Mike Wolf was an innovator that is making the best decision for himself based on what matters to him. I thank him for everything he’s done to this industry and for the countless hours of pure joy he has provided me. I’m happy for him and I’m ok with whatever the future has in store. I have faith in the market. Demand will drive the solution and the future. If there is sufficient demand, the legacy dcs users and mth train operators will have the parts and the product they need. If the market shifts away, and these operators move to other suppliers and operating systems, then dcs and the mth product will rightfully drift away as things break down. Time will tell, but I personally believe there are so many mth/dcs users that we’ll be pleasantly surprised by what the future holds. Call me a crazy optimist. I’m just having too much fun running my dcs layout and mth trains.
@MartyE posted:I believe Guggenheim is the majority holder of Lionel now.
Actually one of those principals took over a few years ago. Thats when heads started to roll, prices climbed, and QC took a nosedive.
Pete
@Steam Crazy posted:I don't think this is about Lionel vs MTH......
C'mon, this is OGR Forum. You know it's inevitable for any thread to devolve into the usual. 
Thanks for the updates on who owns Lionel. I looked it up when I read the shocked reply that NASCAR had them. It seems to me that at one point I read that something something motorsports had bought them. But Neil Young owns 20% of them and yes Guggenheim has the other 80. Now that's according to the google search I just did, and the information it provided to the right of the screen. They are however located in Concord, NC so the speedway is probably visible from the window.
Apologize for ruffling any feathers about the MTH v Lionel crack, but wanted to clarify that my posts were not headed that way. I also like playing with my trains. My concern is that I don't know squat about repairing them, and if my DCS goes bonkers, knowing there is a better than average chance no one will be able fix it, and that "what we got, is what we got" with no future innovations or changes coming along, kind of gives you that end of a television series you watched for 15 years. Oh well, I went on without MASH and then STARGATE ended so I guess Mike's final episode won't kill me either.
See replies below.
@Yardmaster96 posted:I had the base 1L attached for a bit, but, and I guess it was signal issues, my Lionel's kept firing up autonomously. I'd turn on the system and after a few minutes, the lionel engine began to muffle the sound of a telephone ringing, then all of a sudden with no help from me, it would burst to life. Another disappointment was that MTH at 15 SMPH was slow, but Lionel's at 15 SMPH, was break neck speed. I found it easier and opened up some shelf space by just shelving the two Lionel engines and only running MTH since I had more of them.
I'm curious how you measured scale MPH, since MTH patented that concept and there is certainly no way to determine that with the BASE1L, it has no display. You just turn the red knob until you get to the speed you like. You seem to be trashing Lionel and TMCC without knowing anything about how it operates!
MTH, it's my guess, has no plans to make new stuff, they'll fix whatever is in the shop now and try to clean up that part of the operation. Any talk members and I had about the Export command in DCS WIFI Premium not working correctly, but working in the least on Android devices being updated to work the way it is supposed to work, is a mute point now.
Again, you assume facts not in evidence. It's already been announced that a group is taking over the DCS hardware production and upgrades. I recently read where another group will be providing parts support, of course we don't know how long that lasts until they run out of parts!
My idea, and several have been fielded during this memorial service, was that since MTH was no longer going to be part of this hobby, but still exist in product for many years, wouldn't it be nice if the ONLY remaining O gauge company that builds O gauge engines, by the way they are a little known company called LIONEL, (being facetious), could bury any hatchets they may or may not have with MTH and MTH do the same, especially since they won't BE HERE ANYMORE, and work together over the next several months to come up with a patch that let's Legacy run MTH built engines without crutches.
Apples and oranges. Given the differences it's not that easy. DCS is a bi-directional signal, the TMCC/Legacy is a one-way broadcast to the locomotives. Lionel isn't going to re-invent DCS for Legacy just because you don't like the current state of affairs. Besides, what's Lionel's motivation for spending a significant quantity of R&D money to let you run your DCS on their system?
I'd like to see someone from MTH read all this and get peeved, can't use the word i wanted too, and jump in here and help us understand what is actually going on in Maryland.
Don't hold your breath, I seriously doubt that's going to happen. MTH and their employees know quite well what the industry looks like.
My apologies if I seem over excited about this, I'm not.
Could have fooled me!
