Mike Wolf to retire and close MTH

@Sarah posted:

That’s sad news. I hate to say that but I don’t see a lot if potential in 3-rail O-scale. HO is the future.

I read this a lot over and over, and I don't get it.

People complain about the "size" of O and that it takes up twice the space.  First, that's not exactly true. HO is 1:87 so O is really only 1.8 times larger.  Maybe a nit-pick but worth mentioning I think. 

Second, I was an HO modeler for years.  I would say that 90 percent of the HO market is complete garbage.  The quality is terrible, the consistency is terrible, and most of it is extremely fragile.  It's hard for little kids to work with, and for older less nimble hands as well.  The sweet spot for HO is ages 15-35 and most of that age group is too busy going to school or working and raising a family to invest money and time in a hobby like this.  I'm 42, and switched to O about 10 years ago.  There are great HO offerings out there, but they are just as rare and/or almost as expensive as the MTH Premier and Lionel Legacy.

Third, watching an HO layout is pretty boring IMO.  O is a nice size that is impressive to look at.  On the higher end of the spectrum the models are WAY more detailed than the HO counterparts - partially because it's actually large enough to see. Also the sounds, lights, and action in O scale are easily and order of magnitude better than HO.  If you are a steam aficionado like me, the smoke alone is worth the jump.

To me, the biggest advantage of 3 rail AC is the ability to have reversing loops.  You can connect up the track however you want, no insulators needed, no directional control need - it just works.  I think this is why the Marklin system remains popular in HO overseas - though I would love for O to adopt a track system more similar to that!  All it would take is replacing the pickup rollers.

I called them a couple weeks back for MTH smoke units and they took my order over the phone and charged me appropriate shipping. Give them a call if u need stuff. Let’s keep supporting them. 

Traction tires!  Oh geez where do we get them from now!  LOL!

@Scratchbuilder1-48 posted:

With all the well wishes to Mike Wolf and his retirement and success over the years , why not a group of the forum members pony up and buy the company . I was informed once by the sponsor dept. of the forum  that there are some deep pockets on this OGR Forum , problem solved , keep the staff in place and the O gauge train world gets to keep the spirit alive of MTH . He certainly brought about 3 rail scale trains , it would only be fitting for forum members pool their resources for the cash infusion side and you have the existing staff to run it . Like a co-operative , you can vote on what gets made , what features , how much it should sell for , maybe turn it into a 501C3  , a non profit , there you have it ,problem solved . Easy  peasey

"Nothing is so easy as the job you imagine someone else doing!"

(With hats off to one of the several great philosophers on this forum)   

@RadioRon posted:

People would also be wise to re-think any further purchases of MTH track, especially their O gauge offerings.  What company is going to pick up and support the manufacture of a full line of plastic-bed O gauge track?

IMO, ScaleTrax is THEE track system for another company to pickup.  It is the best looking 3 rail track out there.  It also seems like because of it's low profile, it would be the cheapest to manufacture.

@WITZ 41 posted:

Chinese will sit on as much tooling as possible, then turn it into cheaper knock off junk versions of what were once good products. 

After all of the current state of affairs, where is the market for 100% Chinese owned and operated models of American locomotives and rolling stock?

The manufacturing plants in China have a vested interested in either selling the tooling/molds to a US company or getting a reputable US company to act as the front for the manufacturing like MTH was.  Having a US based operation with a service and support arm makes for a much more credible business. 

@rplst8 posted:

After all of the current state of affairs, where is the market for 100% Chinese owned and operated models of American locomotives and rolling stock?

The manufacturing plants in China have a vested interested in either selling the tooling/molds to a US company or getting a reputable US company to act as the front for the manufacturing like MTH was.  Having a US based operation with a service and support arm makes for a much more credible business. 

MTH owns the molds, I have a problem with any thing made in China right now. I ordered a few items from the last catalog but not nearly what I have ordered in the past. If someone where to buy the tooling from MTH and bring it over here I would pay extra to have them made here or another Asian country that is friendly to our country.   I will pay for what I have ordered but it ends there.

