My New Niagara came damaged (no surprise)

I've had a Legacy F-3, Legacy Polar Express, and Bluetooth tower all come damaged this year. I'm beginning to wonder if there is quality control processes anymore. 

I'll stick to my postwar and prewar trains

DonHRadio,  I am sorry to hear about the damaged Niagara.  You say "no surprise", yet I know the frustration of holding my breath every time I open a new Lionel engine.

My Niagara #6013 arrives today.  I am hoping it is good.  Lionel is currently working on three of my engines: two Vision Line GG1s and a CSXF40PH #9999 for a second time.  The VL GG1 #4913 has been back to Lionel now for a third time for binding gears. Now it does not move.  The other VL GG1 #4935 has been run at home under Dean's suggestion, but has not improved in a year and cannot start up  under Speed Step "35" when moving forward without popping my ZW-L circuit breaker.  It is time to either fix the engines or refund my money.

My Allegheny #1604 returned from Lionel and was not fixed by Lionel Service.  My mother went into the hospital after loosing four pints of blood with IPT Disease, I did not test the Allegheny, my warranty expired, and now I am out-of-luck. What good is a trip into service if the item doesn't get fixed. Shuffling engines into Lionel only helps to burn the warranty clock until the day they can deny us service.

Sincerely,  John Rowlen

John Rowlen posted:

My Allegheny #1604 returned from Lionel and was not fixed by Lionel Service.  My mother went into the hospital after loosing four pints of blood with IPT Disease, I did not test the Allegheny, my warranty expired, and now I am out-of-luck. What good is a trip into service if the item doesn't get fixed. Shuffling engines into Lionel only helps to burn the warranty clock until the day they can deny us service.

Sincerely,  John Rowlen

Did they actually deny you service?  Have you made an inquiry with them on this?  I'm surprised that Lionel wouldn't stand behind warranty work even if the clock had elapsed do to your circumstances.

GLAD it was no worse!  ☺

I understand Vision Line is very expensive and supposed to be the best. Buyer beware. It's understandable when paying $1,500 and up that a buyer would be very upset if there was anything wrong with it out of the box.

Maybe the answer is to pay a little more at a train show or local hobby shop that is an authorized dealer, see it, touch it, smell it, and take it for a test drive before buying it.

The last engine I purchased from Lionel was the Vision Line Baldwin Centipede. It arrived undamaged but half the electronics did not work. I decided not to send it back and risk more damage in shipping. Here's my question, what's the since of all the new features and electronics in these engines if it only works half the time? The electronics in our modern world are way out of control.......... From our model trains to our automobiles. Maybe it means I'm getting old who knows. 

I spoke to a new Lionel Service rep about the faulty repair of my Allegheny, and she said that is out of warranty and that there is nothing they will do.  She refused to let me speak with Dean.  I have purchased over $200,000.00 in Lionel and Atlas O in the past three years and this is how I am treated.  I have sent over 40 engines, passenger cars ,and sound boxcars in for service. Some had to go back for service a second time including my SP Cab Forward for pinched wires and then a new control board.  Both Pennsylvania M1a engines needed new boards because the factory board did not operate properly in conventional.  Something is not right in the universe.

I would buy from my local hobby shop, but they refuse to bring in the high priced Lionel engines.  I bought a Nickel Plate Berkshire #765 that arrived at my local hobby shop with all wheel journals broken.  Another hobby shop will not bring in the higher priced Legacy engines, even with 100% deposit.  They don't want the treat of a return if it does not work.  They have since closed.  "The future of Model Railroading."

Sincerely, John Rowlen

Constant heartbreakers! Im sorry to hear. We need Mike R. back..... Nick

rtraincollector posted:

I'll stick to my postwar and prewar trains

First, apples and oranges. Second, if the old stuff is your thing, why are you even reading this? Third, your comment is certainly not helpful and could even be considered to be adding to the customer's annoyance, which is something I am sure he does not need at the moment.

Not helpful. 

Here's the problem in my opinion. The train models of today are very high tech and crammed with all the latest and greatest electronics. Lionel and other train manufactures do the best they can with packaging to be sure they arrive to our doors safe and unharmed. The shipping companies are to put it lightly very rough with the boxes. I believe if we could purchase these train models without shipping most problems would be eliminated.........All the problems come from shipping as the delicate electronics cannot take the ABUSE of the shipping companies.

Maybe...although like most of us, I have a computer, a flat-screen TV, a sound system for it, tablets,etc.,etc.,etc., and all that stuff came in shipping containers from over seas. and all that stuff had to be unloaded, then sent to whatever store I purchased it at.  And all that stuff worked right out of the box, and still does. The Mac I'm on right now is 8 years old, and never given me a lick of problems.

Why can't these train makers apply that same standard to their products? Just asking, mind you... 

