The one thing that is the most troublesome to me is the clearance issues where they damaged the wiring and were pressing the capacitor on the RS board into the upper PCB. They were really bowing the support for the PCB when they screwed the shell down, there simply isn't enough room for the capacitor projection to the top PCB surface, it fails by at least 1/8".
Ordered the Pennsylvania Coal Hauler Legacy set on a BTO but decided to cancel based on Lionel's continuing QC issues. 
Glad I did!!! 
Chief Bob (Retired) 
gunrunnerjohn posted:The one thing that is the most troublesome to me is the clearance issues where they damaged the wiring and were pressing the capacitor on the RS board into the upper PCB. They were really bowing the support for the PCB when they screwed the shell down, there simply isn't enough room for the capacitor projection to the top PCB surface, it fails by at least 1/8".
John,
What tender did you buy? The Western Allegheny has a slightly larger tender. Maybe your issue resides in the small Pennsy tender?
Could be, I have the 6-86948, so my comments would obviously apply to that variant. However, in looking at the Western Allegheny tender, the rear deck looks the same height as the PRR model, and that's where all the problems of clearance exist. hard to believe they did different PCB configurations, that wouldn't be very cost effective. The only way to know for sure is for someone to peek inside theirs.
In any case, four of the seven SKU's use the small tender, so the issue is going to be pretty widespread even if the larger tender isn't affected.
After seeing your pictures, I opened my tender (I have not even put this unit on the track yet). You can see a wire insulation issue on the same spot as yours. I didn't notice any additional problems. I have the larger #1288 Pennsylvania tender.
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dwp425 posted:After seeing your pictures, I opened my tender (I have not even put this unit on the track yet). You can see a wire insulation issue on the same spot as yours. I didn't notice any additional problems. I have the larger #1288 Pennsylvania tender.
Well there you go, it's definitely going to bite us all in the butt eventually. I'm definitely taking it apart before even trying to put it on my track.
This put a nail in the coffin for me and Lionel. My LHS stopped pushing Lionel and is a HEAVY MTH Dealer. I now see why Bill tells me all the time to stick with MTH. I usually listen to him but the swinging bell is something I really wanted.
Same issue, as suspected.
The only easy "fix" is my picture above, use one screw and skew the board so the connectors don't clash, and you also avoid the issue of crunching down on the sound board capacitor if you move if far enough. You'll know as until it's not hitting, the frame will rock on the capacitor and not fully seat. Cinching it down pushing on that capacitor is a bad idea.
Yikes! Kind of makes one want to take every new engine apart to check for things like this before putting power to them. Those do look like nice steamers too. I'm diesels only, but these are quite tempting!
What about the access hatch for the volume control?
There have been posts showing the hatch does not sit flush,as though the hinge point is too high.
Is there a "fix" for this ? Is the hinge mounted to the underneath in a way where something could be shimmed?
Maybe the hatch is part of the problem.
The tmcc version had hatch detail cast in with no function.
Looks like they missed the mark on the modification.
RickO posted:What about the access hatch for the volume control?
There have been posts showing the hatch does not sit flush,as though the hinge point is too high.
Is there a "fix" for this ? Is the hinge mounted to the underneath in a way where something could be shimmed?
Maybe the hatch is part of the problem.
The tmcc version had hatch detail cast in with no function.
Looks like they missed the mark on the modification.
I did see that post as well. Might be the capacitor John is talking about that is pushing the hatch pins up? I'm only speculating but it makes some sense.
Yes it makes a buyer feel like he needs to open all engines and tenders up and do a thorough quality control check. While model and toy train owners are often a fairly mechanically and electrically savvy bunch, there are lots of owners who aren’t. I feel sorry for that group.
It reminds me of the first thing we did with sophisticated relays at the power company I worked at in the ‘70s and ‘80s. The task was called ‘clean, tighten, and wire check’
I have no problems with the wiring defect. I’ll just keep a fire extinguisher next to my legacy base.