@rplst8 posted:

The manufacturing plants in China have a vested interested in either selling the tooling/molds to a US company or getting a reputable US company to act as the front for the manufacturing like MTH was. Having a US based operation with a service and support arm makes for a much more credible business. 

I think this is one of the possible outcomes. The question is whether someone in China thinks that O gauge trains will remain a viable market in the United States. But they have every incentive to preserve their business.

MELGAR

@Scratchbuilder1-48 posted:

With all the well wishes to Mike Wolf and his retirement and success over the years , why not a group of the forum members pony up and buy the company . I was informed once by the sponsor dept. of the forum  that there are some deep pockets on this OGR Forum , problem solved , keep the staff in place and the O gauge train world gets to keep the spirit alive of MTH . He certainly brought about 3 rail scale trains , it would only be fitting for forum members pool their resources for the cash infusion side and you have the existing staff to run it . Like a co-operative , you can vote on what gets made , what features , how much it should sell for , maybe turn it into a 501C3  , a non profit , there you have it ,problem solved . Easy  peasey

"Pony up" for a 501c3 non-profit to make toy trains? 

Just how much 'pony' ...to the left of the decimal point...do you think is in play here?....chump change?

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OMG....this is a demographic perspective for this corner of the hobby I never would have considered.  

Need a few beers here........gotta think about this.

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OK, I'm ready...

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@Rafi posted:

 

Short of that, however, I suspect that this announcement could go down as one of the major watershed moments in the final decline of O Gauge.

Oh, I don't think so. Lionel has such an iconic name in trains after generations of existence, far more people in the country know of Lionel than MTH. MTH has to be explained to many of those who enter the hobby, but they know Lionel.

Lionel was in most respects the only game in town in the O gauge market before, and they will step into their old shoes again. They have always been considerably larger in the market than MTH anyway. And they will continue to innovate. After all, they came up with a command control system, and realistic electronic sound systems, when MTH was still young, and forced MTH to play catch-up to stay competitive. Not to mention coming up with a new, super easy-to-use command system with their LionChief series, for operators - including those new to the hobby - at a lower price point.

Some people like to talk about how MTH pioneered the move to more scale-like products. They certainly took it mass-market, which was a great deal for the hobby and not to be underestimated, but Williams and Weaver started it, bringing scale products in from Korea and first establishing a relationship with Samhongsa in Korea, and MW followed their lead, learning the game while working for Jerry Williams. Lionel had begun to do it too. Richard Kughn of Lionel, using MW as a contact with the Korean producers with whom MW had established a working relationship as a result of his work with Jerry Williams, started bringing Korean-made Lionel scale offerings to the market as well. So MW didn't exactly pioneer the path to scale Asian made trains. He expanded what others had started. A very notable achievement, indeed. But he wasn't the first to plant a flag in the Far East. And as noted above, Lionel was the leader in technical innovation with development of command control and realistic electronic sound systems, both done with no outside competition from MTH or anyone else. 

So is the end of MTH production going to be the beginning of the end for O gauge? Not hardly, IMHO. History (which too many people ignore or are ignorant about), as well as other things, shows us otherwise. This also could be good for Atlas O, 3rd Rail, Williams, and other manufacturers (including those who make accessories, buildings, etc. etc.), who could easily see their markets increase. 

I wish all the best to the folks taking over the business of MTH customer service, electronics and parts. I think there's enough of a market out there with all the MTH engines around to ensure a reasonably strong, continued demand for their products. I hope so - I just ordered a new MTH steam engine yesterday! Going against the flow right now! 

"I would say that 90 percent of the HO market is complete garbage. "

Rapido, Scale Trains, Athearn, Bowser, BLI, Tangent, Exact Rail, Moloco..... may disagree.

-Crank

^^^

As would their customers...