Mark in Oregon

Dwayne B posted:

Here's the problem in my opinion. The train models of today are very high tech and crammed with all the latest and greatest electronics. Lionel and other train manufactures do the best they can with packaging to be sure they arrive to our doors safe and unharmed. The shipping companies are to put it lightly very rough with the boxes. I believe if we could purchase these train models without shipping most problems would be eliminated.........All the problems come from shipping as the delicate electronics cannot take the ABUSE of the shipping companies.

I would like to believe your words. The problems with my items were ALL quality issues. My Polar Express motor was missing its wishbone mount and the motor was dangling inside. My F-3 had a motor mount screw tightened too much stripping the frame threads. The bluetooth tower was clearly put in the box bent to the point the blinking light was dislodged and hanging by the wire. None were shipping issues whatsoever. 

John Rowlan, keep us up on the condition of your new Niagara; I am about to order one and am hoping that it is OK; Over the past 4 years, I have sent 4 new steamers back to Lionel for repair and had good luck with their service; am hoping we get more news on the Niagara.

Yes I here what your saying.........So being the combination of poor quality control from Lionel and boxes being tossed across the room from shippers your chance to get a 100 percent working engine are slim to none.

Dwayne B posted:

Yes I here what your saying.........So being the combination of poor quality control from Lionel and boxes being tossed across the room from shippers your chance to get a 100 percent working engine are slim to none.

Wow...ye of little faith...   

Mark in Oregon

John Rowlen posted:

I spoke to a new Lionel Service rep about the faulty repair of my Allegheny, and she said that is out of warranty and that there is nothing they will do.  She refused to let me speak with Dean.  I have purchased over $200,000.00 in Lionel and Atlas O in the past three years and this is how I am treated.  I have sent over 40 engines, passenger cars ,and sound boxcars in for service. Some had to go back for service a second time including my SP Cab Forward for pinched wires and then a new control board.  Both Pennsylvania M1a engines needed new boards because the factory board did not operate properly in conventional.  Something is not right in the universe.

I would buy from my local hobby shop, but they refuse to bring in the high priced Lionel engines.  I bought a Nickel Plate Berkshire #765 that arrived at my local hobby shop with all wheel journals broken.  Another hobby shop will not bring in the higher priced Legacy engines, even with 100% deposit.  They don't want the treat of a return if it does not work.  They have since closed.  "The future of Model Railroading."

Sincerely, John Rowlen

Go over the head of the bad customer service rep. Email dean directly and explain the problem. I would also let him know what the rep said. Dean will get your engine fixed. He is a great guy to deal with.

"The course of true love never did run smooth." - William Shakespeare from  A Midsummer Night's Dream

I received my new Lionel 6-84961 New York Central Niagara #6013 on Friday, October 19, 2018 through UPS.  The box had minor dings from shipping conveyors.  It appears to have been opened by the seller since more tape sealed the top of the carton than sealed the bottom.

The engine was inspected and appears cosmetically good. On inspection of the bottom to check the number of pick-up rollers, I saw that the engineer's side traction tire was off and the other tire shows slight run wear.  The side rods on the Niagara do not use a traditional wrench included with most Lionel steam engines.  The drive rods are fastened with Philips screws.  (I am not sure how I feel about that, but it looks weird.)  Maybe they used Phillips screws on the proto-type. 

My running of the engine has been delayed until I find a perfectly sized Phillips screw driver so I don't damage the looks of the Screw for the Drive Rods.  No tool or screw driver was included.  I appears that Lionel is counting on the buyer to screw themselves with their own.  I will have to read the manual first to make sure I don't damage the engine.  The brake shoes on several of my steam engines are notorious for pealing the traction tires off the wheels. If a brake shoe is a little too close, it can bite into a heated and expanded tire, and then cut it or tear it off. The tire often gets wedged between the wheel and the chassis, binding the engine and slowing it down.

So until another day when I buy a wide size range of Phillips Screw Drivers, I will say Goodnight.

Sincerely,  John Rowlen

D500 posted:

rtraincollector posted:

I'll stick to my postwar and prewar trains

First, apples and oranges. Second, if the old stuff is your thing, why are you even reading this? Third, your comment is certainly not helpful and could even be considered to be adding to the customer's annoyance, which is something I am sure he does not need at the moment.

Not helpful. 

I didn't say I didn't have any modern, just that I prefer my older trains. My comment was meant as with all the problems and your not surprise, Why continue. At some point We as customers need to take back the hobby. Yes the newer engines are real nice, but from what I have heard on this and other forums the broke/no repair parts/etc, When do we tell Lionel/Atlas/MTH etc until you get some good quality control going and have repair parts for what we need we are going to stop buying from you. I personally think that BTO is the worst thing they could of done, Right up there with Lionchief. You as a consumer should not have to wait 1 - 2 years to get an item. Lionchief why can't you get a engine in a set that can be run remotely or conventional, No you need to go buy a Lionchief+ separately to do that. I feel for the original Poster. He should not have to deal with this. He should not even have to repair his own brand new engine. Sorry but with the quality control Lionel and the rest have at this point, to me is completely unacceptable, You should not have to pay $600 - $2500 for a engine and it not come in pristine. 