GRJ - good thing you opened the tender up! I have been eying the Penn. Line West.
Any plans on inspecting the loco?
WhatShouldIBuyNext posted:I have no problems with the wiring defect. I’ll just keep a fire extinguisher next to my legacy base.
🤣🤣🤣🤣
Menards must have been foreshadowing!@
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Why Lionel is willing to let a disfunctional contractor take them down is beyond me. Fire them and regroup even if it means no new items for a while. Lionel simply cannot go on like this.
gunrunnerjohn posted:Goodness, it gets worse! After I removed the two mangled screws, I popped the top and... SAY WHAT???
On the bottom, you can see what is pressing on that wire. FYI, that gray wire is the track center roller! Imagine if those two got together!
Goodness, I patched the wire and figured I dodged a bullet. I also took 1/8" off the mounting sled for the RailSounds board so there's a bit more clearance for the upper and lower connectors. I think the Mechanical engineers at Lionel need to go back for a refresher course on clearances!
I thought I was all done, but I noticed a flash of something metallic looking by the coupler. Better check that out...
OOPS! A little more ham-handed assembly it would appear. I think you can only pull on those wires so much before they pull out of the coupler! Time to dive into the parts box again.
Good grief!
I can hardly wait to see what the inside of the locomotive looks like! The tender should have been a piece of cake to allow proper clearances!
John I would send these pictures to Lionel and see what they say about this, if you have not done so already.
dwp425 posted:After seeing your pictures, I opened my tender (I have not even put this unit on the track yet). You can see a wire insulation issue on the same spot as yours. I didn't notice any additional problems. I have the larger #1288 Pennsylvania tender.
I am “shocked” to see this. Too bad because I thought sales of this engine would be “on fire” given the positive reviews. I hope Lionel’s profit margin won’t be “pinched” because I still like the company.
I will be taking the shell off my PRSL model tomorrow and report back. Mine has worked perfectly, but don't want it shorting out after warranty and no parts available for it. I'll post back what I find. Pressing on the Capacitor like that is really concerning.
Excellent info from the fellas on this forum; makes me appreciate the Lionel locos that I bought that are OK; considering the Mogul and this, Lionel will have its hands full; BUT, the hobby is what it is; salvation is the members on the forum.
Too bad members don't get a chance to test the models before they go into full production. In my profession, before software was released, it went thru a 'pilot' test by a few end users.
Beta testers are sorely needed, that's for sure. Let a handful of end users do a teardown of a new locomotive before quantity shipments, you might save a lot of grief. 
gunrunnerjohn posted:Beta testers are sorely needed, that's for sure. Let a handful of end users do a teardown of a new locomotive before quantity shipments, you might save a lot of grief.
I’ve seen the beta testers... and they are us.
RickO posted:What about the access hatch for the volume control?
There have been posts showing the hatch does not sit flush,as though the hinge point is too high.
Is there a "fix" for this ? Is the hinge mounted to the underneath in a way where something could be shimmed?
Maybe the hatch is part of the problem.
The tmcc version had hatch detail cast in with no function.
Looks like they missed the mark on the modification.
The hatch sits too high because the posts inside are too short. The posts are too short because there wasn't enough clearance for the two boards. There still isn't enough clearance, so they just made one problem into two problems! That's the bad news.
The good news is, once you skew the board like I showed before, the cap is no longer pressing on the upper circuit board, so you can insert some washers to move the hatch hinge down and space the hatch properly.
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Thanks for all this John. Good catch !
Mine is due for next week and because of your findings I will most definitely be opening my tender before running it. I'll post my findings.
I suspect someone will have to open the engine to see if any surprises lurk there.... 
Wondered about that hatch issue.......makes sense now.
Dave
Truthfully, I was so taken back by all the other stuff that I hadn't noticed the hatch until I had the other stuff apart.
Thanks for all the info John !
You are a huge asset to this forum. (as usual)
I'm hoping you have better things to say about the locomotive.
