I just got done setting up a tinplate floor layout. Most of the items are MTH reproductions. I am glad Mike Wolf reproduced so many tinplate trains before he retires!
Assuming that Lionel found out yesterday as well, I wish I could be on their Zoom meeting this morning!!! Howard is going to open the meeting with "well boys what do you think?" I hope they would buy some of their models to produce them in Legacy..I feel bad for Trainland, Mr. Muffins and all the other dealers who invest in MTH inventory!!
@Cincytrains posted:Assuming that Lionel found out yesterday as well, I wish I could be on their Zoom meeting this morning!!! Howard is going to open the meeting with "well boys what do you think?" I hope they would buy some of their models to produce them in Legacy..I feel bad for Trainland, Mr. Muffins and all the other dealers who invest in MTH inventory!!
Just Trains is also pretty much an MTH shop too. This is the issue with putting all your eggs in one basket. My mom used to work for a shipping company that did shipping exclusively for Circuit City. Guess where that company is now?
From my collection...Front and rear cover of MTH's first (as I recall) catalog and cover of the 2000 catalog signed by Mike Wolf himself. Copyright date on the 1993 catalog is 1993:
Attachments
Images (3)
This is sad news indeed. Our hobby would look very different today if Mike did not create MTH. We had many great products for our enjoyment over the years. The part that concerns me the most is the loss of new tinplate products. As others have said, hopefully parts of the company will continue in some fashion. Today is definitely a fork in the road for our hobby. How it continues from here will be interesting.
Thank you Mike for all you did for our hobby. Enjoy your retirement.
Sad for us and for the hobby as the competition and innovation MTH brought to O gauge compelled Lionel to up its game and do more than merely reissue "new" versions of postwar-era engines. Recall that Lionel's first new diesel--a Dash-9, if I recall--back in the 1980s was built by Mike Wolf's company.
This has caused me to reminisce a little about Mike Wolf. In particular, I recall seeing him and his wife at Trainstock a few years ago; I recall him sitting on his stool in the old Yellow Hall (under the grandstand) at York playing with MTH's then-new helicopter car, repeatedly sending the copter up into the underside of the grandstand; and touring MTH's headquarters in Maryland on an OGR-sponsored bus trip. Clearly, Mike really is a kid at heart. And aren't all of us who choose to "play with trains" kids at heart?
I hope that arrangements can be made for MTH to continue in some form after Mike's departure. Its permanent closure would be an immense loss to model railroading and particularly to the O gauge portion of it.
I wish Mike Wolf all the best in his well-earned retirement. I hope we'll still see him around once in a while.
Stay healthy, everyone.
Chris
I just read about Mike's retirement, all I can say is wow!! I have been a loyal customer since the late 90s and have loved the MTH items. I still think DCS is by far the best operating system out there. I wish Mike all the best and hope he has a great retirement. He deserves it! He revolutionized the O gauge model train business and I am sure had to work extremely hard to get it started and keep it going. Hopefully someone with Mike's interests and capabilities and money will be able to step up to the plate and keep it going somehow.
This is a sad day though for all of us MTH acolytes. You always hope something will last forever but it just never does.
Again, my best to Mike and his employees. God bless you all!
When the train market was brisk, MTH came out with some great products at affordable prices. An alternative to Lionel was refreshing to have. It is sad to see MTH close but we must come to realize that that the demographics of those that buy the trains is rapidly changing. The market once supported 8 or 9 O gauge model train companies now Lionel, Atlas, Williams and Menards remain. This is probably still enough to satisfy the market. MTH had a great run and we wish Mike Wolf all the best in his retirement. There will still be trains to satisfy the market needs but the bottom line here is that nothing is forever,
@Dominic Mazoch posted:I had a feeling this was coming. Catalogs were becoming stale. And no LC type system.
Also, there might be something going onin the Far East....beyond the virus.
I'm willing to bet your last comment, while not the sole reason may be playing into the timing and speed of this.
MTH is why I got into the hobby, This broke my heart!
Thank you Mike Wolf for all the joy and excitement you brought into my life. I hope you stay in touch with us all and let us know how your enjoying retirement. An occasional interview with OGR would be great.
please rich and andy if your reading this please take over the company. wow what sad news. I almost cryed.
