New Lionel H10 must have been assembled with power tools!

Before this thread gets closed, I would like to weigh in a bit.

I saw a documentary some years ago on CBS about factories in China; put on at the time that toxic pharmaceuticals were entering the country. 

After seeing it, I am sympathetic to Lionel and its design and specification engineers.  At that time, a client cannot enter a factory and inspect the process; a factory's workers may put in 18 hour days to make an order delivery; some fall asleep exhausted at their work stations; the factories are akin to our own at the turn of the 19th to 20th century (ours also went thru an evolutionary process) ; the drive is to complete the order on time.

I mean no offense to the Chinese culture, but precision and quality are not up front yet; it is what it is at this time.  I knew this before buying Lionel and am thankful for Lionel warranty support and will still stick with Lionel.

Hey Guys, I opened up my PRSL H10 tender today to check it.

1.  No screws were stripped or overtightened.  They were tightened correctly.

2.  No wires were pinched or damaged.

3.  The Tender shell falls right onto the frame as it should.  Nothing pushing on it or binding.

4.  When I visually checked,  the Capacitor will not touch anything, there is plenty of room above it.

So here is what is different than Johns.  I noticed in his pic the board is flipped around from what mine is.  The capacitor is on the other side, where there are things above it.  On mine its on other side where there is nothing above it.  See pics below.  I did not look close but can the board be flipped around in its holder?

So maybe a factory assembly issue?  Or is it the specific tender shell design?

So I am good and no issues on mine.

shawn posted:

Hmm, All started with the demise of M.R.? Sort of a direct correlation.

While we all know what you mean, you really should change that to departure! 

Mike R is alive and well (hopefully, at least to the best of my knowledge), he is just no longer at Lionel.

And for all we know, it could have been this exact situation (in general, for other products, obviously) that caused that departure.

In the world of Icebergs and Titanics, any individual trying to take on the way things work over there will be the ship, not the large ice cube. 

At least in the world of model trains.... not enough volume to make any "demands" of the factory, apparently..... or it would add so much additional cost that the importers don't do it. (the factories are not likely going to just voluntarily "step up" their quality for free when they see no perceived issue with how they build things.  Why would the consider it an issue?  The orders keep coming for these low volume items they can hardly be bothered making, with the level of quality they currently apply to the work.)

Well I took my Western Allegheny Tender apart today and I must say, mine had no issues at all. No sign of clearance issues and absolutely no pinched wires. I didn't even see a way that couldn't be possible with the room this tender has inside. Here are the shots I took:

I have to study the boiler a bit to see how to take it apart. I see the front two screws in the cylinder castings but the back of the engine has me a bit cautious. I decided to run the engine after seeing the inside of the tender OK and everything ran fine. I am very satisfied so far.

And for those that have had smoke unit issues, I believe the issue lies in that the manual makes you believe you should put 20 drops of fluid in both the main tank as well as the whistle tank. I believe that is a little misleading. I haven't confirmed this but I am pretty sure the whistle unit is much smaller than the main. I put about 10 drops in and it smoked like crazy and as a result didn't add any more. When I take the engine apart I will confirm if my hunch is correct.

Thanks!

It looks like there are all kinds of designs and this may only affect certain models.  Look at the differences in the board layouts in John's, mine and your tenders.  All different.

It would appear in Daniel's tender that the larger board is positioned closer to the speaker and in Sean's tender it is positioned further from the speaker.

Thanks Guys.  Appreciate your efforts to help navigate this mystery.

Dave

Dave45681 posted:

I half wonder if the capacitor that's interfering could have been a swap out after the design.  An example that comes to mind (wasn't a capacitor) was the Smoke Fluid loader that was delivered with serious problems.  I recall Ernie explaining that he had specified certain parts (and built prototype with same parts, I believe) and the factory then changed those parts without asking Lionel if it was OK, or even letting them know they did it.  I may not have that 100% verbatim, but that's the gist of it, I believe.

