MTH Smoke unit not working

Fan motor failure is common and replacement motors are available from MTH at phone 410-381-2580.

I've never replaced one. Is it easy? BTW, checked out your layout -- WOW! Love the helix!

Mike

Another problem with the smoke units, is the fan spins on the shaft. Check to see if that may be your problem and or a wiring problem to the motor.

Mort

I had a smoke unit fan that quit working, I removed the cover and the fan impeller,lubed the shaftbushing replaced the impeller and spin it a few times with my finger to work in the oil. Replaced the cover and reassembled the loco and its been fine for over a year now.

MTH sells the motors for only $5 each which seems like a no brainer versus trying to rebuild. I like your idea -- perhaps I'll play with the motor after I replace it.

See this extensive Topic with How-To
"Another Smoke Unit Repaired - Final assembly added Nov 6 - pictures!"

So I took my Big Boy to my hobby shop, they diagnosed it as a bad circuit board, and now the cost to have smoke working is a whopping $265 in addition to the $45 diagnostic fee I already paid (in addition to the $25+ shipping smoke unit pack of 5 I purchased direct from MTH after their Service Dept. said it was probably just a fan motor -- and now I have a set of smoke fans in stock with no use). This MTH engine was purchased new in 2004 and now it needs a board in 2011? I paid $699. 7 years of life? Bummer....

I also have my Z-4000 at MTH for service because of a second malfunction in 3 years (the first was a malfunction right out of the box -- which cost me $25 in shipping). I'm starting to get disillusioned with digital technology....

This MTH experience is beginning to feel like the Amanda $1200 fridge/freezer I bought that lasted only 8 years when the compressor went. Guess what my next fridge brand was? G.E. (not Amanda).

...I'm starting to think that post war rebuilts and Williams Trains with simple technology are starting to make sense. Oil 'em, grease 'em and they truly will "last a lifetime". A switch to Williams (from MTH).

Any comments out their? Anyone else getting frustrated with expensive repairs for expensive engines? Any affordable solutions?

In this economy my toy train budget is constricted and I'm trying not to throw in the towel on the hobby. I have a beautiful layout but losing my big Boy and my z-4000 transformer within 2 months are killers, cost-wise, because of expensive repairs. I'm hoping MTH will be fair on the transformer repair -- stay tuned.

Mike

Mike,

Was there more wrong than just the smoke unit? It is a PS2 engine and you probably could have gotten away with just replacing one board instead of both. Even with a 5volt I have replaced the FET for the smoke unit with minimal cost to the customer. Even on a 3volt board. Unless the damage went further than the FET. It's hard for me to say without having the engine in front of me.

I'm not trying to bash this hobby shop as I don't know them and wouldn't do that anyway.

Sorry to hear your having these problems. Hope everything gets better.

I feel your frustration. I've only been at the O gauge thing for a couple of months, and my DCS TIU went belly up. Fortunately, it's still under warranty, but it sure doesn't give me a warm, fuzzy feeling moving forward. The worst part of it is, I bought into digital, so my rig is completely down until I get a resolution.

The problem with digital is that it is, for the most part, disposable. If a board goes bad, you have to replace it. Almost nothing is socketed these days, so it doesn't take much to put you behind the eight ball. Proprietary technology also adds to the problem. There's probably not much more than a few bucks in the board and chips, and you do have to pay for the programming, but it's not like you can pop down to Radio Shack and buy one. There's not much competition - you could make the jump to Legacy/TMCC, but thats a crap shoot as well.

For me, I'll just have to see how it goes. My last purchase was on the "used" market, so I saved 50%. If I have to put money into over the next few years, it won't be so bad. For me, at least half the fun is the sounds, the smoke, and the control you get with digital, so as long as I'm in this, I'm hooked in.

If it makes you feel any better, most hobbies have gone in this direction. I have an off-road RC truck that's more fun than a bucket of monkeys, but I probably put at least $100 a year into parts. One good bash into a tree and I open the wallet. My buddy just got into 1:32 slot cars. He's been running the cars for a week and he's already trashed one of the two cars that came with the set, and the other isn't looking so good either. I'm sure he'll get less destructive as his skill improves, but that kind of stuff adds up. Tires, magnets, and other supplies also take a bite.

Yes, products should be more reliable, but fun costs money

Thanks for your reply.

I do not intend to discourage new guys like you to O Gauge and, you are right, I'm sure most hobbies are going digital. However, sometimes we all need to take a bird's eye view and ask the question, "Is the digital technology worth the sacrifice of ease?" Old lionel trains were very simple technology and lasted forever. Adding sound boards added excitement, but did they also add tremendous service costs and disappointment and frustration down the road? This is the third time my Big Boy has been in the shop since I purchased it 7 years ago.

I run conventional transformer control and have been reluctant to go to DCS or command control for this reason -- I have enough grief in the long run just to keep the trains running and the smoke smoking without fail.

