New Lionel Dash 9

Not only that but the truck block itself is too short, making the sideframes look short as well. These need to be updated in a huge way. 

I know a lot of people don't like MTH and DCS but they have the absolute best Dash 8's and Dash's 9's on the market....by far. If you are looking or the detail aspect of them....MTH is what you want for these.

Wow, what a nice pic!! I agree 100% their Dash-9 and-8s are the best. 

Beautiful photo there!  Yes MTHs are great.  Just picked up a new MTH CSX AC60CW and it is incredible. After seeing the new Lionel catalog and wanting some BNSF swoosh scheme power and wanting to try Legacy for the first time I thought this could be a great opportunity, but if these details are not updated I'll have to pass.

They talk about them on the Ryan&Dave show here.

https://www.facebook.com/Lione...eos/538112269956437/

Laidoffsick, what a great photo of the AT&SF.

    Bill T.

Thanks for the link! I thought the Ryan & Dave show and Notch 6 were one in the same but now I see that’s not the case! Great to hear the fuel tank will be updated, however they didn’t mention the side frames. When it comes out I’ll have a look and maybe pick one up. Thanks to all!

If this run is the same as the last one these models won’t be worth the money. The run lacked significant detail and the trucks are awe full looking POSs. Lionel need to redo the trucks and update the tooling in these models or they aren’t worth the money

I started a thread asking this a week or so ago but got no response, so I'll ask again here. When Lionel made these before it was said on here that the shells have a mix of details from both the Dash 8 and Dash 9. Can anyone tell me what those details are? They put the shell on a 4 wheel pair of trucks and call it a Dash 8. They put them on a 6 wheel pair trucks and it's a Dash 9.

Bill

NSPhil posted:

Hello all,

  I know they've mentioned they will be getting the details correct for 8520, but those side frames look dated to me.  I may be interested in the regular BNSF version as my first Lionel/Legacy loco if they are updated...just curious is anything has been said.

Short of all new tooling, there’s just no getting the details right on Lionel’s Dash 8/9. The body is a mash up of Dash 8 and 9 spotting features. It’s three scale feet too short for a Dash 9 and two or three scale feet too long for a four axle Dash 8-40BW (the way Lionel has presented it). If you’d like a Legacy engine that’s reasonably close to the real thing, look at much more recent Lionel models. As Jeff and Doug say, if you want a reasonably accurate Dash 9, MTH is the way to go. Same for the Dash 8-40CW. Atlas has nice options for both the four and six axle models. 

Dash 8 left, Dash 9 right  Notice the different radiator wings:

Dash 9: The Lionel model has a long screen where the “x” panels appear on the prototype.  That’s wrong for a Dash 9. Lionel does have this feature on the left side, but that’s wrong when they’re calling it a Dash 8:

Dash 8, for comparison:

Dash 8 left side:

Dash 9 leftside. The x panels are harder to see, but they are there. Note the four vents under the radiator wing. That’s a Dash 9 feature that appears only on the left. The Lionel body depicts that, but it’s wrong when they call the model a Dash 8. This MTH model dates to 2001. It has the older shortened trucks, but is pretty good otherwise. 

Atlas Trainman Dash 8. Very nice. I’ll fix the pilot:

Atlas Masterline Dash 8-40BW:

This is a shorter prototype. You can’t just change out the trucks and have a model be right. Atlas got it right.

Just for fun and because the Dash 8 series are my favorite prototypes, here’s the Atlas Dash 8-40B (with some custom detailing):

And the MTH Dash 8-40C:

I have fun paying attention to these sorts of things. And I hope it helps you out as think things through.

Best,

RM

Rich,

Thank you for the pics, and info!

Bill

NSBill posted:

 They put the shell on a 4 wheel pair of trucks and call it a Dash 8. They put them on a 6 wheel pair trucks and it's a Dash 9.

Bill

 

That just shows their overall lack of knowledge....

There are 4 axle and 6 axle Dash 8's, standard cab and wide (comfort) cabs.

Dash 9's are 6 axle only, wide cab

Rich,

Great photos and clarification! Thank You Sir! While we’re on the topic, do you or anyone have any thoughts on the accuracy of MTH’s AC44C6M? My limited understanding is that the C6Ms are closer to AC4400s and the C6CFs are closer to Dash 9s. Any info is much appreciated. My casual observation they [the models] seem to be sitting. My LHS said all the horse bonnet units have not been as popular as they thought they would be. I was looking at 4015 or 4017, the regular scheme, however I wanted one in the regular scheme with the DC to AC lettering on the cab, which both road numbers prototypically do not have.