I don't see how Lionel or any other train manufacture can stay in business making stuff like this. Sooner or later people will say enough and quit buying. As for BTO I do not like it as it has driven up prices where most can't afford this stuff. BTO has to be hurting hobby shops as they have no product on their shelves to sell. No wonder that so many hobby shops have closed their doors. I am still waiting on the scale Polar Express cars that were supposed to be here in July. I may cancel my order and buy a set of passenger cars and make my own. 

John Rowlen posted:

"The course of true love never did run smooth." - William Shakespeare from  A Midsummer Night's Dream

I received my new Lionel 6-84961 New York Central Niagara #6013 on Friday, October 19, 2018 through UPS.  The box had minor dings from shipping conveyors.  It appears to have been opened by the seller since more tape sealed the top of the carton than sealed the bottom.

The engine was inspected and appears cosmetically good. On inspection of the bottom to check the number of pick-up rollers, I saw that the engineer's side traction tire was off and the other tire shows slight run wear.  The side rods on the Niagara do not use a traditional wrench included with most Lionel steam engines.  The drive rods are fastened with Philips screws.  (I am not sure how I feel about that, but it looks weird.)  Maybe they used Phillips screws on the proto-type. 

My running of the engine has been delayed until I find a perfectly sized Phillips screw driver so I don't damage the looks of the Screw for the Drive Rods.  No tool or screw driver was included.  I appears that Lionel is counting on the buyer to screw themselves with their own.  I will have to read the manual first to make sure I don't damage the engine.  The brake shoes on several of my steam engines are notorious for pealing the traction tires off the wheels. If a brake shoe is a little too close, it can bite into a heated and expanded tire, and then cut it or tear it off. The tire often gets wedged between the wheel and the chassis, binding the engine and slowing it down.

So until another day when I buy a wide size range of Phillips Screw Drivers, I will say Goodnight.

Sincerely,  John Rowlen

Screws in the side rods what a cheap way to build a engine. They should have used bolts like the prototype did.

I agree - we need to stop buying their stuff 'til they get their "acts" together.  Based on "Forum" threads and comments Lionel is the worst offender (they blew it when they let Mike Regan out of their box) - MTH comes on as the least offender.  "WE" (as in all of you) need to stop buying until they do so.  SO, quit all the crying and "act with your wallets" - MONEY IS ALWAYS THE PREFERRED VOTE!   BTW - if they close down - sad, but then who needs more trians.

SURFLINER posted:

I agree - we need to stop buying their stuff 'til they get their "acts" together.  Based on "Forum" threads and comments Lionel is the worst offender (they blew it when they let Mike Regan out of their box) - MTH comes on as the least offender.  "WE" (as in all of you) need to stop buying until they do so.  SO, quit all the crying and "act with your wallets" - MONEY IS ALWAYS THE PREFERRED VOTE!   BTW - if they close down - sad, but then who needs more trians.

And they will close down if they don't get their act together, just a matter of time.

John Rowlen posted:

 

The engine was inspected and appears cosmetically good. On inspection of the bottom to check the number of pick-up rollers, I saw that the engineer's side traction tire was off and the other tire shows slight run wear.  The side rods on the Niagara do not use a traditional wrench included with most Lionel steam engines.  The drive rods are fastened with Philips screws.  (I am not sure how I feel about that, but it looks weird.)  Maybe they used Phillips screws on the proto-type. 

 

I don't see why do you need to remove a screw just to remount the tire? It's already where it needs to be, just slip it back on the tread.

Could it be that you need a JIS screwdriver to remove the screws? And, I wouldn't put it past them to have some loctite on them too that may need some heat to break the bond.

John Rowlen posted:

"... I (sic) appears that Lionel is counting on the buyer to screw themselves..."

Sorry, I couldn't resist... 

Mark in Oregon

BTO: Frankly, the mfg'ers don't care how it inconveniences the end user or the hobby shops. If BTO helps them make product at a profit, then that's what they'll do, and "oh well" in regards to any collateral damage.

I'm not taking up for the mfg'ers, simply stating the cold efficiency of their reasoning behind BTO.

Andre

Why do the rods and wheels look so dirty?  Maybe its just the pic....

It is true that I could try to slip the traction tire back on... if the brake shoe is not too close to the wheel.  Remember that there is a cut channel in the wheel for the tire. The thick tire has to go over the high outside wheel edge between the brake.  Sometimes that distance does not  allow the tire to easily slide into place.  Something caused the tire to come off when tested at the dealer. That is still an issue if the tire goes back on.