@Dennis LaGrua posted:When the train market was brisk, MTH came out with some great products at affordable prices. An alternative to Lionel was refreshing to have. It is sad to see MTH close but we must come to realize that that the demographics of those that buy the trains is rapidly changing. The market once supported 8 or 9 O gauge model train companies now Lionel, Atlas, Williams and Menards remain. This is probably still enough to satisfy the market. MTH had a great run and we wish Mike Wolf all the best in his retirement. There will still be trains to satisfy the market needs but the bottom line here is that nothing is forever,
Demographics and the trouble brewing with China are more than reason enough to call it a day:
Demographics - It’s unfortunate but baby boomers are aging out faster than new folks are getting into the hobby. The market is on the verge of a serious stretch of deflation as supply will significantly exceed demand for all but the rarest of the rare. This is actually a very good time to get into the hobby as you will be able buy some high end stuff at low prices.
China - Who knows how this will turn out, but when you are dealing with a trading partner that you can’t trust it is going to be ugly.
If any of us were running a profitable business with the above undercurrents, you’d probably cash it in while there was still a good amount a cash to get.
Even though I did not support MTH by purchasing new products, I own quite a bit that was purchased on the used market and am more than pleased my purchases.
I wish Mike and his crew the best, thank you for all you have done to make the train hobby relevant in the 21st century. No matter what part of the hobby you participate in you have benefited from MTH!
Like others here on this forum, I don't know if I would be in this hobby were it not for Mike. The only offering out there was not near in scale or detail, that we now demand, thanks to Mike for an affordable price.
As far as MTH going away, never to be seen again, I hope not and doubt it would. Outside money thought Lionel was a good investment more than once. With the tooling, parts base and good will and other assets, MTH under different ownership makes financial sense.
I can't see us in 10 years with the absence of DCS, rendering our DCS engines, structures and accessories obsolete. Some of you friends have upwards of 50 engines. If a retrofit was available for $200 an engine,...you do the math. Hopefully this is transition and re-birth, not demise.
Godspeed Mike, and please be on the new board and hopefully Mr. Foster and Andy will stay with a new MTH as well, in addition to the other people that make MTH what it is today.
@Dennis Holler posted:I'm willing to bet your last comment, while not the sole reason may be playing into the timing and speed of this.
And not to start rumors, but could there also be some legal stuff in which it was best for MTH to "go away". Best we do not know for the hobby's sake.
Sunset/3rd Rail might be interested party to get some items.....
Best of luck Mike , enjoy your retirement!
Alex
I am another that wouldn't be in the hobby if it weren't for MTH. Once I have the last items in my order, that will likely be the last train purchases I make. Thanks for all the good years, Mike.
Like many have already stated I'm a little concerned about this as well. First, yes, congrats to Mike, he did a lot for the hobby. We all need a break and can't work ourselves into the grave.
From a consumer point of view who has the majority of his layout from MTH I'm really worried about support down the road. I run the tinplate traditions/Lionel Corp pieces with DCS. So I have very limited choices if things fall apart in the next few years.
A company like Dallee might do very well if they can get the rights to DCS.
Mike,
Best of luck and god bless. Enjoy retirement!
@Catonsville Central Railway posted:But if this is well and truly the end, I just want to comment in response to previous posters...if you think MTH equipment will now be worthless then I don't think you understand supply and demand. We have a hobby full of people who love to run and collect Mike's stuff. Now that MTH won't be making anymore stuff (we assume), the only options for getting MTH trains will be through the second-hand market. Items that are rarer or more desirable will be fetching a premium in upcoming years, just wait and see. See K Line stuff for instance.
But if anyone wants to go ahead and clear out their MTH collections at bargain basement prices, I can speak for myself and I'm sure many others in saying we'd be happy to take the stuff off your hands!
Woody, I agree with you. In the '70s when Lionel was owned by MPC many folks preferred the Lionel PW trains produced by the original company and the prices of those trains went up. I can see the same thing happening here if like you said this is truly the end.
Wow, it is the next day and it still feels like a punch to the gut. I knew that someday Mike would want to retire but I guess I always thought that Andy or someone else from inside the company would take over.
@Oman posted:No! These were 2 significant issues. The first was a locomotive that did not have TRUE Legacy. No way would I be able to double head this locomotive with my other Legacy locomotive. Lionel admitted their error and took it back. The second was a locomotive that Lionel said could only be repaired in China. Well, I missed the memo and the boat. Again, Lionel took it back and refunded me. But, I still do not have these models that I wanted.
