New Lionel H10 must have been assembled with power tools!

I sit corrected. To stand would take two much effart.  I am rouge faced and embarrassed.

Well I "sucked it up." To my suprise, my 1288 has the boards mounted the same way as the PRSL tenders mentioned earlier so no issues there. (phew)

No stripped screws, just one missing. Ill see if Lionel can drop one in an envelope for me.

However, I did notice minimal wire slack going to the pickup roller on the rear of the tender, impeded the truck rotation.

I removed the speaker and dropped the truck so I could loosen the wire mounts to the pickup roller an rotated them parallel to the coupler arm. The "builder" did not hold them steady when tightening so they spun and tightened on an angle compromising the slack. All good now

My tender hatch was flush on one side and not the other. As John stated the problem is with the mounting posts. Mine was close, not enough room for a washer of any kind so I just backed off the mounting screw on the high side a turn and snugged the flush side screw, looks good now.

Now the scary part. I decided I would give the drive wheels a spin and see if Lionel is still using backdrivable gearsets.

When holding the loco upside down and rotating the wheels I hear a grinding noise, sounds like something is rubbing on the flywheel encoder. When the loco is upright, no rubbing.  If John won't open this loco, no way I'm gonna remove a single screw.

I take my flashlight and peer into the openings underneath the rear of the loco. I can just see one corner of the flywheel and notice the wires for the I.R. drawbar pass in close proximity to the bottom of the flywheel. Theres a fair amount of slack in the I.R. wires so I gently pull them out towards the drawbar. No more rubbing noise, so I'm leaving well enough alone until someone shows how bad it is( or isn't) when you remove the shell. How often am I gonna run it upside down anyway??

All in all this thing has superb slow speed control, and is easily one of the smoothest runners in my fleet. hopefully its stays that way. I wanna figure out a way to get some  widow glazing on those split side windows.

RickO posted:

Well I "sucked it up." To my suprise, my 1288 has the boards mounted the same way as the PRSL tenders mentioned earlier so no issues there. (phew)

No stripped screws, just one missing. Ill see if Lionel can drop one in an envelope for me.

However, I did notice minimal wire slack going to the pickup roller on the rear of the tender, impeded the truck rotation.

I removed the speaker and dropped the truck so I could loosen the wire mounts to the pickup roller an rotated them parallel to the coupler arm. The "builder" did not hold them steady when tightening so they spun and tightened on an angle compromising the slack. All good now

My tender hatch was flush on one side and not the other. As John stated the problem is with the mounting posts. Mine was close, not enough room for a washer of any kind so I just backed off the mounting screw on the high side a turn and snugged the flush side screw, looks good now.

Now the scary part. I decided I would give the drive wheels a spin and see if Lionel is still using backdrivable gearsets.

When holding the loco upside down and rotating the wheels I hear a grinding noise, sounds like something is rubbing on the flywheel encoder. When the loco is upright, no rubbing.  If John won't open this loco, no way I'm gonna remove a single screw.

I take my flashlight and peer into the openings underneath the rear of the loco. I can just see one corner of the flywheel and notice the wires for the I.R. drawbar pass in close proximity to the bottom of the flywheel. Theres a fair amount of slack in the I.R. wires so I gently pull them out towards the drawbar. No more rubbing noise, so I'm leaving well enough alone until someone shows how bad it is( or isn't) when you remove the shell. How often am I gonna run it upside down anyway??

All in all this thing has superb slow speed control, and is easily one of the smoothest runners in my fleet. hopefully its stays that way. I wanna figure out a way to get some  widow glazing on those split side windows.

I did notice the lack of slack but mine wasn't too bad. I'm going to take your advice and give it a bit more room.

Thanks for the advice!

I'm also glad you finally took it out of the box and it is mostly fine. They are great little engines, one of the smartest and smoothest in my fleet. I hope these little guys run for many years to come.

Took her apart to make sure we didn't have any lingering issues. I was very pleased with what I found. The same care that was taken in my tender seems to have been taken in the engine itself. Here are a few shots for those who asked:

Hope this helps guys.

I have the she'll off for the night as I'm on dad duties so if anyone needs anything in detail let me know because tomorrow I will be closing it up.

RickM46 posted:

Daniel, do you have a date of manufacture on your Allegheny?? and what LHS you bought it from??

Rick,

My date code and specific model # is below:

My LHS is Ready To Roll Trains in Miami FL. They sell everything from G - Z and things you don't know you will ever need, he may have lol.

Bill is a great guy and has owned and operated since the early 90's if I am not mistaken. He loves trains and a soft spot for O gauge IMO, don't tell him I said that! I don't think he ordered any for stock though, I pre-ordered and I believe one other person down here did as well but he is still worth a shot, knowing him he may know how to get one.