But all the same I am trying, and failing, to come up with a solution that may not be great for the industry, but NASCAR if you are listening, and you still own Lionel, get off your dull butts, swoop in, make a deal with Mike, and fix this. I read some place that NASCAR purchased Lionel. If I'm wrong I apologize for spreading misinformation but that's not important right now.
AFAIK, Nascar never had any stake in Lionel.
Speaking of NASCAR , I seam to remember that Dale Earnhardt was one of the developers of the building Lionel now occupies. Sorry for going Star off topic.
Brad
@gunrunnerjohn I operate conventional, yet I could tell you the approximate SMPH that my trains were running at. With sectional track the math is easy enough to do. Also how do you patent "scale miles per hour"? I suspect the patent would be on the technology that controlled the locomotive rather than the concept.
@MartyE posted:I believe Guggenheim is the majority holder of Lionel now.
Lionel went from the Estate of Martin Davis (a former partner of Wellspring) to Guggenheim Capital Management, which owns at least 80% of Lionel . (And majority ownership of the L.A. Dodgers, among other things!)
I was fortunate enough to meet and shake hands with both Mike Wolf and Andy Edelman at Train Fest in Milwaukee. I thanked them for the many hours of pleasure and enjoyment they provided me over the years. I have several hobbies, but if I could only have one it would be my trains. MTH trains has been a big part of the enjoyment.
Like all of you i am sad to this news. I don't know why or how, but things have a way of working themselves out. You just have to have faith. I am certain the same thing will happen here.
Surprisingly, the thing that I will miss most is receiving their catalogs. When the hard copies arrived in the mail it was like a second and third Christmas each year. When the online versions became available, I would email my sons the news, and see if I could get them to check it out. I am not certain they ever did, but it made me feel good inside none the less.
Best wishes to all the MTH team.
I will close by wishing all dads reading this post a Happy Fathers Day.
Bill
@Arthur P. Bloom posted:Just wondering why, over the years, when MTH was at the top of its game, that Mike didn't take the company public. I would have bought a block of shares, as I suspect many thousands of us enthusiasts would have. In that event, Mike would have been appointed CEO or President of the BOD, and the company would still be rolling along, after he steps down.
@Dave45681 posted:Maybe he liked to be able to pursue what he wanted and to have the final say? Some of that disappears when you go public and have to answer to others (stockholders, board of directors, etc).
If he had structured it so he was the majority shareholder, he could have still controlled the company, done anything he wanted, and provided for distribution of shares to long-time employees with a buyout plan. He could have done this in a number of ways, including setting up a closed (non-publicly traded) corporation. One supposes he structured the business the way he did for a reason, but survival of the business, it appears (at least the business continuing in its same form) was sacrificed in the process. Maybe.
It's reasonable to think there are multiple reasons for the end result, including unsustainable market share. Then one question could be asked -- why not downsize? Stop putting out mega-catalogs, and continue production at a smaller scale. MW started the trend of publishing mega-catalogs years ago (which Lionel was then forced to do as well), and some folks at the time opined that this would lead to saturation of the market, and would be detrimental to the long-term health of the hobby. Part of the reason MW did this may have been to try to dominate Lionel and weaken it. That was not to be, of course. Indeed, after years of pursuing this stategy, ironically, it may have been MTH that eventually created a market structure that caused its own collapse. Speculation, speculation.
Speaking of speculation, it's interesting to consider that if MTH had adopted TMCC rather than going off with its own (and highly proprietary) DCS system, when every other company was using a different system, would that have given MTH more value in the marketplace? Would that have made the company more attractive to prospective buyers?
Lots of things we'll never know. 
I don't think I've seen it mentioned yet, but when is the last time you heard of a company giving it's customers and suppliers a full year's notice that they will be shutting their doors? I'd guess Never.
Thanks Mike for once again doing the right thing, well beyond common practice
@breezinup posted:If he had structured it so he was the majority shareholder, he could have still controlled the company, done anything he wanted, and provided for distribution of shares to long-time employees with a buyout plan. He could have done this in a number of ways, including setting up a closed (non-publicly traded) corporation. One supposes he structured the business the way he did for a reason, but survival of the business, it appears (at least the business continuing in its same form) was sacrificed in the process. Maybe.
