire for God's sake. Wish him good luck and thanks for 40 years of great trains.
We know nothing of what will happen in the future with MTH or will not happen. All the crying is getting very annoying.
Dave
@MTH posted:Funny! Not true. MTH owns and most of it's tools were shipped to China from Korea (built in Korea) and moved many times.
One of the plastic model companies had tooling in China. The company wanted to move it out of China. When they go the tooling it looked like it had been dropped off a 3 story building. It took almost 2 years to have it cut again.....but yes....they still owned a very costly paper weight.
MPC/Fundimations was a return of quality, after a rough patch. Late post war would get you an engine with a single dummy coupler, no working head light, no body detail, no E-unit and only a hand full of items by 1969 where in the catalog, by 1976 quality and detail had returned. The EMD F unit tooling had been repaired and the detail that had been filled in during post war was back, along with 3 position E-units, formally a luxury were common in the product line. The U36B was in production as a new engine, even on an old frame, that EMD units shared, but things had turned around, and the needle point axles that are now common were introduced in that era. Color and a varity of road names appeared. Treated well like anything they last a long time, run them hard with no or little maintenance and like anything they will break.
As for the cost, hand labor is expensive, many of our trains have hand applied details, and hand done wiring, that takes time and skill. Does not matter who makes it, it will be expensive. The more detail, the more expensive it will be. Labor in China is close to USA in cost now removing the brief drop in productions costs many have enjoyed. This combined with the weakening purchasing power of modern money, drives costs up.
Mike Wolf I am glad is doing his best to make it as smooth transition as possible, and being open as he legally can with us the customer. I received the dealer Email today from MTH. Lionel Cowen was more or less forced to leave, and sold all of his shares. I am glad he is retiring on his own terms. May he enjoy it.
