Mike Wolf to retire and close MTH

@Rich Melvin posted:

But...the numbers STILL have to work!

Ain't that the truth.  That's a universal truth in business.  No bank lends money if the numbers do not work.  I'm sure MTH's situation is complex because they have an established brand, intellectual properties, patents, and then you have tangible assets, many of which appear to be being sold now.  A lender and buyer might have their hands full in evaluating that, not to mention the production is done in China.  Plus, Mike Wolf's hard work is probably worth a lot more in his mind than what a buyer may be willing to pay.  

In my make believe train world, MTH is still running fine, though.

@Rich Melvin posted:

The numbers have to work. But the numbers may not work for a lot of reasons:

• Asking price too high?
• Business valuation too high?
• Do the financials show declining revenue over the last few years?
• Production logistic issues = high costs?
• Personnel issues?
• Licensing issues?

The bottom line? If the numbers don't work, there is no viable business here.

This is no different than our personal take on big ticket items ie house or vehicle.   Will a "McMansion" work for me or just a two bedroom  house?  Will the huge SVU be workable for family compared to a Prius?  Its really what Return On Investment that works for you, or in MTH case, potential buyer willing to risk their capital.

@Mallard4468 posted:

What's going to happen with the website and access to all the manuals, sound files, etc.?

I'm in the process of archiving the enter site, Manuals, Sound files, Upgrade Sound Files, Firmware, and parts diagrams. It's a bit tedious but the website "scraper" tools help a lot.

@MartyE posted:

On a side note, there was always a rumor from many years back that there was a way to operate PS engines from a Legacy remote in command but due to legal complications it was never implemented and no one would ever confirm it.  Would love to know if that was truly the case. I would assume you, as in MTH's case with a Lionel command base, would still need a TIU but only the Doctor knows for sure.

Marty,

Don't know if you have already seen this on another thread, but the Lionel  6-37146 Legacy PowerMaster  in conventional mode with a Legacy remote has a subset of PS2/PS3 macro commands documented in the PowerMaster owner's manual. I use the PowerMaster with an American Flyer transformer and Legacy base/remote to operate MTH S Gauge engines(PS3). This command set is incomplete as documented, but I suspect there are more commands available!

Mike

@Flyer 52 posted:

Marty,

Don't know if you have already seen this on another thread, but the Lionel  6-37146 Legacy PowerMaster  in conventional mode with a Legacy remote has a subset of PS2/PS3 macro commands documented in the PowerMaster owner's manual. I use the PowerMaster with an American Flyer transformer and Legacy base/remote to operate MTH S Gauge engines(PS3). This command set is incomplete as documented, but I suspect there are more commands available!

Mike

The Legacy Powermaster just has the appropriate conventional operation whistle/bell commands programed in, that's all. It's not operating PS2/PS3 locomotives in command mode. 

@Lou1985 posted:

The Legacy Powermaster just has the appropriate conventional operation whistle/bell commands programed in, that's all. It's not operating PS2/PS3 locomotives in command mode. 

Of course it's not in command mode.  However, there's a lot more than whistle/bell commands.  Page 20 of the Legacy PowerMaster User's Guide...

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

Of course it's not in command mode.  However, there's a lot more than whistle/bell commands.  Page 20 of the Legacy PowerMaster User's Guide...

 

The Powermaster is just programmed to issue the whistle/bell commands from the conventional operation instructions . One touch operation instead of having do press the whistle/bell buttons manually. 

Right, but the net result is you have a convenient way to access many of the features of the PS2/3 locomotives, the object of the exercise.  You made it sound like you just got the whistle and bell, not really true.

Endless speculations without any facts.

It sounds like this thread is morphing into how to control PS2/3 locomotives with Lionel Legacy. It could be an interesting thread but the topic here is "Mike Wolf is retiring" and even though I don't have a dog in the fight I found some of the posts so far fascinating. At least the ones on topic. I would hate to see it be closed out. 

Agreed ! Can we (Gunrunner, Marty and others), start a new post with this info - Controlling MTH Trains in Legacy Environment ? I've got several MTH engines PS2 and PS3 and operate with TMCC/Legacy control. Trying to avoid the duplication and headaches of adding DCS on top.