Anyway, Lionel prices have gone through the roof. Too much for me. To give context to my statements, I only buy Lionel Legacy and MTH premier.
Sounds like you had some really bad luck. I have purchased numerous Legacy engines over the past few years and have had a significant issue with only one of them. On the other hand, I have purchased many MTH Premier Proto-2 and Proto-3 engines during that same timeframe, and have had significant issues with a number of them.
Pat
Done Control System - I wonder.
@ed new haven line posted:I knew this was going to happen soon. Mike had purchased a home in Florida. His company had not produced any new items in recent years. He will be age 60 this year. We both joined the TCA in 1977. I retired at age 60. I could move from the Northeast any time I desired.
Interesting. 60 is a very early age to be retiring these days.
Pat
I’ve been researching/pondering some mth because Lionel is a little to set in the same Old road names. There goes variety.
Quit reading so much into this. 2 1/2 years ago we put fiber into his building. All the utilities in that office park are under ground and they was not a spare conduit between his building and the street. It was very a expensive project. So you may be thinking Mike was investing long term into the business. That was not the driving reason. Mike said to me “I will get more for my building if it has fiber”.
Mike is retiring , just as he said. He has planned this for years. There is no crisis in China or anywhere else driving this. Mike has spend a large portion of his time every year in China to make sure the product was up to his standards. I am sure after 30 years of that he would want to retire.
Scott Smith
This news reads and feels like a punch to the gut. I certainly understand desire to retire...and having once been involved in the day-to-day operations of a privately-owned business I know it is not easy, very stressful it is. MTH has been an institution in Standard and O-gauge - Mike Wolf's history reads as an American success story - I won't repeat it here as you all probably know it, or will learn it someday. Suffice to say, I have about an equal share of both MTH and Lionel engines and rolling stock, and operate via DCS and Legacy, and I've endeavored with DCS through all the troubleshooting...and the thought of support for that going away is another stomach punch.
From a business profitability standpoint, if a company is viable and profitable then it can be sold and taken over ~ the proverbial change of management. Announcing a company is closing with an ambiguous future of the product line puts a kibosh on products coming down the pipeline as well as consumer confidence in buying existing dealer inventories. For selfish reasons, I hope someone buys the tools and dyes, patents, etc, and keeps the product lines going. And, competition is a healthy thing in business. Having two "heavy hitters", MTH and Lionel, was good for the hobby, keeps everyone sharp. It took MTH a long time, but I recently read they finally implemented whistle steam in the new Premier T1s...something that was a long-time coming...I think they previously had it only on their Premier Big Boy.
This is really sad, and potentially, bad news for the hobby.
I have been reading that a lot of people are concerned about what the future hold for many reasons - the hobby, competition, prince increases, support, World events, etc. Yes, all valid concerns. Though, yesterday evening, Steve Nelson (Mr. Muffin’s Trains) sent out an email that makes a few good points.
I think we need to take this event and see where it leads. In the coming months, a lot can change, hopefully for the better. Myself, having just gotten back into O-scale a few years ago, owe a lot to my LHS and MTH. I have locomotives on order in the 2020v1 catalog that I want to own and run that, though released in years past, were previously hard to find (N&W 611). I am not cancelling my order, and, with that, I haven’t lost hope.
While I know we (the entire world) is in uncertain at times, it has always been uncertain. US and World events change constantly at the drop of a hat. Despite all of this, I am going to continue to move forward with my hobby that I enjoy and I plan (optimistically) to see MTH, DCS, and O-scale continue to move forward also.
Been an avid MTH operator for the last 13 years and this really shocked me. Not sure where this will end up but I'm sure this puts a few more than myself in a state of waiting for what's next. Working on a new layout and I do have a lot of MTH stuff (ie: locos, rolling, lights building...) but was planning on more to finish a rather large personal layout. Hope someone or company can take over the business and keep things rolling. Good luck to Mike. Feeling a little sad for myself and the hobby also.
Congrats to Mike, and Well Done! Cheers!
How to value the enterprise, so it could potentially continue with a different owner?
- Tooling owned by China manufacturer? Any of it owned by MTH - I have no idea.
- Non-standard(?) electronics (but excellent). Neither TMCC/Legacy or DCC? Dealing with electronics and upgrades means deep pockets and commitment.
- Building already sold, so a new building is needed.
- Commitments with China manufactures have to be renegotiated (probably higher, due to risk with a new enterprise).