They are on holiday hours tomorrow (Sunday) so I think they open at 10 or maybe 11. I think Google has a photo of his hours sign.

Hope this helps!

Wow Daniel!  Looks like you might need 3 hands to get those wires back under the boiler LOL!

I curious what could have been rubbing the flywheel on mine when I held it upside down. Possibly related to the I.R. wires as adjusting them made it stop.

Is there a wire tie or something underneath the can motor involving the I.R. wires? Or is it just that plug I can see going into the board on the end of the motor. I really don't want to open it up if I don't have to.

At least with the smoke and bell features being mounted under the shell theres no "lining them up" needed.

RickO posted:

Wow Daniel!  Looks like you might need 3 hands to get those wires back under the boiler LOL!

I curious what could have been rubbing the flywheel on mine when I held it upside down. Possibly related to the I.R. wires as adjusting them made it stop.

Is there a wire tie or something underneath the can motor involving the I.R. wires? Or is it just that plug I can see going into the board on the end of the motor. I really don't want to open it up if I don't have to.

At least with the smoke and bell features being mounted under the shell theres no "lining them up" needed.

Hey Rick,

I plan to use gravity to help close this baby up. Fingers crossed that is lol!

So here is what is down there:

The bundle being held by the clip under the motor contains the IR tether (they pass to the outside of the engine just under the firebox glow board connector. The angle of the picture does not help you see.) you mentioned but it also has the firebox glow, Run/Prog. and smoke switches as well. Mine seem to have slack on the board side but are fairly snug to the frame when they travel under the motor.

Indeed not having to deal with the smoke units and swinging bell mechanism was definitely a relief.

Hope this help my friend.

Wow again Daniel!  Thanks for the photo of the shipping box with the DOM!! 

Just one question regarding the whistle: is it the same as the one in Sandjams videos??

Glad you went the whole nine yards and took the boiler off!!  Takes away the mystery of what is under the hood.  In addition, I am impressed with the thoroughness of your photos.    Looks like 4 screws hold the boiler on???

Just some ideas on placement of the wiring when you lower the boiler back onto the frame (maybe suspend it some inches over the frame to allow placement of the wiring): I would try to keep wiring away from the reservoirs of the smoke units if possible; I noticed wiring around the flywheel in pictures 5, 12, 14 - maybe check they are clear of it. 

I am interested in RickO's questions too.

Since I am from Pa, I have my eyes on the Allegheny.  Thanks a bunch!!

My Pennsylvania Lines #1709 with Lines West Tender is a nice running engine.  The sound has had an issue of popping and crackling, but after I add a YLB battery I expect that problem to disappear.

I purchased another H-10, Western Allegheny #85, so I would have a backup Lines West Tender if I have problems with the YLB installation.  It looks like I will need to buy the Lionel battery cable that is required in the installation.

If anyone has pictures of a YLB installation on the H-10, I would like to see them.  A description of how to hook up the battery would be helpful.

Sincerely, John Rowlen

John Rowlen posted:

My Pennsylvania Lines #1709 with Lines West Tender is a nice running engine.  The sound has had an issue of popping and crackling, but after I add a YLB battery I expect that problem to disappear.

 

No crackling but my 1288 tender was very sensative to any slightly dirty areas of my fastrack and would intermittently drop sound over turnouts. Railsounds makes a pop when it loses power.

I applied some electrically conductive oil to the pickup roller pins, ran the locomotive a bit and the problem seems to have gone away.

Maybe these rollers have some contamination or something between the pin and roller from manufacturing.

I picked up some Bachmann EZ lube conductive oil a couple years ago after a forum recommendation. I use it on anything with pickup rollers. It  alsp stops flickering from passenger cars and cabooses and it eliminates any squeaking from rollers as well.

Atlas also makes a conductive oil.

Fwiw ,Atlas turnouts are notorious for power dropouts.

Some conductive oil may be an easy first step . Have you opened your tender to make sure there are no bare wires possibly causing the issue?

Here's another data point:

The tender of my PRR Lines West #7109 (6-85386) (DOM: 8-31-2018) doesn't show any issues. No stripped or over-tightened screws, the hatches on the tender deck sit properly, and all wires appear undamaged.

RickM46 posted:

Wow again Daniel!  Thanks for the photo of the shipping box with the DOM!! 

Just one question regarding the whistle: is it the same as the one in Sandjams videos??

Glad you went the whole nine yards and took the boiler off!!  Takes away the mystery of what is under the hood.  In addition, I am impressed with the thoroughness of your photos.    Looks like 4 screws hold the boiler on???

Just some ideas on placement of the wiring when you lower the boiler back onto the frame (maybe suspend it some inches over the frame to allow placement of the wiring): I would try to keep wiring away from the reservoirs of the smoke units if possible; I noticed wiring around the flywheel in pictures 5, 12, 14 - maybe check they are clear of it. 