A same value capacitor could have been changed, but maybe it's a bit taller?  No one knows that aside from Lionel, to confirm the right cap is in there.

Since it's the same one that's on all the RailSounds Lite boards, and also the same size, that's really unlikely.  I'm 99.98% sure that cap was that size when they put the prototype together.   That board is a standard board, not a custom one for this build.

Sandjam, maybe a different assembly line.

Those pictures are interesting, I'll have to see if there's enough "rope" to turn that board around.  It looks like they may have just stuck the board in any way it fit, and never thought about it after that.  Since at least one other person had the same type of wire damage as mine, it's not like it was an isolated case.

Update:  Not enough slack to turn the board around in mine, so something has changed!

Daniel, 

I see your tender middle hatch is raised up like my Pennsylvania Lines #7109 tender hatch. It could be the way the wire hinge is bent for the hatches on the Lines West Tenders.

Thank you for the pictures of your tender inside wiring. It is orderly and appears well done.  I have voiced my concerns to Dean that some of my engines purchased in the last two years, arrived with issues that looked like a disgruntled employee messed up the engine.  I have received engines with pinched wires in the nose of the engine: C&O Allegheny #1604, Southern Pacific Cab Forward, ATSF 4-8-4 with no battery cable, etc.  I was told that the Chinese factory workers prize their jobs and would never tamper with an engine … knowingly.  It is difficult to understand how pinched wires occur if the engine has been well designed.  The skill and care of the factory workers are the only variables that can possibly account for the differences in the photos in this thread.  All pictures are real … all problems annoying.  I am waiting for my sound to finally quit.

Sincerely, John Rowlen

John the person building that train, it was probably Monday morning and he or she did not feel like working or Friday afternoon and couldn't wait to get home totally did not care about there JOB!

shawn posted:

Hmm, All started with the demise of M.R.? Sort of a direct correlation.

Direct Correlation? Not sure of the direct or implied meaning to that comment, but maybe more simply MR saw the writing on the wall.  I can only guess that MR saw what the Lionel group had or did not have to work with going forward and did not like what he saw. The operational and financial limitations placed on a division by its outside ownership can make it a difficult and the unpleasant place to work in both short and long term. 

I agree with those that said Lionel needs better oversight on factory work or better vetting and performance contracts when selecting a manufacturer.  Do HO or N manufacturers have these type of quality issues?

gunrunnerjohn posted:

..............

Update:  Not enough slack to turn the board around in mine, so something has changed!

Is it just the wires for the two conductor connector near the top right in the pic(red(or maybe orange) and black)?  If they weren't routed through what looks like a cable clamp on the frame, might they reach?  (though I am guessing if they would you would already have done it since you have taken so many more engines apart that I have)

It looks like you got "heads" and Sean got "tails" when the assembler flipped the coin on which way they oriented the board when they snapped it in.

Since this is a standard board, is it normally found in the holder in the same orientation on other engines (larger cap normally closer to the holder's screw holes?)?  This could just be one of the first tight enough spaces where it actually makes a difference due to clearance above?

-Dave

gunrunnerjohn posted:

I think what upsets me as much as the QC issues is the design issues.  Clearly, a very rudimentary check would have turned up the component interference issues!  I have 3D models of my simple projects, it's really hard to believe that Lionel doesn't have a 3D model to check for interference before manufacturing a ton of a product!  When the part mesh on your screen in the 3D view, that's a good indication they aren't going to fit where you think they are!  I think the design issues are more troubling to me.  If it's not designed right, it'll never get built right.  All the QC in the world can't fix a bad design.

Of course, I fault the QC for not inspecting the first article (and a few more), for issues and kicking it back for correction.  That's more than holding it up and saying "My does that look nice"!   I proper first article inspection is a teardown and checking that the first article is manufactured to the engineering specifications.  They should have also noticed that the unit was NOT going together as it should, it's pretty hard for me to believe that nobody noticed that the tender shell didn't go all the way on until you hit it with your hydraulic screwdriver to make it fit!  As soon as I sat the frame on the shell I could see that something was clearly wrong.