John. Thanks for the insight on this. I am going to open mine up as well.
RickO posted:Thanks for all the info John !
You are a huge asset to this forum. (as usual)
I'm hoping you have better things to say about the locomotive.
I agree; GRJ is most helpful, even to novices like myself.
I think an "MVP" type of award needs to be given to this guy...
Mark in Oregon
Have had a few Lionel and MTH pieces arrive with either with striped out head fasteners like yours or they were in so tight it was near the point of getting an impact gun to attempt removal.
Nice catch on the wire issues.
I've had a few that were pretty tight, and I have seen stripped heads before, but it's hard to know if it's the factory or the last ham-handed maintenance attempt that did it when you get repairs into the shop. However, this was "out of the sealed box", so there's no doubt who did the damage.
I wonder if I should when I do get a new engine, which I am not sure when that will be. I should double check wiring inside a tender, and possibly the Engine.
Well, I can only speak for the last two pre-orders I've had, the F40ph, most folks here remember that one, and then there's the H10. I get a lot of my stuff used and frequently broken, that way it's cheap and I can fix it.
I'm a little reluctant to pop open the locomotive, it was scary enough seeing what was in the tender.
One thing to consider, if you don't have considerable experience with these, it's possible to shoot yourself in the foot. I've had more than one that was a real bear to get back together, almost like it was booby-trapped.
gunrunnerjohn posted:Well, I can only speak for the last two pre-orders I've had, the F40ph, most folks here remember that one, and then there's the H10. I get a lot of my stuff used and frequently broken, that way it's cheap and I can fix it.
I'm a little reluctant to pop open the locomotive, it was scary enough seeing what was in the tender.
One thing to consider, if you don't have considerable experience with these, it's possible to shoot yourself in the foot. I've had more than one that was a real bear to get back together, almost like it was booby-trapped.
Sooner or later one has to enter a smoker to change out the wick.
Hey guys. Lionel needs to get a grip on its quality control. #from the f40ph to the new f's. We buy trains to run and have fun. We spend a lot of money on our hobby and at the price of a new locomotive we shouldnt have to send it back 2 or 3 times for repair. My dad bought the first set made after the war which I still have and it still runs after all these years. These new ones run about 10 feet and need repair. Bring them home Lionel. Ill gladly pay more for a USA made product and I know others would also. A few years ago Lionel said it was only going to build a few special logos like the SantaFe 2 10 10 2 . What happened to that, I just wish we could run the trains we buy instead of working on them or sending them back for repair first.
I think what upsets me as much as the QC issues is the design issues. Clearly, a very rudimentary check would have turned up the component interference issues! I have 3D models of my simple projects, it's really hard to believe that Lionel doesn't have a 3D model to check for interference before manufacturing a ton of a product! When the part mesh on your screen in the 3D view, that's a good indication they aren't going to fit where you think they are! I think the design issues are more troubling to me. If it's not designed right, it'll never get built right. All the QC in the world can't fix a bad design.
Of course, I fault the QC for not inspecting the first article (and a few more), for issues and kicking it back for correction. That's more than holding it up and saying "My does that look nice"! A proper first article inspection is a teardown and checking that the first article is manufactured to the engineering specifications. They should have also noticed that the unit was NOT going together as it should, it's pretty hard for me to believe that nobody noticed that the tender shell didn't go all the way on until you hit it with your hydraulic screwdriver to make it fit! As soon as I sat the frame on the shell I could see that something was clearly wrong.
I really don't understand how stuff like this makes it past even a fairly casual inspection. I know I come from an aerospace background, but what I see here isn't rocket science!
gunrunnerjohn posted:I think what upsets me as much as the QC issues is the design issues. Clearly, a very rudimentary check would have turned up the component interference issues! I have 3D models of my simple projects, it's really hard to believe that Lionel doesn't have a 3D model to check for interference before manufacturing a ton of a product! ...........................