I am interested in RickO's questions too.

Since I am from Pa, I have my eyes on the Allegheny.  Thanks a bunch!!

Hey RickM,

Yes it is the same whistle from what I can hear. I will see if I can attach a video, if not a Google share link may have to do.

Thanks for the compliments, I try to help as best I can, my real interest lies on the inside of these engines lol the trains are just a cool plus, taking them apart is always something I do to all of my engines.

The boiler is back on the frame and is running down the track, the wires weren't too bad but a few did try and snag on the boiler and a few need to be pushed to one side of the whistle steam smoke unit, once I noticed where the cables where hitting I adjusted their placements and everything went together like a glove. Four screws is correct! Two up front and two just behind the rear drivers. Done.

Hope this helps!

https://photos.app.goo.gl/ZepVxFQezJLUPwQn8

John Rowlen posted:

My Pennsylvania Lines #1709 with Lines West Tender is a nice running engine.  The sound has had an issue of popping and crackling, but after I add a YLB battery I expect that problem to disappear.

Not sure the battery will cure the popping and crackling, that sounds like a problem that should be addressed.

Does the sound do that even with the locomotive stopped?

Thanks a million Daniel!!  Your video was excellent!!

John, you'll probably like this idea.  My idea of a "Legacy YLB" version.  Connect the one wire to track power and plug the connector into the connector on the RS board.  There's only one connector of the right size, so it shouldn't be too hard to install.

Daniel, thanks a million for all the info above and the video of the whistle!! 

Gunrunner John,  Give the "Legacy YLB" a name, and give it a Product number.  Would Hennings sell these?  Do all Legacy Steam engines have this RS Board socket?  I have two YLB I purchased from Hennings already that I need to prepare for installation with the battery cable plug.  

My sound issue on the Pennsylvania Lines H-10 I believe is caused by the constant drop in sound as the engine goes over my #5 Atlas switches.  My VL GG1 #4935 and VL Big Boys have the same problem.  I have tried to power the center rails on my Atlas switches, (soldered direct wire)  but it did not cure the problem on all engines.  Atlas has a metal wire staple underneath the switches that I thought gave power to the center rail to fill the gap..  Those connections must not be secured and making contact. I have the newly designed Atlas switches (Well I think I do. You never know what a hobby store is sending you.) 

Sincerely, John Rowlen

AFAIK, all the RS Lite boards used for Legacy steam have the battery jack.  Jon Z. made the same statement, and if anyone knows, it's him.

Once I get some more stock, I'll probably make more of those and package them.  I'm waiting on another order of them from China, then I have to do my add-on assembly work.

Gunrunner John,  So when Lionel said they were discontinuing the battery cable in the new engnines, they were expecting the buyer to order cables if they wanted them.  The jack socket for the cable is still in the new engines. Yes?  No?

Thanks, John Rowlen

Yep, battery jack is still there, and it works just fine in my H10, I dropped one of those creations into it, nice and easy install.

The battery connection is circled, it's a standard feature of the RS-Lite audio board.

I am not sure that Lionel plans to make battery cables as available parts.  I called yesterday and Dean and the service rep could not find a battery cable suitable for the H10 Steam engine.

I need the battery support to go over my Atlas O #5 Double-slip Switches and double 90-degree cross-overs.

I just received a Lionel 6-85176 C&O Legacy USRA 2-6-6-2 #1522 and it has white paint on the top of the side walkway and detail parts off the front of the boiler.  This engine was sent to me by Lionel Service as a replacement for my Vision Line GG1 #4913 that Lionel worked on three (3) different times and could not get to work properly.  (I believe that Lionel saw this engine since they sent it to me.)   I tried calling Lionel at 3:30 P.M. on Friday, December 7, 2018, but the phone message said the service people would be busy for one hour.

I have not run the engine because this 6-85176 engine is not acceptable.  Lionel sent me my Allegheny #1604 from service. but it does not run properly, and the warranty has expired.  When is enough, really enough?

Sincerely, John Rowlen

John Rowlen posted:

I have not run the engine because this 6-85176 engine is not acceptable.  Lionel sent me my Allegheny #1604 from service. but it does not run properly, and the warranty has expired.  When is enough, really enough?

Sincerely, John Rowlen

That is just awful. 

As to your question: I guess that's up to each of us as consumers to decide.

Mark in Oregon

PS: I'm loving my simple Post War stuff more all the time...

John Rowlen posted:

I am not sure that Lionel plans to make battery cables as available parts.  I called yesterday and Dean and the service rep could not find a battery cable suitable for the H10 Steam engine.

I need the battery support to go over my Atlas O #5 Double-slip Switches and double 90-degree cross-overs.