I really don't understand how stuff like this makes it past even a fairly casual inspection.  I know I come from an aerospace background, but what I see here isn't rocket science!

The process you wish for sounds a lot like 3rd  Rail.

Dave45681 posted:

gunrunnerjohn posted:

..............

Update:  Not enough slack to turn the board around in mine, so something has changed!

Is it just the wires for the two conductor connector near the top right in the pic(red(or maybe orange) and black)?  If they weren't routed through what looks like a cable clamp on the frame, might they reach?  (though I am guessing if they would you would already have done it since you have taken so many more engines apart that I have)

It looks like you got "heads" and Sean got "tails" when the assembler flipped the coin on which way they oriented the board when they snapped it in.

Since this is a standard board, is it normally found in the holder in the same orientation on other engines (larger cap normally closer to the holder's screw holes?)?  This could just be one of the first tight enough spaces where it actually makes a difference due to clearance above?

-Dave

I looked closer, and a number of the wires appear not to be long enough to turn the board around.  One wonders if one assembly line was building them one way and another one was turning the board around.  Hard to believe all the harnesses aren't the same, but pictures normally don't lie.  Some of the shots of other tenders above have boards in different positions, and seemingly very long wires to reach where they need to go.

gunrunnerjohn posted:

Dave45681 posted:

gunrunnerjohn posted:

..............

Update:  Not enough slack to turn the board around in mine, so something has changed!

Is it just the wires for the two conductor connector near the top right in the pic(red(or maybe orange) and black)?  If they weren't routed through what looks like a cable clamp on the frame, might they reach?  (though I am guessing if they would you would already have done it since you have taken so many more engines apart that I have)

It looks like you got "heads" and Sean got "tails" when the assembler flipped the coin on which way they oriented the board when they snapped it in.

Since this is a standard board, is it normally found in the holder in the same orientation on other engines (larger cap normally closer to the holder's screw holes?)?  This could just be one of the first tight enough spaces where it actually makes a difference due to clearance above?

-Dave

I looked closer, and a number of the wires appear not to be long enough to turn the board around.  One wonders if one assembly line was building them one way and another one was turning the board around.  Hard to believe all the harnesses aren't the same, but pictures normally don't lie.  Some of the shots of other tenders above have boards in different positions, and seemingly very long wires to reach where they need to go.

John,

It looks like my RS LITE board is mounted next to the speaker and then the other small board (not sure it's exactly function) is on the coupler end on the tender. On yours the little board is mounted on the speaker side and the RS LITE on the coupler end of the tender.

The harness are indeed the same as you mentioned but it seems the different orientation is why you can't turn your board around.

The orientation of the small PCB is even different. My connectors face vertically while yours are horizontal. Our tenders are obviously different proportionally, but maybe arranging the boards like mine may help? Looks like a lot of work for no rewards though since your fix of placing the board diagonal a bit is a MUCH easier fix.

Thanks!

Soo Line posted:

It would appear in Daniel's tender that the larger board is positioned closer to the speaker and in Sean's tender it is positioned further from the speaker.

Thanks Guys.  Appreciate your efforts to help navigate this mystery.

Dave

I  have the small board vertical in the middle where yours is horizontal on the end.  My tender is shorter I guess.

I suspect I'll have to leave it as is.  Right now everything is working, the hatch is back down where it belongs, and there are no bare wires.  Let sleeping dogs lie.

Keystone posted:

shawn posted:

Hmm, All started with the demise of M.R.? Sort of a direct correlation.

Direct Correlation? Not sure of the direct or implied meaning to that comment, but maybe more simply MR saw the writing on the wall.  I can only guess that MR saw what the Lionel group had or did not have to work with going forward and did not like what he saw. The operational and financial limitations placed on a division by its outside ownership can make it a difficult and the unpleasant place to work in both short and long term. 