- Advertising cost, negotiations with new vendors?
- What is MTH sales, and future projections to justify the return on investment?
Sounds like a tough proposition. Yeah, perhaps Menards might take over some of the Railking, and perhaps even put in DCC/Conventional in those locos. Perhaps Lionel would be interested in a few items, and put in TMCC electronics.
Wow! MTH will be missed, the innovation was important to uplift the O-gauge hobby.
@samdjr74 posted:...A company like Dallee might do very well if they can get the rights to DCS.
There are several interesting scenarios to speculate about, and this one makes sense in many ways. I like Dallee and their products, but the hair on Dallas' head looks a lot like the rest of us.
This is certainly a sad development for the Hobby. In echo of many others, MTH is a big reason I rediscovered 3 rail O. My great concern at the moment is with the future of DCS, particularly the WIFI app. Without future updates, the app will eventually become obsolete as operating systems advance. Glad I held onto my remotes.
There were so many things that would not have been offered except for MTH: Mallets, Subways, BIG transformers, all those accessories, a control system that was upgradable, and so much more. Though I only run conventional, my Railking Challenger and Z4000 are the most prized items of the modern era in my collection.
As has been hoped by others here, maybe Menards will be able to make some of Mike's trains, if only the Bantam line for starter sets.
I hope all his employees find success and security in the future in this day and age.
Seems like i remember the A C Gilbert Company demise in the 60's and almost 60 years flyer by Gilbert and flyer by Lionel are still here in abundance. Today most big collectors and operators who own 20 to a hundred engines and are old like me dying and dying out daily at a time when demand is low Mth like Gilbert will always be hear. The only problem problem is parts and repair but the secondary market will solve that. Happy retirement Mike, oh what a great ride you give thank you so much and enjoy your new world.
One of our other hobbies is old houses, so here's something to consider from a similar situation: about a decade or so ago the premier art wallpaper company that replicated historic designs and designed new patterns in the historic style made a similar announcement. Bruce Bradbury, the owner of Bradbury & Bradbury Art Wallpaper, decided it was time to retire and announced the closure of the company. He allowed so many months for new orders to come in and be produced and then it would be over. A couple of months after the announcement, he announced that an employee (or group of employees, I can't remember) had come forward and offered to buy the company. Fast forward to today, Bradbury & Bradbury is still the premier historic wallpaper company to us old house freaks, and their continued success has spawned a few small, cottage-industry type competitors.
Maybe that will happen here. Like B&B, there's a thriving, well-liked company ready for it's next chapter.
Wow this is something I've never expect!! Mike Wolfe is a great guy talked to him at York a few times and he was really nice to talk too. I hope Mike had a great retirement and hopefully either the employees buy him out or the company is taken over by someone else, I have quite a few MTH trains and I love them! I'm not a one brand guy but MTH was always a strong competitor to Lionel (something we always need) I hope the best for them in the future.
Mike Wolf and Maury Klein took great financial risks to advance the hobby, Lionel followed.
I think Lionel leads at this point. However, without those challenges in electronics and design to Lionel's dominance we never would have had those advances.
Thanks Mike. You will be missed.
My best wishes to Mike Wolf whatever the future brings. I agree with the sentiment expresses here that he is in many ways a modern Joshua Lionel Cowen.
One thing I haven't seen speculation on is what the future holds for him. Mike is pretty young (60) and has a legendary work ethic. It's hard to see him playing golf all day. Who knows, maybe after a well-deserved rest, he will start dabbling in some new, less ambitious toy train related adventure.
@Gpritch posted:Why not? If you like it, buy it. enjoy it. Not sure if we can expect everything to last forever.
Fair enough. I was on the fence about a locomotive from the most recent catalog. If it was something I just have to have, I would probably still buy it. Also, my mind set was about locomotives. There's no reason to not buy rolling stock or accessories.
Now I'm pondering my DCS equipment. I have an original TIU and handheld remote. I also have a new Wi-Fi + TIU. If the new TIU dies, then I'm back to the original and no Wi-Fi. If the Wi-Fi dies, then I'm back to the original handheld remote.
There's already a shortage of DCS control devices on the market.
As a big MTH fan I'm sad to see this happen but there is some good that can come out of this in the future. If the business isn't acquired the IP could be sold off. Re-manufacture of PS2 and PS3 boards. The DCS protocol can be developed further or become open source.