Kyle 

@IRON HORSE posted:

Ain't that the truth.  That's a universal truth in business.  No bank lends money if the numbers do not work.  I'm sure MTH's situation is complex because they have an established brand, intellectual properties, patents, and then you have tangible assets, many of which appear to be being sold now.  A lender and buyer might have their hands full in evaluating that, not to mention the production is done in China.  Plus, Mike Wolf's hard work is probably worth a lot more in his mind than what a buyer may be willing to pay.  

In my make believe train world, MTH is still running fine, though.

Let's tackle this from two fronts.  The post by Iron Horse isn't quite true.  Banks were forced to lend money to home owners by the Clinton Administration but as that makes this a political post, we'll ignore the facts.  I am sure he is referring to normal business loans.

Secondly, I doubt if anyone in this forum(other than Mr. Wolf himself) knows the corporate structure and relationship of his (what could be) corporations or his personal balance sheet.  For example, did MTH Trains own the building in Columbia and was leasing the land for thirty or fifty years from MW Limited?  Did MTH Trains lease the building and land from Mike Wolf Holdings?  What depreciation schedule was being used?  Were payments made ahead of time or were they in arrears?  Disregard the toy train aspect, look at it as a building, land and investment venture.  Mike Wolf is a pretty sharp guy with I feel certain a competent staff to advise him.  

John

@rattler21 posted:

Let's tackle this from two fronts.  The post by Iron Horse isn't quite true.  Banks were forced to lend money to home owners by the Clinton Administration but as that makes this a political post, we'll ignore the facts.  I am sure he is referring to normal business loans.

Secondly, I doubt if anyone in this forum(other than Mr. Wolf himself) knows the corporate structure and relationship of his (what could be) corporations or his personal balance sheet.  For example, did MTH Trains own the building in Columbia and was leasing the land for thirty or fifty years from MW Limited?  Did MTH Trains lease the building and land from Mike Wolf Holdings?  What depreciation schedule was being used?  Were payments made ahead of time or were they in arrears?  Disregard the toy train aspect, look at it as a building, land and investment venture.  Mike Wolf is a pretty sharp guy with I feel certain a competent staff to advise him.  

John

I was only referring to business loans in general -- I doubt handouts were at play from the government unless MTH got a TIF loan for creating jobs which isn't a direct handout.  Assets plus blue sky (what the name is worth) = MTH's value.  Without their financials none of us know.  It's private company.  We know he sold his property.

As Melvin stated perfectly:  The numbers have to make sense to a buyer.  Period.  That includes market potential for model trains moving forward.  Here's to hoping the numbers make sense.  Cheers!

@rattler21 posted:

 

Secondly, I doubt if anyone in this forum(other than Mr. Wolf himself) knows the corporate structure and relationship of his (what could be) corporations or his personal balance sheet. 

John

Exactly! 

We can speculate and pontificate all we want, but Mike Wolf's gonna do what Mike Wolf's gonna do.  He will be the one making the final decision and we have exactly zero input.

Rusty

Part of the "numbers making sense" in the sale was/is the cost of the real estate, and unfortunately the MTH facility in Columbia, MD, which Mike Wolf owned, has become, from what I learned recently, a very expensive area. Perhaps that is good for Mike in selling and making money, but a hinderance in someone wanting to buy and continue its present use. 

As I am going through refinancing currently, I've also learned that burrowing money has never so advantageous due to record low interest rates (the lower the interest rate the better chance a good accountant can make "the numbers work"). Unfortunately, starting a business in a pandemic is risky, although there are some businesses doing very well. On the flip-side however, I believe that if it was the present owners of Lionel wanting to retire or sell, the Lionel name is of such notable recognition that multiple buyers would lining up ready to bid regardless of the pandemic.

I am still holding out an inkling of hope that someone will buy the tools and dyes, patents, and continue the Premier and Railking lines under a new name, although it would be in a different facility.

@Paul Kallus posted:

Part of the "numbers making sense" in the sale was/is the cost of the real estate, and unfortunately the MTH facility in Columbia, MD, which Mike Wolf owned, has become, from what I learned recently, a very expensive area. Perhaps that is good for Mike in selling and making money, but a hinderance in someone wanting to buy and continue its present use. 