Jeff C

    I'm sorry to hear Mike is calling it quits at such a young age of 60 I think someone noted.

  Got back into my train layout about two years ago and found all my MTH engines started right up and ran great, but, most of my Lionel engines did not. I have several Lionel and MTH locomotives and have found through experience that product line that Mike has been providing is well made, industrial grade in comparison to Lionel's. I have had no issues with MTH locomotives and they all run great. I have had lots of Issues with Lionel electronics in their engines, so all of my diesels engines purchased over the last two years have been MTH. MTH engines are strong and dependable just like MTH rolling stock and assessores. Lionel looks pretty sitting on a shelve, but MTH has them beat on the track. Most of my steam engines at this point are Lionel, but, I have not been running them lately, My lionel 777 hudson locomotive has a sound system issue, so I'm not to eager spending hours to fix it.                         

  I hope someone will step up and take over the MTH product line. There are a lot more items that           I would like to see them add to their product line.  

 Best Wishes to Mike,

He did good by bring the joy of realistic toy trains to a lot of people.

@Rafi posted:

I've been writing this post in my head for 3 days straight now. I need to keep it short and concise, or the only one who will read it will be me.

The elephant in the room: our hobby (regardless of scale) is slowly dying as its membership ages out. O Scale/Gauge is dying the fastest, and this announcement poses the risk of becoming accelerant on the fire. 

How many of us are under 50? 40? 30? 20? Put another way, what are the odds that the number of O hobbyists over the age of 50 is greater than the number under 50? I'd say the odds are pretty good, and that's not good. In the interest of full disclosure, I'm 41.

I've heard the argument that it's a problem for the manufacturers to solve, and while I don't completely agree, MTH dropping out is a huge gut punch to any hope of O Scale/Gauge reversing its declining popularity. It's no secret that O is incredibly expensive when compared with other scales, and it is one of the reasons it struggles to attract folks under 40 who are raising families and building careers. While Lionel has done a good job of marketing itself to younger generations (Disney, Scooby, etc), I fear that most of those sales are grandfather purchases for grandchildren--I could be wrong, though. MTH, however, brought some unique key elements to the hobby that made it palatable to the 20 and 30-something crowd, and not just parents and grandparents. RailKing's price point is the obvious example here. 

MTH's out-of-the-box thinking on the European models, 2-rail and DCC support, and Tinplate are also great examples of a commitment to product line diversity that our hobby has enjoyed that may be a thing of the past. MTH's announcement that DCS will live on as a separate company comes as a huge relief. If DCS becomes licensable, that's a huge boon as well; imagine a world where you can order an engine from someone like Atlas or Williams with either TMCC or DCS, or pay a little extra for an engine that supports BOTH (as component sizes shrink). 

While I can ponder the possibilities of what will happen to the rest of MTH, none of what I've been able to brainstorm helps stem the bleeding of our hobby's membership, and that's what's haunting me.

The only thing that I can think of is for MTH to be reborn with a new generation of leadership tuned to attracting hobbyists aged 20-40. It's going to require, in large part, a re-thinking of what it means to make and sell O gauge to a millennial. Just having an iPhone app and/or bluetooth support isn't sufficient. Alexa/HomeKit/Google Home integration is a no-brainer nice-to-have. Augmented Reality likely needs to be involved here. Building an actual network of YouTube influencers is vital. Presence at CES is key to injecting product awareness into the "everyday consumer" space with major retail buyers. TCA will need to be guided on how to completely reinvent itself; I'm 41 and even I feel like an alien from another planet when it comes to interactions with TCA.

Could Lionel/Atlas/Williams do this on their own? Maybe, but it's not likely. Lionel needs a competitor like MTH in order to drive this innovation through competition. Apple wouldn't be what it is if Microsoft and Google hadn't been fighting it tooth and nail. Ford and Chevy made each other's success. Lionel needs an MTH competing head to head. focused on millennials if our hobby is going to survive the next 10-15 years.