I agree with those that said Lionel needs better oversight on factory work or better vetting and performance contracts when selecting a manufacturer.  Do HO or N manufacturers have these type of quality issues?

M.R. was a man with integrity.  Was not one that would sit idly by with all the quality issues that are taking place and not say or try to do something about it. Totally opposite the current group that refuse to address or even ackowlege that there is an issue and just worry about presenting new products for sale.

John Rowlen posted:

Daniel, 

I see your tender middle hatch is raised up like my Pennsylvania Lines #7109 tender hatch. It could be the way the wire hinge is bent for the hatches on the Lines West Tenders.

Thank you for the pictures of your tender inside wiring. It is orderly and appears well done.  I have voiced my concerns to Dean that some of my engines purchased in the last two years, arrived with issues that looked like a disgruntled employee messed up the engine.  I have received engines with pinched wires in the nose of the engine: C&O Allegheny #1604, Southern Pacific Cab Forward, ATSF 4-8-4 with no battery cable, etc.  I was told that the Chinese factory workers prize their jobs and would never tamper with an engine … knowingly.  It is difficult to understand how pinched wires occur if the engine has been well designed.  The skill and care of the factory workers are the only variables that can possibly account for the differences in the photos in this thread.  All pictures are real … all problems annoying.  I am waiting for my sound to finally quit.

Sincerely, John Rowlen

Hey John R.,

I had not noticed it but I just went into the garage and pushed it down and it did go in all the way. I think it's just a clearance issue with the other hatches. Good eye though my friend, I didn't not catch it. Lol you made me run to see if it has to fix it but luckily I don't.

Thanks!

gunrunnerjohn posted:

I suspect I'll have to leave it as is.  Right now everything is working, the hatch is back down where it belongs, and there are no bare wires.  Let sleeping dogs lie.

Put that sleeping dog on the track and admire that swinging bell!!! 😎😎

gunrunnerjohn posted:

I suspect I'll have to leave it as is.  Right now everything is working, the hatch is back down where it belongs, and there are no bare wires.  Let sleeping dogs lie.

I'm still patiently waiting for you to unveil the innards of the locomotive

Alan Mancus posted:

John the person building that train, it was probably Monday morning and he or she did not feel like working or Friday afternoon and couldn't wait to get home totally did not care about there JOB!

...spell check, please... 

Mark in Oregon

Rick, I'm afraid I'd see something like you picture if I open the locomotive.

Like Sandjam, I bought the PRSL version (6-84949).  I opened mine up and I found it exactly as Sandjam described: no stripped screws, no pinched wires, and the board oriented with the capacitor toward the front (speaker).  FWIW, the Date of Manufacture (DOM) on the shipping carton is 08/31/2018.  One thing that surprised me was how large the Philips screwdriver was for the screws holding the tender shell. 

It seems there may have been separate assembly lines and not just different paint/decoration lines for the various versions of this locomotive.  

At least two of the small tender models had the board orientation like mine, and I'm sure there must be others. 

Strummer posted:

Alan Mancus posted:

John the person building that train, it was probably Monday morning and he or she did not feel like working or Friday afternoon and couldn't wait to get home totally did not care about there JOB!

...spell check, please... 

Mark in Oregon

Mark,

I see it often on the Forum, there when it should be their.

Daniel, do you have a date of manufacture on your Allegheny?? and what LHS you bought it from??

John,

I am curious if you replaced the chaffed wires, taped the area, or used some other means to repair them?

Thanks!

Steve

Pitts posted:

John,

I am curious if you replaced the chaffed wires, taped the area, or used some other means to repair them?

Thanks!

Steve

Heat shrink for sure. You can unclip the wire at the white connector end, slip on a piece of heat shrink and replace. It's the safest way.