The MTH facility (7020 Columbia Gateway Dr., Columbia, MD 21046) was sold last April. I don't know when MTH has to be out.

"The property had been on and off the market for years with competing real estate agencies and was previously marketed as an office/flex building given the park’s tenant base."

We need to start a simple poll with about 5-6 outcomes to choose from. 

Where is the popcorn emoticon when you need it?   

@GG1 4877 posted:

Where is the popcorn emoticon when you need it?   

I was thinking more along the lines of a regurgitate and beat the dead horse emoticon. 

I'm sure Railking/MTH tooling will live on in some way shape or form. If not as one company maybe spread out through the industry. The big question is if whoever acquires the tooling will continue to use the DCS platform or go with something else.

If MTH does not survive as a whole, I think the best option would be for someone to purchase the Railking line.  Railking produces some very nice semi scale models that are affordable, for people that prefer grater detail then available in some starter sets.  If Railking were to survive and use its current operating system, then DCS would have a sustainable market for its electronics.  Otherwise, I don't see a very bright future for DCS.

I don't think there's much value in the premier line, as Lionel, 3rd Rail and Atlas already produce models with detail that is equal to or greater them Premier.  This includes rolling stock as the above manufactures also make nicely detailed cars.  There are exceptions of course the European models being one that are still in demand and would fit in well with Lionel or 3rd Rail offerings.

But as Rich Melvin states "The bottom line is if the numbers don't work, there is no viable business".

I have a number of MTH products and would hate to see them completely gone, but in the end it's up to Mike Wolf.  Is he willing to negotiate a reasonable price for the company?, Would he be willing to sell it off in parts?, Is he willing to sell off the tooling? Would he want to company to go on without him?

Remember, MTH has its fingers in a lot of different pies, aside from the O gauge offerings, there's Tinplate, Gage One, S Helper, HO and all the building and accessories. One would think that someone would want at least some of this, maybe operating on DCC instead of DCS. 

Only time will tell.

24 pages of gossip and conjecture about this subject.  And it isn't going to change anything.  Seems like it would be time to move on.

OUCH!  My right knee is in severe pain, after having slapped it violently for hours upon hours as a result of laughing my caboose off at all the idle speculation that's been posted since it was announced that Mike Wolf is retiring, thus putting the MTH product line in jeopardy. 

Guys, it's time to return to the real world.  If you have locomotives, equipment, structures, whatever, you want to see produced then you've come to the right place.  Don't think for a minute that the manufacturers, that's made up of O Gauge Railroading advertisers and those who don't, keep a sharp eye out on the OGR Forum so they can receive as much feedback as possible from you guys in order evaluate which product(s) will make a smart investment before producing any of them in the first place?  Of course they do!

Manufactures are in business to make a profit, not to make modelers happy, by releasing their favorite locomotive that may also include their hometown railroad.  It just doesn't work that way.  This is the reason why operating socities and clubs alike will propose to release a popular roadname which hasn't been announced by a manufacturer make their own announcment in newsletters before proposing a specific model and/or roadname, but require X number of prepaid orders beforehand.  They aren't in a position to make such a committment themselves on sheer speculation and send in an order to a manufacturer without proper financing by the members, thus consulting with them to see the feasability of having a model produced in the first place. 

As a rule, manufacturers probably demand that X number of units be guarenteed and prepaid before they will set up production to begin with, however I stand to becorrected by the Legal Eagle Department!

It's apparently still too soon to know the final results what Mike Wolf and MTH have proposed to do in regards to liquidating the remaining inventory and the future of the businees in general.  I'm certain that the employees have been informed but are held to secrecy due to legal matters.  The thing to do now is remain calm and await the announcement which you can be sure will be released as soon as it's made final to the OGR staff as Breaking News!

Happy Rails to You!

OK....this thread has pretty much gone off track enough times that it should have been either closed or deleted a long time ago.  Plenty of speculation here based on nothing other than "opinion" rather than pure facts.  As has been said above, the horse has been beaten to death!  In fact, it has been been beaten so much that it is unrecognizable!  This topic is closed and any future attempts to resurrect it by starting a new thread will result in that thread being deleted.  Use your time to enjoy the hobby and don't sweat over details that take away from that enjoyment.