Sincerely,  John Rowlen

Nope. Once a traction tire has come off, it is at the end of its life. It has lost any stretch it once had, the stretch required to stay on the wheel.

You must put on a new tire.

If you put the old tire back on, it will just come off again... and again... and again

I guess I will have to call Lionel Service every time the traction tire comes off.  At least I should have received a NEW engine with all traction tires in place.

I could send it back to the dealer for another engine that has traction tires on it.  The Phillips Screws on the Drivers are three different sizes.  The Traction tire screw is very small and appears that it could be easily damaged.

Again, there was no tool in the Vision Line Niagara box to remove the driver screws.

This is a NEW engine, just out of the box tonight.  Lionel got me again.

This will be my fourth engine currently at Lionel. They have three of mine right now: two Vision Line GG1 with tight gears and a new CSX F40PH for a second time. The VL GG1 #4913 is back for the third time. Now it won't even run.

Sincerely, John Rowlen

rtraincollector posted:

I'll stick to my postwar and prewar trains

I'm with you, I have mostly postwar and LTI trains. I like them and I can control my expenses on repairs. I've thought about stepping into the 21st century and buy some high ticket Lionel steam engines, but when I read stories like these, I'm reluctant about paying $1k to $2.5k for something that's new, but inferior out of the box.

It's hard to tell with the angle or lighting of the picture, but it looks like the screws are hex head and phillips. ( I just looked at my Century Club Niagara and it uses the same screws on the rods,so this is nothing new on this engine,) I'm really curious why this was not noticed when packing the engine back up after test running it.

Doug

Removing the rod won't help if the brake shoe is too close. You just have to stretch the tire the get it between the wheel and the shoe or remove the shoe. 

If this job is too difficult for you, you really need to find another hobby.

Pete

I'm glad I didnt order one.

Al this money for all this drama ?!!  Too much.

Joe Fermani posted:

John Rowlen posted:

I spoke to a new Lionel Service rep about the faulty repair of my Allegheny, and she said that is out of warranty and that there is nothing they will do.  She refused to let me speak with Dean.  I have purchased over $200,000.00 in Lionel and Atlas O in the past three years and this is how I am treated.  I have sent over 40 engines, passenger cars ,and sound boxcars in for service. Some had to go back for service a second time including my SP Cab Forward for pinched wires and then a new control board.  Both Pennsylvania M1a engines needed new boards because the factory board did not operate properly in conventional.  Something is not right in the universe.

I would buy from my local hobby shop, but they refuse to bring in the high priced Lionel engines.  I bought a Nickel Plate Berkshire #765 that arrived at my local hobby shop with all wheel journals broken.  Another hobby shop will not bring in the higher priced Legacy engines, even with 100% deposit.  They don't want the treat of a return if it does not work.  They have since closed.  "The future of Model Railroading."

Sincerely, John Rowlen

Go over the head of the bad customer service rep. Email dean directly and explain the problem. I would also let him know what the rep said. Dean will get your engine fixed. He is a great guy to deal with.

Are we talking about the same Dean that, when I sent back my VL GG1 because of incredibly jerky operation (I had posted a video here at the time), treated me like the villain?  And only after several emails reminding him that an engine with such problems can't possibly be blamed on the poor slob who bought it - me - did he decide to issue a refund with an email that said something like - we don't think we have another unit that will make you happy, so we will issue you a full refund.  Hmmm..... 

.... oh, and that was AFTER its trip to Lionel service for warranty repair for the jerky operation issue and after Dean emailed to say the issue was resolved/he personally tested it - and it came back to me as though no one had even touched it. 

Here's my two cents on the situation, and I say this as a person who has had about 40% of the Lionel locomotives I've purchased come with defects that need warranty repairs:

Lionel does not have the best quality control but even if it did, tolernaces, manufacturing processes, shipping, and human error will always result in some marginal level of defective products. 

Lionel reads these posts and is well aware of the issues.  It's possible that someone at Lionel is smart enough to connect the dots - dissatisfaction in QC and possibly diminishing sales - perhaps a factor in the move to BTO?  

I've spoken to the Lionel reps at shows and whenever the QC issue comes up, they take the position that there is a vocal minority that is never happy.  To me, that's a sort of rationalization and the volume of warranty returns would bear that out. 

All this to say: Lionel is a business and as such, the QC issue (like any other with cost implications) is an actuarial exercise, as was the Pinto to Ford.  If you keep buying new items (which I'm guilty of doing because the tech advances aren't yet outweighed to me by my frustration level), and the warranty repairs don't amount to a significant hit to cost sheet, then there's little incentive for a capital expenditure to improve QC.  This is a statement about any company ... (see my footnote statement below in blue).