Of course, I fault the QC for not inspecting the first article (and a few more), for issues and kicking it back for correction. That's more than holding it up and saying "My does that look nice"! I proper first article inspection is a teardown and checking that the first article is manufactured to the engineering specifications. They should have also noticed that the unit was NOT going together as it should, ..............
I really don't understand how stuff like this makes it past even a fairly casual inspection. I know I come from an aerospace background, but what I see here isn't rocket science!
I half wonder if the capacitor that's interfering could have been a swap out after the design. An example that comes to mind (wasn't a capacitor) was the Smoke Fluid loader that was delivered with serious problems. I recall Ernie explaining that he had specified certain parts (and built prototype with same parts, I believe) and the factory then changed those parts without asking Lionel if it was OK, or even letting them know they did it. I may not have that 100% verbatim, but that's the gist of it, I believe.
A same value capacitor could have been changed, but maybe it's a bit taller? No one knows that aside from Lionel, to confirm the right cap is in there.
I'm in a similar boat regarding expectations from Quality, but I also recognize we aren't paying for satellite or airplane rigor here, but what's documented here is ridiculous. I have to believe there is literally NO inspection (aside from maybe the "yep, it looks pretty enough" type).
We know the shell should sit easily with no stress, but does the average factory worker over there care or expect that? He/She probably gets more problems from the boss for speaking up than they would get accolades for pointing out the problem. It fit, they just had to force it, and apparently no one could tell(or no one cared - as you said, it probably looked quite pretty aside from the stripped screw head), so it's on to the next unit doing the same thing.
-Dave
Strummer postedI agree; GRJ is most helpful, even to novices like myself.
I think an "MVP" type of award needs to be given to this guy...
Mark in Oregon
He gets my vote andI haven’t bought a Lionel engine in several years.
Here we go again!!
Oh great. I just ordered a H-10 Coal Hauler Set because I liked my Pennsylvania Lines #1709.
My Pennsylvania Lines tender middle hatch does not lay flat, a minor issue, possibly hiding a major problem inside the tender.
The sound on my H-10 stopped working, making a popping sound until I turned the power off on my ZW-L. The shut down command (Key #5) did not stop the engine noise. No other sounds could be heard after the popping sounds started. Would the board problems shown in the photos in this thread affect the sound system? When I turned the power back on, the engine responded normally, … but for how long? With the number of new items that I had to send to Lionel for service, you would think I would quit the hobby.
Lionel just sent me a C&O 2-6-6-2 #2522 Legacy Bluetooth steam engine as a replacement for my new Vision Line GG1 #4913 that went back to Lionel three (3) times and they could not fix the GG1. I told Mike and Dean over two years ago that the problems would only get worse if they did not have someone watching the Chinese factories. At that time, most Lionel buyers had not experienced the problems I had, due to the large number of new Legacy engines I purchased two years ago. Now OGR readers are having the opportunity to experience the dread I feel when opening a new engine that was sealed-in-the-box from the factory. The joyous experience is tainted by the possibility that the new engine will not run.
I am grateful to Lionel Service for their attempts to fix my new engines. I just wish they were always able to repair them. Somebody in the design, production, and manufacturing departments needs a boot in the backside.
Sincerely, John Rowlen
I think the Koreans and the Japanese have a great deal more pride in what they manufacturer than the chinese, who killed my cat with contaminated pet food ingredients used in Walmart cat food. Now I hear TV lawyers pushing a class action case against a blood pressure drug called Valsartan that used a chinese made component which the manufacturer changed the synthesis process used to make this major component of Valsartan. This new process left behind traces of NDMA of which long term use is damaging to the liver, kidneys and lungs. Awarding Most Favored Nation status to china is perhaps the worse diplomatic mistake this country has ever made. A Korean engineer friend of mine warned me twenty some years ago that climbing in bed with china was to sleep with a dragon. j
Hmm, All started with the demise of M.R.? Sort of a direct correlation.