I do own 3 Williams engines and they are flawless. They are not flashy and can be boring compared to digital MTH or Lionel. But they RUN. ALWAYS. CONSISTENTLY and with no issues. And pull as many cars as all the premiums, including Lionel, MTH, Atlas and Weaver. I read an article somwhere that said museums that have model O Gauge railroads use Williams for that reason -- they are reliable and are work horses and just go and go. Day after day. And, without the fancy digital add ons, they are considerably less cost to buy.

On the otherhand, when my MTH Big Boy ran with full smoke and digital sounds, it was the pride of my fleet. The WOW factor gets no better than that. But I am heartbroken that it's broken for what I consider a very short life considering the money I paid for it. And I am angry that I have to fork over so much money for repair.


Mike

Thank you for your response.

This exchange is EXACTLY why I chose to vent on this forum --- because people like you CARE.

I will review my paperwork and, if appropriate, will post a copy of the service tech notes.

As a side note, my experience with MTH Service and parts people has been awesome. I really believe they CARE, too. Sometimes I wonder if I should just send all of my repairs directly to MTH because I've always questioned the compency level of the hobby shop technicians. For example, my nearest MTH "dealer" carries very little product and when I asked them if they were capable of diagnosing a transformer problem they almost SCREAMED "NO!" - so my immediate action was to get a RA and send it directly to MTH, which I did, and I am confident they will fix it without any further issues.

I have a very high level of confidence in the hobby shop I took my
Big Boy to. They are a distance from me but they are good guys and sell a ton of trains. And they have always been fair on service. I just bought my daughter a Lionel Thomas set for Christmas from them-- so the disease continues in the family

After reviewing the paperwork and your response, however, I may very well tap into you and your company for further service if you offer better and less cost effective solutions. I don't mind paying to ship my trains to the right person/shop for repair. Thanks again!

I LOVE this hobby and digital sounds/smoke and want very much to get past this disappointment.

Mike

I asked my hobby shop to fix the smkoe unit. Their response, after diagnosis, was as follows:

"I rebuilt the smoke unit and added the correct smoke wicks and gasket. I fixed the wiring and then tested the engine. I found the smoke motor wasn't running. I tested the motor and it was OK."

"I removed the board set and tested it on my test fixture. I found that the smoke fan circuit had failed. I also found that I could not reset the maintenance screen. This tells me that something else is failing. I removed the smoke fan fets (controllers) because they could cause additional damage to the board. Everything else seems to function correctly."

"MTH doesn't have these style boards but they do offer a new style 3-volt board with the right connectors for the current 5-volt board. It mounts different but there's room inside the tender for it. If the customer (me) decidesd to do this the cost is $225 for the board and $39 for the installation; the total would be $264."

"I assembled the engine and it tested okay except for the smoke."


"I turned the smoke off in the conventional mode and also in the DCS mode because the smoke elements still work and could burn out if the fan doesn't cool them by blowing the smoke."

Could you shed any light on this? It's tech talk and I don't understand it. Could there be something else going on?

Mike

quote:

Originally posted by IRON HORSE:

"I removed the board set and tested it on my test fixture. I found that the smoke fan circuit had failed. I also found that I could not reset the maintenance screen. This tells me that something else is failing. I removed the smoke fan fets (controllers) because they could cause additional damage to the board. Everything else seems to function correctly."

"MTH doesn't have these style boards ...
"I assembled the engine and it tested okay except for the smoke."

Could you shed any light on this? It's tech talk and I don't understand it. Could there be something else going on?

My initial comment is $45 seems reasonable for what was done.

I don't know if "maintenance screen" is some proprietary service-center program running on a PC or if this just means the DCS remote. But I don't think that has anything to do with the smoke fan issue. I agree the smoke fan fets (fets are transistors) should have been removed as was done. What's not clear is why these 25-50 cent transistors weren't simply replaced. Perhaps since 5-Volt boards are no longer available they don't carry the parts for them.

But if it comes to the $264 option, I suggest you wait for the PS3 upgrade kit to come out - allegedly within a year. Then apply the $264 to that so in addition to getting smoke back, you get a genuine upgrade rather than just a repair. I realize smoke was disabled but I'd pull the 4-pin connector to the smoke unit just to be safe.

If your shop isn't set up for 5-Volt component level repair, I recall a recent thread where some guy in Europe had a board problem and a shop here in the states arranged where he could just send the board and save on two way shipping.

Mike,

It sounds like just what I would have done. But it still sounds like if he would have replaced the FET your fan would have worked. But like I said in my other post that it's hard for me to tell you without the engine in front of me.

As for replacing the boards the price sounds right. You could also wait for PS3 kits (it might be a while) it's your choice.

Everything electronic will have it's problems from time to time.

Hope everything goes well.

Thanks for the reply. The cost versus value equation gets much better with a PS3 upgrade! I think I'll wait it out. Thanks for the tip!

Mike