Rich / Anyone,

Can you tell me in your photos (MTH)  the pilots are attached. Are these the scale version 3-2 or do the normal 3 rail version come that way now days? Or did you just attach them? All my older MTH stuff just has a big gap. The MTH model is superior over the old Lionel. I have not purchased any MTH motive power in a while because as I prefer TMCC stuff. But I did order the SP 44ton switcher from the last catalog. Interested because I can just use my phone with the app. 

The dash 9s with the fixed pilots are 2 rail models with the 3-2 wheels changed out. Much much better looking models if you ask me

Yes, all the MTH models I’ve shown are the two-rail scale wheel models and come that way out of the box. They are 3/2 models, but I don’t change the wheels from two rail. The one exception is BNSF 4999, which is one of the earliest PS2 diesels. I fixed the pilots myself. Seventeen years old it runs smooth as silk. 

I haven’t looked closely at the NS AC44C6M models, so I don’t have a view on them. The AC4400 is a distinct prototype, and MTH has credibly done that one so the MTH NS model might just be close. The Dash 9s and AC4400s ride on the same frames. The main spotting differences are the big AC inverter box on the AC44 conductor side and variations in the size, shape, and location of various vents and screens. 

RM

Bit of a side note, but would it kill them to put out a standard cab.  Feels like the wide cab -9’s have been in every catalog the past 20 years.  I love them, but mix in a standard.

Laidoffsick posted:

NSBill posted:

 They put the shell on a 4 wheel pair of trucks and call it a Dash 8. They put them on a 6 wheel pair trucks and it's a Dash 9.

Bill

 

That just shows their overall lack of knowledge....

There are 4 axle and 6 axle Dash 8's, standard cab and wide (comfort) cabs.

Dash 9's are 6 axle only, wide cab

Dash 9’s are not wide cab only 

I just want a real AC44C6M tooling...

NJOGauge posted:

Laidoffsick posted:

NSBill posted:

 They put the shell on a 4 wheel pair of trucks and call it a Dash 8. They put them on a 6 wheel pair trucks and it's a Dash 9.

Bill

 

That just shows their overall lack of knowledge....

There are 4 axle and 6 axle Dash 8's, standard cab and wide (comfort) cabs.

Dash 9's are 6 axle only, wide cab

Dash 9’s are not wide cab only 

The standard cabs ceased with the Dash 8 series.

catnap posted:

NJOGauge posted:

Laidoffsick posted:

NSBill posted:

 They put the shell on a 4 wheel pair of trucks and call it a Dash 8. They put them on a 6 wheel pair trucks and it's a Dash 9.

Bill

 

That just shows their overall lack of knowledge....

There are 4 axle and 6 axle Dash 8's, standard cab and wide (comfort) cabs.

Dash 9's are 6 axle only, wide cab

Dash 9’s are not wide cab only 

The standard cabs ceased with the Dash 8 series.

“C40-9C - Standard-cab, version of the actual wide-cab C44-9CW, and has lower horse power (4,000hp); specially built for Norfolk Southern; somewhat resembles a C40-8.”

NJOGauge posted:

 

catnap posted:

NJOGauge posted:

Laidoffsick posted:

NSBill posted:

 They put the shell on a 4 wheel pair of trucks and call it a Dash 8. They put them on a 6 wheel pair trucks and it's a Dash 9.

Bill

 

That just shows their overall lack of knowledge....

There are 4 axle and 6 axle Dash 8's, standard cab and wide (comfort) cabs.

Dash 9's are 6 axle only, wide cab

Dash 9’s are not wide cab only 

The standard cabs ceased with the Dash 8 series.

“C40-9C - Standard-cab, version of the actual wide-cab C44-9CW, and has lower horse power (4,000hp); specially built for Norfolk Southern; somewhat resembles a C40-8.”

http://www.nsdash9.com/rosters/8764.html

what's left of the standard cabs.  they are being converted to the AC44C6M

It's highly unlikely anybody will do these since they were only built for the Norfolk Southern.

catnap posted:

It's highly unlikely anybody will do these since they were only built for the Norfolk Southern.

I can still dream the dream!

catnap posted:

It's highly unlikely anybody will do these since they were only built for the Norfolk Southern.

I’ll admit I knew that NS had them, but didn’t realize they were the only ones.  Would be cool to see, but agree unlikely.

NJOGauge posted:

catnap posted:

It's highly unlikely anybody will do these since they were only built for the Norfolk Southern.

I’ll admit I knew that NS had them, but didn’t realize they were the only ones.  Would be cool to see, but agree unlikely.