Can MTH be reborn with employees carrying the torch? Maybe. I think that's the hope, because it's apparent that a whole-sale buyout is a fleeting possibility at this point. And even if the employees can pick up the torch, will they have a leader who seeds a vision for the markets that our hobby hasn't attracted in 30 years? Who knows.

Short of that, however, I suspect that this announcement could go down as one of the major watershed moments in the final decline of O Gauge. I really, really hope that I'm wrong, and I hesitated to write this post because I don't like being a Debbie Downer. But we need to force this conversation, and we need as many members under the age of 50 and 40 contributing to the conversation as much as possible.

I'd hate to have to read your long post.  But good post. Always good to get the perspective of younger enthusiasts.

As this topic has generated many, many and many more responses, it makes me think of some of our train friends, brothers and sisters we lost in 2020.  Like comments by people like Marty Fitzhenry and others are sorely missed.  I hope they are all enjoying their trains that never break down and having a good laugh at what we are going through.  Probably way off topic, but I was thinking of them and the absence of there comments regarding Mike's retirement and the ramifications within our beloved hobby.  Somehow in 2 or 3 years, we will have found a way to move forward without MTHs we know them today.

I think Lionel has some exciting technology (probably pushed by MTH). I never have bought a Legacy engine, too much value in Railking. But I understand that the new Lionchief+2 and the Universal Remote make it possible to run all kinds of new products--including the newer Legacy engines. Even some Lionel LionChief starter sets are fun--The Blue Comet has been great bang for the buck--an amazingly good starter set.

I anticipate looking harder at Lionchief+ engines, nursing my MTH along, and going back to postwar Lionel. And my Railking engines have been so robust, I would not hesitate to buy a new or old stock engine, especially a PS3, which doesn't have a battery to worry about and have never given me an ounce of trouble

And there's always N Gauge Kato Starter set if I just want to run a big, long train on my kitchen table. :-)

One HO MTH loco I would love to have is the NYC 4-8-2 Mohawk. I wish MTH had been more successful in HO.

Jeff C

@Rafi posted:

 

… The only thing that I can think of is for MTH to be reborn with a new generation of leadership tuned to attracting hobbyists aged 20-40. It's going to require, in large part, a re-thinking of what it means to make and sell O gauge to a millennial. Just having an iPhone app and/or bluetooth support isn't sufficient. Alexa/HomeKit/Google Home integration is a no-brainer nice-to-have. Augmented Reality likely needs to be involved here. Building an actual network of YouTube influencers is vital. Presence at CES is key to injecting product awareness into the "everyday consumer" space with major ….

"Alexa … order a pepperoni pizza from Pizza Hut

Alexa … throw turnout number 7 and run PRR engine 9120 west at speed step 10

Alexa … keep the clothes dryer tumbling"

"Some people like to talk about how MTH pioneered the move to more scale-like products. They certainly took it mass-market, which was a great deal for the hobby and not to be underestimated, but Williams and Weaver started it, bringing scale products in from Korea and first establishing a relationship with Samhongsa in Korea, and MW followed their lead, learning the game from Jerry Williams. Lionel began to do it too. Richard Kughn of Lionel, using MW as a contact with the Korean producers he'd established a working relation with as a result of his work with Williams, started bringing Korean-made Lionel scale offerings to the market. And Lionel was the leader in technical innovation with development of command control and realistic electronic sound systems, both done with no outside competition from MTH or anyone else."

Exactly true.  

DCS is no technical break-through either, all MTH did was combine two existing open source platforms (TMCC and DCC) and called it proprietary.

@NYC 428 posted:

Exactly true.  

DCS is no technical break-through ether, all MTH did was combine two existing open source platforms (TMCC and DCC) and called it proprietary.

Except that's not true.

DCS doesn't work anything like TMCC, which is why they are able to coexist on the same layout like they do.  While there are similarities to DCC, DCS works differently too and had two way communication way before DCC did.