It's reasonable to think there are multiple reasons for the end result, including unsustainable market share. Then one question could be asked -- why not downsize? Stop putting out mega-catalogs, and continue production at a smaller scale. MW started the trend of publishing mega-catalogs years ago (which Lionel was then forced to do as well), and some folks at the time opined that this would lead to saturation of the market, and would be detrimental to the long-term health of the hobby. Part of the reason MW did this may have been to try to dominate Lionel and weaken it. That was not to be, of course. Indeed, after years of pursuing this stategy, ironically, it may have been MTH that eventually created a market structure that caused its own collapse. Speculation, speculation.
Speaking of speculation, it's interesting to consider that if MTH had adopted TMCC rather than going off with its own (and highly proprietary) DCS system, when every other company was using a different system, would that have given MTH more value in the marketplace? Would that have made the company more attractive to prospective buyers?
Lots of things we'll never know.
The simple matter is all the gnashing of keyboards won't change the fact that Mike Wolf is driving the process.
What Mike coulda, shoulda, woulda done is irrelevant. We may or may not particularly like a potential out come, but we really have no say in the matter.
Rusty
@breezinup posted:If he had structured it so he was the majority shareholder, he could have still controlled the company, done anything he wanted, and provided for distribution of shares to long-time employees with a buyout plan. He could have done this in a number of ways, including setting up a closed (non-publicly traded) corporation. One supposes he structured the business the way he did for a reason, but survival of the business, it appears (at least the business continuing in its same form) was sacrificed in the process. Maybe.
It's reasonable to think there are multiple reasons for the end result, including unsustainable market share. Then one question could be asked -- why not downsize? Stop putting out mega-catalogs, and continue production at a smaller scale. MW started the trend of publishing mega-catalogs years ago (which Lionel was then forced to do as well), and some folks at the time opined that this would lead to saturation of the market, and would be detrimental to the long-term health of the hobby. Part of the reason MW did this may have been to try to dominate Lionel and weaken it. That was not to be, of course. Indeed, after years of pursuing this stategy, ironically, it may have been MTH that eventually created a market structure that caused its own collapse. Speculation, speculation.
Speaking of speculation, it's interesting to consider that if MTH had adopted TMCC rather than going off with its own (and highly proprietary) DCS system, when every other company was using a different system, would that have given MTH more value in the marketplace? Would that have made the company more attractive to prospective buyers?
Lots of things we'll never know.
Very thoughtful and interesting post. Regarding your third paragraph, when the relationship between Lionel and MTH disintegrated in the early 90s, immediately after which Mike decided to produce a competing line of trains, I do not know whether he reached out to Lionel in an effort to obtain a license to use the TMCC operating system and was turned down or simply decided to develop his own system, DCS. Others may know the answer.
Pat
https://ogrforum.com/...0#146423788483390140 As for the relationship between Lionel and Nascar,Lionel bought Action Performance around 10 years ago. Action was the largest distributor of diecast model race cars and other nascar fan souvenirs such as t-shirts and jackets.
The Premier freight cars are great models.
All of the accurate, real paint schemes have not yet been applied to the line of Premier freight cars.
I have a list of what I was hoping that would be factory painted and printed on the Premier freight cars.
Now I have to wait a year to see who Mike turns over the operation to, so the rest of the real, authentic graphic schemes can be applied at the factory.
It is going to be difficult removing the paint from a Premier O scale freight cars in not real or inaccurate graphics to paint and decal them.
An example is the Premier 100-ton Cylindrical 4-bay covered hopper.
They still did not make it in all of the as delivered private operator paint schemes that were applied in the 1979-1984 period, such as SCOULAR in light yellow with light yellow truck frames, CGLX - Potash Corporation original scheme, UNPX PROCOR.
There are many more
Andrew
Falcon Service
Thanks Johnny. I read it wrong. How I got NASCAR out of Action Performance is one of the many mysteries of my brain. At least now I know.
Gunrunner
I measured the scale miles per hour using my remote. I typed in 15 and clicked the center wheel once and the MTH engine began creeping along at a peaceful 15 scale miles per hour. At least that's what the owners manual said miles per hour were measured. When I ran the Lionel engine, I typed in 15 and clicked the center wheel on the remote and it took off like a train possessed.
I wasn't trashing TMCC or Lionel, I was simply telling someone else that I too had used the Base1L in my layout to run Lionel Engines and due to the mysterious autonomous engine starts, and the speed difference in visually seen miles per hour via my own two eyes, and some other debbie downer problems because I was using DCS and not Legacy to run the engine, I decided to shelve the Lionel engines and make life easier for me and just run MTH engines using an MTH command control system. That's all. No trash.