Scaletrains just released the GE C39-8, which is Conrail and NS specific?  so who knows, probably a non starter in O scale.

NJOGauge posted:

 

catnap posted:

NJOGauge posted:

Laidoffsick posted:

NSBill posted:

 They put the shell on a 4 wheel pair of trucks and call it a Dash 8. They put them on a 6 wheel pair trucks and it's a Dash 9.

Bill

 

That just shows their overall lack of knowledge....

There are 4 axle and 6 axle Dash 8's, standard cab and wide (comfort) cabs.

Dash 9's are 6 axle only, wide cab

Dash 9’s are not wide cab only 

The standard cabs ceased with the Dash 8 series.

“C40-9C - Standard-cab, version of the actual wide-cab C44-9CW, and has lower horse power (4,000hp); specially built for Norfolk Southern; somewhat resembles a C40-8.”

I thought I saw there was a standard cab version. Couldn't remember if it was NS or BNSF. Thank you for the information.

Bill

Rich Montague posted:

Dash 9 leftside. The x panels are harder to see, but they are there. Note the four vents under the radiator wing. That’s a Dash 9 feature that appears only on the left. The Lionel body depicts that, but it’s wrong when they call the model a Dash 8. This MTH model dates to 2001. It has the older shortened trucks, but is pretty good otherwise. 

 

Best,

RM

I have some questions about the truck, especially the shortened trucks.

I've measured the wheelbase on the Premier trucks and find it to be 15'.  I've measured the RK trucks and found them to be 11'7".  DieselShop.com calls them out as 13'7".  So I guess the question is:  did early Premier dash 8 and/or 9's use RK trucks?

Thanks for your indulgence in my details.

Lou N

NJOGauge posted:

Laidoffsick posted:

NSBill posted:

 They put the shell on a 4 wheel pair of trucks and call it a Dash 8. They put them on a 6 wheel pair trucks and it's a Dash 9.

Bill

 

That just shows their overall lack of knowledge....

There are 4 axle and 6 axle Dash 8's, standard cab and wide (comfort) cabs.

Dash 9's are 6 axle only, wide cab

Dash 9’s are not wide cab only 

• Sorry what I should have said is Santa Fe dash 9s are wide cab only since that is what we were talking about in the OP with BNSF (which are ex SF)

Yes, MTH used the shorter truck block on their early Dash-9 units, then changed them to the scale length somewhere around 2002- 2003. Lionel still uses the older version that MTH used on their early Premier units and on today's RK units. They need to update those in a bad way, not to mention the blind wheel axle set is on the inner most part of the truck, making them look even worse. 

Jeff78rr posted:

Yes, MTH used the shorter truck block on their early Dash-9 units, then changed them to the scale length somewhere around 2002- 2003. Lionel still uses the older version that MTH used on their early Premier units and on today's RK units. They need to update those in a bad way, not to mention the blind wheel axle set is on the inner most part of the truck, making them look even worse. 

Jeff,

Thank you for the insight.  Somehow I could not make sense of the truck appearance.

Lou N

I know you guys might not like the old tooling but  i kinda like it especially in the 90s and before when all the diesels kinda had a stubby  more rugged look to them like these

i also like the early crew talk sounds how they sounded almost mechanical and robotic

Have people gotten their hands on these engines yet

Laidoffsick posted:

I know a lot of people don't like MTH and DCS but they have the absolute best Dash 8's and Dash's 9's on the market....by far. If you are looking or the detail aspect of them....MTH is what you want for these.

I concur. I had a Lionel "Dash 9" which I gave to one of my apprentices. It was, like MTH's Proto--1 version, a Dash 8 variant. I subsequently bought MTH's Premier C40-8W's in Proto-2 from the new tooling and a pair of C44-9W's in Proto-3. The detail was great. Should have bought the Santa Fe Dash9's when they were released. Unless there's a serious tooling upgrade, it's no contest.

Top two are the Lionel UP patch Dash-9, and the bottom C&NW Dash-9 is the latest MTH.  Not at all a fair comparison, Lionel’s version seems more like a Dash-8 than -9.  The paint and colors look good.  The light colored panels I assume are just primed?  Anyway, that’s where my “praise” begins and ends.  Not really a big gamble on my part as this unit is the non-powered one.  Probably not an interesting model for those who enjoy Lionel’s more recent diesel models.  I do appreciate that Lionel chose to depict patched units for this run.

As a side note some of the MU hoses were broken off and laying down in the box as well as the front coupler spring.

-Brian