Also TMCC was not open sourced, they just licensed it to other companies.  With Legacy Lionel stopped doing that.  While TMCC is still licensed via ERR it almost died as well if not for Scott Mann.

OK Guys....the mods and I have been getting a LOT of alerts on this thread.  We have spend too much time editing and deleting the politically slanted comments as well as the bantering between some of you.  Keep comments that are politically motivated to yourself....please! 

Thanks....

@falconservice posted:

The people at Lionel are still working the old Weaver Models line into the new LionScale.

They have their hands full with that operation. 

Andrew

And I am sure glad they did: so much more affordable. Love LionScale.

To follow up with what TexasSP said:

Lionel release the command code to allow one to injected commands into the TMCC base and run engines without using the CAB1 remote. You still have to purchase a TMCC Base from Lionel. You cannot build your own TMCC base that commands the engines directly without first obtaining a license & blessing from Lionel and you'll also have to pay them a royalty for each unit you sell.

The biggest feature that TMCC, Legacy, and DCC lack is two-way communication between the engine and the controlling device.  Lionel circumvented part of this with the sensor track, but that doesn't use the track signal to return info to the controller.

Thank you Mike and everyone at MTH for the great run.  Best of luck to all in the future.  Although I lean toward the orange and blue company I love the Railking passenger cars.  Hopefully those dies can be put to work again.  In fact I have some purple boxes being delivered tomorrow.  Best hobby around.

My decision made decades ago to stick with conventional operations was a wise one. (For me, of course.) No worries about command control! 

Who is the company that built steam engines that had American FLyer Puffing Smoke Units?  Your right if you said MTH.  When MTH brought out the early Railking Steam Locomotives, he used the exact mechanism that Flyer used in there steam locos.   The only difference is that MTH did not have an air-gap between the smoke piston and the heating coils.  Flyer had this air-gap and that gave the choo choo sound.  I guess Mike decided not to have the choo choo sounds because he was going to change over to QSI Proto-1 sound system and smoke unit.   Other train companies had there early engines made in South Korea (Samhogsa?). 

sincerely yours         railbear601  

After 40 years of ownership it’s safe to say Mike most likely just got tired. I commend him for getting out while on top. When he wakes up on June 1st 2021 he will experience a wonderful feeling of relaxation and will be very happy that someone else will have to worry about the model train business. Don’t look back Mike.

@Dave Warburton posted:

My decision made decades ago to stick with conventional operations was a wise one. (For me, of course.) No worries about command control! 

Too technologically advanced.  You're just asking for problems.  I'm sticking with wooden push trains. 

They fell short - 

Just a few more items I hope someone will finally offer to complete my collection...

@MikeH posted:

Too technologically advanced.  You're just asking for problems.  I'm sticking with wooden push trains. 

Not to mention, you don't have independent control over conventional engines on the same track a the same time. With wooden push trains, you have independent dual throttles.

Charlie

@TexasSP posted:

Except that's not true.

DCS doesn't work anything like TMCC, which is why they are able to coexist on the same layout like they do.  While there are similarities to DCC, DCS works differently too and had two way communication way before DCC did.

Also TMCC was not open sourced, they just licensed it to other companies.  With Legacy Lionel stopped doing that.  While TMCC is still licensed via ERR it almost died as well if not for Scott Mann.

Lionel released the Legacy protocol to the public in 2014. It is still open to all as far as I know.

@rplst8 posted:

IMO, ScaleTrax is THEE track system for another company to pickup.  It is the best looking 3 rail track out there.  It also seems like because of it's low profile, it would be the cheapest to manufacture.

I would certainly like to see someone purchase the ScaleTrax track line and add some new turnouts. Ys, slip/double slip, curved turnouts in different sizes, etc...

@TexasSP posted:

Except that's not true.

DCS doesn't work anything like TMCC, which is why they are able to coexist on the same layout like they do.  While there are similarities to DCC, DCS works differently too and had two way communication way before DCC did.