Facts not in evidence. Maybe they will, maybe they won't, maybe they can't and just aren't ready to admit it. Saw a video today posted on YT by a guy who conversed with a man that worked at MTH. The man told him that Mike had told the employees the building was already sold and it wasn't looking great on the buyer front. Truthfully, I hope I do eat crow to the fullest of plates in this matter. I hope a John Wayne entrepreneur sweeps in and buys up the whole kit and kaboodle company and makes me eat head, wings, guts, feathers and all. Until then, I will treat a lot of this happy talk the way some other posts have treated it, possible but don't hold your breath. You did say parts support until they run out. I like that. But they will run out. DCS support and upgrades. I've heard little birds throughout this post chime in and say, not so fast myron. Yes, I am being very overly pessimistic about this, but I'd rather be proven wrong in this case instead of find out I was right all along. I once helped my high school to the state semifinals by rooting for the other team. I'm a cowboys fan, need I say more?
I understand apples and oranges. Work harder, get the best minds in the business in the same room, and as Andrew Cuomo said in regards to sanitizing subway cars, "figure it out." If MTH survives this, all bets are off. Keep it the way it is.
I'm holding my breath, my fingers just went numb
Fooled you. I'm not over excited about this. I'm determined.
As for NASCAR, see my first entry above.
Also, thanks again for all your help while I was trying to figure all this out. Your tip on what to do with my switch tracks was probably key to my successful set up. I have top notch signal, and for the most part, no issues. I would like to know what that telephone ring sound is when my ES44 shuts down. Just to know what it is. Do real trains do that?
@Yardmaster96 posted:.....................................I measured the scale miles per hour using my remote. I typed in 15 and clicked the center wheel once and the MTH engine began creeping along at a peaceful 15 scale miles per hour. At least that's what the owners manual said miles per hour were measured. When I ran the Lionel engine, I typed in 15 and clicked the center wheel on the remote and it took off like a train possessed.
I wasn't trashing TMCC or Lionel, I was simply telling someone else that I too had used the Base1L in my layout to run Lionel Engines and due to the mysterious autonomous engine starts, and the speed difference in visually seen miles per hour via my own two eyes, ..........
Lionel trains, even when controlled by DCS do not operate strictly in scale miles per hour. It may not make intuitive sense (as someone else alluded to above), but it is in fact patented by MTH to display speed in scale miles per hour. They will not operate in scale miles per hour, even when using a DCS remote to control them. They still work the same way they would with a Legacy or TMCC system, it's just the DCS system sends the command codes to the Lionel base.
Lionel trains have speed steps. Depending on which control system the locomotive has installed (original TMCC, Legacy, or an ERR board), there are a different number of speed steps. The lowest number of steps for original TMCC is only 32! So if you tell the engine to go to speed step 15 (which it sounds like is exactly what you did) out of 32 (almost 50% of throttle), it sure would take off! Maybe not quite "like a train possessed" as you described, but sure would be a heck of a lot faster than 15 SMPH! It would be less noticeable for Legacy or an ERR board, which have more speed steps, so 15 is a much smaller percentage of the total steps available.
What Lionel engine were you running (does it have original TMCC, Legacy, or an aftermarket ERR board?)? It sounds like you were unfairly expecting the DCS system to perform magic on the Lionel engine. While the DCS system can send commands to Lionel engines, it does not alter their operating characteristics.
-Dave
This is the most entertainment I've had in a long time here.
You know, it is no one's business but Mr. Wolf's the reasons why he has decided now is the time.
As far as a buyer fore the company as a whole? Even if there were something in the works, a responsible company is not going to make any of the plans public until a deal is reached. Way back in the day when I sold my long running business for not a small sum, the buyers had a NDA.
Yes, it is sad that MTH as we know it may be no more in another year. However, I think we will all survive. With the spinoff of prospective spinoff of DCS to current employees we should be good.
Lastly, as a long time member of this forum, about 17 years, this thread has me surprised at how many negatively speculative people are here. Come people. In the word of HAL9000, take a stress pill and get some rest. Our trains will still be here tomorrow.