I just received a Lionel 6-85176 C&O Legacy USRA 2-6-6-2 #1522 and it has white paint on the top of the side walkway and detail parts off the front of the boiler.  This engine was sent to me by Lionel Service as a replacement for my Vision Line GG1 #4913 that Lionel worked on three (3) different times and could not get to work properly.  (I believe that Lionel saw this engine since they sent it to me.)   I tried calling Lionel at 3:30 P.M. on Friday, December 7, 2018, but the phone message said the service people would be busy for one hour.

I have not run the engine because this 6-85176 engine is not acceptable.  Lionel sent me my Allegheny #1604 from service. but it does not run properly, and the warranty has expired.  When is enough, really enough?

Sincerely, John Rowlen

Did you have the option of just a full refund on the GG1 instead of a replacement with another engine?  I would do that if possible.

I would think anything coming from Lionel Service is going to be a refurbished model.  Unless they told you it was brand new never out of the box.

Lionel did not offer me my money back on the Vision Line GG1 that they could not fix after three tries.

I had to pick from a list of engines for the replacement for my Vision Line GG1 #4913.  I don't know how Lionel could have offered the C&O 2-6-6-2 #1522 unless they received a few product samples from the factory.  The list became smaller as engines were displayed over the two week period I used to decide. 

A replacement engine because they cannot fix the first NEW Vision Line engine, should be a NEW engine.  You would think they would go out of their way to make sure the engine I received was PERFECT.

Sincerely, John Rowlen

John Rowlen posted:

Lionel did not offer me my money back on the Vision Line GG1 that they could not fix after three tries.

I had to pick from a list of engines for the replacement for my Vision Line GG1 #4913.  I don't know how Lionel could have offered the C&O 2-6-6-2 #1522 unless they received a few product samples from the factory.  The list became smaller as engines were displayed over the two week period I used to decide. 

A replacement engine because they cannot fix the first NEW Vision Line engine, should be a NEW engine.  You would think they would go out of their way to make sure the engine I received was PERFECT.

Sincerely, John Rowlen

On such an expensive engine as the gg1 they should have refunded your money.  Big miss for Lionel.. you gave them every chance to fix it.  Sorry for your disappointment.  

Maybe a bit late to the party.  But @Daniel J. Gonzalez , did you happen to count out the gear ratio while you had the shell off?  (I really wish the manufacturers would make this information public.  It has sooo much to do with how well a loco runs!)

Also, did we ever determine whether the gears were "back drivable" or not?  i.e., can you turn the motor by turning the wheels?  Sometimes you can tell this by looking at the pitch of the worm gear on the motor shaft.  If the threads are more "diagonal" it's usually back-drivable.  But I couldn't find any exploded photos of these locos on the Lionel support (replacement parts) website.

Thanks so much for opening her up and sharing photos!!

Ted S posted:

Maybe a bit late to the party.  But @Daniel J. Gonzalez , did you happen to count out the gear ratio while you had the shell off?  (I really wish the manufacturers would make this information public.  It has sooo much to do with how well a loco runs!)

Also, did we ever determine whether the gears were "back drivable" or not?  i.e., can you turn the motor by turning the wheels?  Sometimes you can tell this by looking at the pitch of the worm gear on the motor shaft.  If the threads are more "diagonal" it's usually back-drivable.  But I couldn't find any exploded photos of these locos on the Lionel support (replacement parts) website.

Thanks so much for opening her up and sharing photos!!

 

Hi Ted,

Not late at all my friend!

The motor CAN be moved by turning the wheels. I did not count the gears so I can't help you with the gear ratio. I don't have a need to pull the shell off again but if, and when, I do I can definitely post photos and info on my findings, again I don't know when this will be. Maybe someone else has plans to go under the hood sooner than I plan on doing so.

Hope this helps!

RickM46 posted:

Before this thread gets closed, I would like to weigh in a bit.

I saw a documentary some years ago on CBS about factories in China; put on at the time that toxic pharmaceuticals were entering the country. 

After seeing it, I am sympathetic to Lionel and its design and specification engineers.  At that time, a client cannot enter a factory and inspect the process; a factory's workers may put in 18 hour days to make an order delivery; some fall asleep exhausted at their work stations; the factories are akin to our own at the turn of the 19th to 20th century (ours also went thru an evolutionary process) ; the drive is to complete the order on time.

I mean no offense to the Chinese culture, but precision and quality are not up front yet; it is what it is at this time.  I knew this before buying Lionel and am thankful for Lionel warranty support and will still stick with Lionel.

I watched a video posted on youtube by a forum sponsor today.  The owner of the model train company walked around and showed the inside of the "factory".  Looked to be quite a few floors up in a building. And it was pitiful.   All the workers sitting on short plastic chairs and never even looked up.  They did have a "test track",  a half sheet of plywood with some track attached leaning against the wall. We are lucky that anything we get works.  Sad thing is they probably cleaned it up and had their happy faces on.

Jim