Also TMCC was not open sourced, they just licensed it to other companies.  With Legacy Lionel stopped doing that.  While TMCC is still licensed via ERR it almost died as well if not for Scott Mann.

Except, the last paragraph is not true.

@romiller49 posted:

After 40 years of ownership it’s safe to say Mike most likely just got tired. I commend him for getting out while on top. When he wakes up on June 1st 2021 he will experience a wonderful feeling of relaxation and will be very happy that someone else will have to worry about the model train business. Don’t look back Mike.

Wouldn't it be a bummer if when he woke up on July 2, 2021 he realized that there was a MTH engine that he needs and now he has to pay for it, just like the rest of us.

@rthomps posted:

Except, the last paragraph is not true.

Then exactly who else besides ERR is licensed to make TMCC boards, controllers and equipment? 

Open sourced means anyone has access and can alter the coding. No one has to be licensed to use the software or make there own hardware. If that was the case MTH could have controlled TMCC and Legacy without a connection to a TMCC or Legacy base. 

Having the ability to send limited commands to Lionel's systems is not the same as open sourced by any means.

@jonnyspeed posted:

Lionel released the Legacy protocol to the public in 2014. It is still open to all as far as I know.

It's not clear if that means you could develop an over-the-air TMCC product.  I think that would have to be the subject of a patent search.  Certainly the original patents on TMCC have expired by now I would imagine.  I'm sure the Legacy system is still securely under patent protection.  FWIW, the TMCC protocol was released in the 90's, check The Complete Guide to Command Control, 71-2911-250.

@rplst8 posted:

I read this a lot over and over, and I don't get it.

People complain about the "size" of O and that it takes up twice the space.  First, that's not exactly true. HO is 1:87 so O is really only 1.8 times larger.  Maybe a nit-pick but worth mentioning I think. 

Second, I was an HO modeler for years.  I would say that 90 percent of the HO market is complete garbage.  The quality is terrible, the consistency is terrible, and most of it is extremely fragile.  It's hard for little kids to work with, and for older less nimble hands as well.  The sweet spot for HO is ages 15-35 and most of that age group is too busy going to school or working and raising a family to invest money and time in a hobby like this.  I'm 42, and switched to O about 10 years ago.  There are great HO offerings out there, but they are just as rare and/or almost as expensive as the MTH Premier and Lionel Legacy.

Third, watching an HO layout is pretty boring IMO.  O is a nice size that is impressive to look at.  On the higher end of the spectrum the models are WAY more detailed than the HO counterparts - partially because it's actually large enough to see. Also the sounds, lights, and action in O scale are easily and order of magnitude better than HO.  If you are a steam aficionado like me, the smoke alone is worth the jump.

To me, the biggest advantage of 3 rail AC is the ability to have reversing loops.  You can connect up the track however you want, no insulators needed, no directional control need - it just works.  I think this is why the Marklin system remains popular in HO overseas - though I would love for O to adopt a track system more similar to that!  All it would take is replacing the pickup rollers.

Great post. Like you, I ran HO and had a similar experience before switching to O about 25 years ago. The part of your post I like the best is: "O is a nice size that is impressive to look at.  On the higher end of the spectrum the models are WAY more detailed than the HO counterparts - partially because it's actually large enough to see. Also the sounds, lights, and action in O scale are easily and order of magnitude better than HO."

Size matters, particularly as we get a little older and our sight is no longer 20/20.

Pat 

The reason I don't work on HO stuff is the size and fragility.  Us old guys can handle O-gauge, we can see all the parts.

Haha, right on the money John!

Rod

We also now know most likely why Lionel Corporation Tinplate was not continued.  And just the other day I was looking at the new 2020 V2 Catalog thinking I didn't see any European models as well.  In any event I am looking forward to the re-issue of the Turbotrains.  And better get your order in for the 40th Anniversary Boxcars.