@Dave45681 posted:Lionel trains, even when controlled by DCS do not operate strictly in scale miles per hour. It may not make intuitive sense (as someone else alluded to above), but it is in fact patented by MTH to display speed in scale miles per hour. They will not operate in scale miles per hour, even when using a DCS remote to control them. They still work the same way they would with a Legacy or TMCC system, it's just the DCS system sends the command codes to the Lionel base.
Lionel trains have speed steps. Depending on which control system the locomotive has installed (original TMCC, Legacy, or an ERR board), there are a different number of speed steps. The lowest number of steps for original TMCC is only 32! So if you tell the engine to go to speed step 15 (which it sounds like is exactly what you did) out of 32 (almost 50% of throttle), it sure would take off! Maybe not quite "like a train possessed" as you described, but sure would be a heck of a lot faster than 15 SMPH! It would be less noticeable for Legacy or an ERR board, which have more speed steps, so 15 is a much smaller percentage of the total steps available.
What Lionel engine were you running (does it have original TMCC, Legacy, or an aftermarket ERR board?)? It sounds like you were unfairly expecting the DCS system to perform magic on the Lionel engine. While the DCS system can send commands to Lionel engines, it does not alter their operating characteristics.
-Dave
Lol, Scale MPH! I’ll worry about that when sitting into the train heading toward a sharp curve. Another, neat thing - that won’t be missed.
As the moderator mentioned on page 1, we are getting off subject here, but, as long the moderator doesn't seem to mind I certainly appreciate the information and education. However I do want to pass along some helpful information in reference to Dave's reply to my post about scale miles per hour. First, thanks for the information, I now, after two years understand that Lionel's engines work different when it comes to speed. Especially when they are running on a DCS system rather than a Legacy system. As for me wishing some magic act would happen, I wasn't wishing anything of the sort. Not knowing what I know now and still not knowing until just now, I was simply confused that my Lionel Kansas City Southern 'Naked Belle' ES44AC was traveling much faster at a setting of 15 than my MTH Premier ES44AC traveled at 15. Scale miles per hour is not the issue. How fast or slow an engine travels along the track at a particular setting is what matters. 0 to 120, is what we have to work with in DCS. When I use ALL engines and set all 3 of them, for example, to 35, I expect my DCS system to run all 3 of them at 35 whatever the heck you want to call it. Miles per hour, scale miles per hour, feet per second, or parsects if you are a Hon Solo fan and wish for your engine to make the Kessel run. I have no idea if any of that is accurate and I don't care.
All I knew was that I had to buy a Base 1L box, hook it to my TIU, ground it to the track, and when I ran engines the DCS system would see that one of my engines, now two, was a TMCC engine and not an MTH engine and act whatever "accordingly" means in this case, to run the engine successfully. Successfully in this case, to me, meant, START, started the engine. Rolling the whiz wheel up meant the engine went from 0 to wherever I stopped and move forward at that speed until I stopped it and ran it backwards. To my astonishment, as I did other stuff and was not paying any attention to the engine, it would after about 2 minutes or so, begin to "wake up". Made moaning and ringing noises without any intervention from me. Then, suddenly, BOOM!!! I have an actively running engine on track 4. Cab Chatter, that ratcheting noise it made as it idled, engine was up and running, no help from me. I would shut it down. So if there was any magic going on, it was the poltergeist living in the engine doing the tricks, not me or my expectations. I've had MTH engines do this on occassion, but the Legacy engines did it every time I fired up the layout. I expected all of my engines to operate the way I demanded them to operate via the remote I was using to operate them. To my knowledge there was no information in any of the owner's manuals that spoke of how using a TMCC engine on a DCS system could be a bit of a freak show in the making. Again not trashing TMCC, just explaining what happened in front of my own two eyes. All I wanted to know was why Lionel engines run faster at the same speed setting than MTH engines at the same speed setting. Instead of, "oh, I got this one, this is why...." I get, over and over, "hey dumb****, don't you know? What kind of model railroader are you. Everyone knows that." Well I don't. So to keep with this thread.
Mike, thanks for the memories. Forum, thanks for the help you've provided me over the past two years in getting my layout set up, and any and all knowledge I've gained about the hobby. It's too bad someone doesn't write a Model Railroading for Dummies guide book. Dumb it down. Tell knot heads like me who don't understand why things work the way they do, why things work the way they do in easy to understand language. Quit writing manuals and guidebooks that praise the product and tell us exactly what we have to do to get it to work the way it is designed to work. Assume one thing and one thing only when you write it, all of us are stupid when it comes to this hobby and it's your job to unstupid us by taking us by the hand and guiding us to the end result. I certainly can't do that. This whole fish scale miles per hour jazz has proven that. I'm sure there is someone out there who has the ability to dumb down model railroading for O gauge, and O gauge only, this isn't an HO or G site, and use the "for dummies" platform and write something that explains how all this works.
With that I officially retire as a member of this forum.
God speed and best wishes to everyone I've had the pleasure of talking too, arguing with, or answering questions for.
John "yardmaster96"
Two observations to this thread
1. As men, we all want to solve the problem and debate the technical issues
2. Did anyone notice the lack of women responding here?
The SMPH vs speed-steps is a major factor why I prefer DCS when operating show layouts with multiple trains chasing each other on the same main line. The SMPH for each engine was dialed in almost perfectly (within .5 SMPH), so it never matter what you ran, pick your speed and go. everything followed each other and the occasional adjustment had to be made to slow one down or speed one up by a 1 SMPH for a few minutes.
Doing this with Legacy is nearly impossible and doing it with the CAB1 or CAB1L is suicidal. I could never get the speed steps to line up with each other as perfectly, I was always making adjustments and the operation required 110% of my attention. As a popular forum member told me, I was "busier than one armed paper hanger!" With DCS, I pick my speed with the "ALL ENGINES" mode, sit back, relax and check on it every 20 minutes. Running 4 or 5 consists on the same main line within a few feet of each other is easy.
The other big difference & issue I had with TMCC was how the system behaves when communication was lost with the base. My TMCC engines stopped and set me up for an epic crash. DCS will continue to run even if the TIU was switched off.
This being said, I enjoy using both systems regularly and would still recommend having both on your layout to maximize your fun with o gauge. And don't be afraid to add some LC 2.0 either, now that it has TMCC built in you can run some nice LC 2.0 engines with your Legacy/TMCC/DCS remotes and apps!
@Bill from Rochester posted:Two observations to this thread
1. As men, we all want to solve the problem and debate the technical issues
2. Did anyone notice the lack of women responding here?
They're probably rolling their eyes and thinking "typical males thinking they can solve it all". 
As for males being problem solvers: My wife is pretty darn good at abstract thought and thus in our history as a couple, she has come up with excellent ways to solve problems in ways that think outside my "male box", so to speak.
When you get right down to it, as males, our primal instinct/thought process when facing problems is basically: "Who do I need to conquer or kill in order to fix this?"
Andre
The speed in scale MPH and how well it works is a major advantage to DCS over other systems including DCC. DCC has improved this over the years with better decoder boards but is still not ideal.
RailPro has a way they do speed matching through direct over the air communication between two locomotives. Seems to work great for consisting as they constantly share information with each other with the lead unit controlling the trailing units. I believe this is similar to how real trains consist for the most part.
I believe DCC has improved this with better back EMF detection and allowing people to speed match their locos in the setup stage. I haven't messed with it as i haven't used DCC as much in the last few years although I keep up with it's progression.
@TexasSP posted:The speed in scale MPH and how well it works is a major advantage to DCS over other systems including DCC. DCC has improved this over the years with better decoder boards but is still not ideal.
DCC uses back-EMF, and that will never have the consistent speed regulation that you get with a flywheel sensor based speed control. Back-EMF can be very good, but there are limits.
@gunrunnerjohn posted:DCC uses back-EMF, and that will never have the consistent speed regulation that you get with a flywheel sensor based speed control. Back-EMF can be very good, but there are limits.
Unfortunately true for brushed motors. Works a better with brushless motors. A position sensor/encoder is still more desirable though.
For RC Brushless applications, most vehicles are good with sensorless motors/controllers. However for lower speed applications with fine control, the sensor is desired. This is certainly what we need for model trains.
MTH's method is well thought out for sure. Of course this idea has been in use for long time in many other applications such as CNC machines and what not.
I did not attempt to read all 19 pages of the responses, so I read the first and last pages to get the general drift of what people were thinking.
I bought my first MTH engine in 1995, basically in MTH's infancy. It blew me away and I subsequently bought more. Most of mine were PS1 since I did most of my acquisitions in those earlier years, and I have three with PS2. I met Mike personally a couple of times and often used him as an example of what entrepreneurism looks like when I was teaching management skills in the companies where I worked. He did revolutionize the moribund O'gauge market and created a new Lionel, K-Line and Atlas O in the process. He is to be commended on all he did.
Unfortunately, I'm thinking that the market is saturated. We are not growing a lot of new O'gaugers nor model railroaders in any scale. My wife commented that going to York looked like a geriatric convention with many people needing all kinds of physical assistance. It's not that there's anything wrong with our hobby. It is a spectacular hobby. It's that there are so many more things competing for people's free time. Therefore, it was inevitable that Mike would reach a point of diminishing returns and decide to get out while young enough to enjoy retirement. His travel schedule alone must have been brutal. I've had many conversations with Scott Mann of Sunset 3rd Rail and he must make a trip to China every month to inspect shipments of product or he loses quality control. It would be a different situation if we could make this stuff Stateside.
I will try and be optimistic about an employee buy-out or some other scheme. I for one, don't think Lionel should buy them. I think Lionel's high-line engines are already priced out of my ability to buy them. I'm in a reasonably good position for a retiree, but when engines approach $2k, something's got to give. A toy train shouldn't cost more than a really fine 75" 4K television. The folks in our hobby that have the means and the inclination to buy every copy of every prototype that Mike created are not the main stream of our hobby.
Almost every corporation that you can mention has run its course or was closed/bought out/merged with another. Mike Wolfe probably felt that it was time to move on . If you think about it, the model train market is not at its peak right now and it may well be in a no growth mode. If the revenue stream is not there it is better to pull out now rather than wait for a further change in the demographics of those that buy the trains. Mike did well for himself and will enjoy a very nice retirement. IMO, the market is just not big enough today to support two major model train companies. Short term Lionel may pick up but I'm not even sure what the future will hold for them.
@Trainman2001 posted:I did not attempt to read all 19 pages of the responses, so I read the first and last pages to get the general drift of what people were thinking.
I bought my first MTH engine in 1995, basically in MTH's infancy. It blew me away and I subsequently bought more. Most of mine were PS1 since I did most of my acquisitions in those earlier years, and I have three with PS2. I met Mike personally a couple of times and often used him as an example of what entrepreneurism looks like when I was teaching management skills in the companies where I worked. He did revolutionize the moribund O'gauge market and created a new Lionel, K-Line and Atlas O in the process. He is to be commended on all he did.
Unfortunately, I'm thinking that the market is saturated. We are not growing a lot of new O'gaugers nor model railroaders in any scale. My wife commented that going to York looked like a geriatric convention with many people needing all kinds of physical assistance. It's not that there's anything wrong with our hobby. It is a spectacular hobby. It's that there are so many more things competing for people's free time. Therefore, it was inevitable that Mike would reach a point of diminishing returns and decide to get out while young enough to enjoy retirement. His travel schedule alone must have been brutal. I've had many conversations with Scott Mann of Sunset 3rd Rail and he must make a trip to China every month to inspect shipments of product or he loses quality control. It would be a different situation if we could make this stuff Stateside.
I will try and be optimistic about an employee buy-out or some other scheme. I for one, don't think Lionel should buy them. I think Lionel's high-line engines are already priced out of my ability to buy them. I'm in a reasonably good position for a retiree, but when engines approach $2k, something's got to give. A toy train shouldn't cost more than a really fine 75" 4K television. The folks in our hobby that have the means and the inclination to buy every copy of every prototype that Mike created are not the main stream of our hobby.
Well said and accurate as well.
Come on Atlas. Please step up to the plate.
Dick
@Trainman2001 posted:I did not attempt to read all 19 pages of the responses, so I read the first and last pages to get the general drift of what people were thinking.
Not necessarily the best approach. At the beginning, people are just trying to gather their thoughts. At the end, people are kicking around the crumbs. Like steak and cake, the best stuff is in the middle.
I've been involved with MTH products since 1998 when I bought a RailKing ready to run Hudson freight set.
I was hooked. Prior to that, I had grown up with cheap Lionel 4-4-2s that seemed to come with every set.
Protosound 2.0 caught my interest in 2000, and I bought a DCS system in April of 2002 and have never looked back.
The smell of MTH Protosmoke fluid brings back memories for me just as I'm sure Lionel's smoke pellets and the Flyer smoke fluid does for those of you that were fortunate to grow up during the postwar years.
At 33, I'm probably younger than most here. I had the good fortune to meet Mr. Wolf when he visited Brady's Train Outlet and still have the catalog that he signed for me.
It's been a wonderful 22 years enjoying MTH products, and I will sorely miss MTH.
I just hope that we will have consumables like traction tires, light bulbs, and smoke unit parts available to keep these trains running.
It is sad to see a major Mfgr. close up shop, but I understand. I do not own any MTH Loco's and never will, (beyond my budget) but it will be a bitter pill to swallow for those who have them. I do not think Lionel has any intention of buying parts or anything else of MTH. No one knows what the future will bring, we will have to wait and see.
@Jim Trumpie posted:I've been involved with MTH products since 1998 when I bought a RailKing ready to run Hudson freight set.
I was hooked. Prior to that, I had grown up with cheap Lionel 4-4-2s that seemed to come with every set.
Protosound 2.0 caught my interest in 2000, and I bought a DCS system in April of 2002 and have never looked back.
The smell of MTH Protosmoke fluid brings back memories for me just as I'm sure Lionel's smoke pellets and the Flyer smoke fluid does for those of you that were fortunate to grow up during the postwar years.
At 33, I'm probably younger than most here. I had the good fortune to meet Mr. Wolf when he visited Brady's Train Outlet and still have the catalog that he signed for me.
It's been a wonderful 22 years enjoying MTH products, and I will sorely miss MTH.
I just hope that we will have consumables like traction tires, light bulbs, and smoke unit parts available to keep these trains running.
I hope you meant cheap as in inexpensive. The 4-4-2’s were/are tough little engines. I own a few, with different road names, and have two that I run the most. Of those two, one is a sacrificial engine in that I run it almost constantly when I do run my trains. It’s sole purpose is to see how tough these little engines are. They are tough little engines. And to clarify, I’m talking about the loks from about the mid 1980’s onward until they switched to the 0-8-0’s. Never cared much for them as they were, IMO, switcher engines and not main line engines.
Steve
@RideTheRails posted:I hope you meant cheap as in inexpensive. The 4-4-2’s were/are tough little engines. I own a few, with different road names, and have two that I run the most. Of those two, one is a sacrificial engine in that I run it almost constantly when I do run my trains. It’s sole purpose is to see how tough these little engines are.
Besides....
Attachments
I don't suppose anyone has heard any actual news have they? Obviously no updates on the website news section.
@Gpritch posted:One word . . . Menards?
I have been thinking along the same lines. Menards could definitely buy MTH's manufacturing business and MTH's existing employees could form the senior management team. They could even consider buying the DCS system and the Product Support operations. The nice thing would be that it would still be called MTH!
@NIKHIL posted:I have been thinking along the same lines. Menards could definitely buy MTH's manufacturing business and MTH's existing employees could form the senior management team. They could even consider buying the DCS system and the Product Support operations. The nice thing would be that it would still be called MTH!
When you say could buy MTH, do you have reason to believe that Menards could afford MTH? If they could afford it, would they really want it? It looks like they have a real nice business with traditional size rolling stock, buildings and tubular track. Going scale would be a whole new business model for them.
@Madockawando posted:When you say could buy MTH, do you have reason to believe that Menards could afford MTH? If they could afford it, would they really want it? It looks like they have a real nice business with traditional size rolling stock, buildings and tubular track. Going scale would be a whole new business model for them.
Menards is a $10B/year company, they could easily afford MTH.
But, as you say, would they really want to?
My guess is no. I wouldn't be surprised that when John Menard passes, the train line will be discontinued.
Rusty
My real job had me doing a LOT of 'due diligence' work in the corp world. 'should company A buy company B' etc. We'd go in an look at everything and advise.
To be real honest buying MTH would be nice. You'd get the company name and trademarks, the market reputation and any customer loyalty, hopefully. But you will not get anything to do with DCS and that's big. To buy the company as it is 'whole' (no DCS) would be pretty costly. Without really knowing the numbers who can say.....but current market state it would be tough to advise 'BUY".
But what has been done, like it or not, is allow a company to close, bankrupt or default and swoop in and get the assets for pennies on the dollar. I'll not argue the morals of this method....but it's done all the time.......and if the company is not being sought after by a good number of others.....just a waiting game. Why they call it vulture capitalist'
in the end sad for model train folks....