RickM46 posted:

Daniel, do you have a date of manufacture on your Allegheny?? and what LHS you bought it from??

Not home RN but I will let you know ASAP.

Pitts posted:

John,

I am curious if you replaced the chaffed wires, taped the area, or used some other means to repair them?

Thanks!

Steve

Heatshrink, I just pulled them out of the connector and slid it over.

This thread on the Lionel H-10 Steam engines is too valuable for it to be removed.

The input from various owners is giving Lionel Service a good look at the many variations being found in the tenders.  This will help Dean and the technicians see the layout of these engines and prepare for repairs.  It also gives management a good look to ask the factory why are there so many variations, and why were they made.

If the smaller Standard tender layout was done properly, why would it be changed for the higher Lines West tenders?  Perhaps the factory in China did not communicate adequately with their assemblers.  "The tender is not a 'grocery bag' to stuff parts in."  There should have been pictures and schematics for the workers to follow. 

Until next time, … and you know there will be a next time.  It's on the boat now.

Sincerely, John Rowlen

John Rowlen posted:

If the smaller Standard tender layout was done properly, why would it be changed for the higher Lines West tenders? 

Unless I'm mistaken so far it appears the only tender that is the issue is the shorter/standard tender.

At that, so far. Only the prr #1288 tender has the incorrectly mounted board with the damaged wires.

The PRSL tender is identical to the 1288 tender. However Sandjam and Pgentieu have no issues with their PRSL tenders.

It figures it has to be only the 1288...that's the one I bought.

I'm still waiting for John to let us know how many potential "shorts"are in the loco.

I wonder if it's all the 1288's or only some.  It's odd that they decided to make them different, makes absolutely no sense at all!

No wire issues with my Lines West.

Everything looks good.

Runs great!

Arthur posted:

Strummer posted:

Alan Mancus posted:

John the person building that train, it was probably Monday morning and he or she did not feel like working or Friday afternoon and couldn't wait to get home totally did not care about there JOB!

...spell check, please... 

Mark in Oregon

Mark,

I see it often on the Forum, there when it should be their.

And the worst of all- "loose"!

Lose vs Loose.

Not that it's misspelled,  but it's misused all the time!  😟

Gunrunner John, 

It is obvious from the pictures of the various tender electronics that the components in your H-10 are not mounted in the same place and in the flat/horizontal position as on other H-10 engines.  The big board that is near the speaker on other engines, is near your tender coupler.

Here is a theory: The technician plugged all the electronics together and then tried to fasten the boards to the frame.  Realizing that that method would not work, the ASSembler pulled on the wires to disconnect them.  Pulling on wires with pliers in an attempt to loosen them, could scrape the wires as seen in your pictures.

Lionel should really get a chance to look at this engine.

I see in pictures that other H-10 engines are set up like your H-10 #1288.  It is puzzling that pictures of the correct assembly method are not used to help the assembler put parts in the correct place, at the correct horizontal or vertical position.  It appears  your assembler went "rouge".

Do you have room in your H-10 for a YLB rechargeable battery?  My Pennsylvania Lines #1709  H10 loses sound going over my Atlas #5 switches.

Is it possible to add a wire to join all the center pickup rollers, like Lionel used on the Y6B Switchers?

Sincerely, John Rowlen

John Rowlen posted:

..................  It appears  your assembler went "rouge"..............

Is he French?

Rogue?

John Rowlen posted:

Do you have room in your H-10 for a YLB rechargeable battery?  My Pennsylvania Lines #1709  H10 loses sound going over my Atlas #5 switches.

Is it possible to add a wire to join all the center pickup rollers, like Lionel used on the Y6B Switchers?

Plenty of room for the YLB in the tender, just sits on top of the audio board.  It is possible to add a wire between the locomotive and tender, obviously you'll have to open both up to connect it.  I add a 1.1A PTC to the wire to protect it in case of a derailment that puts a roller on the outside rail.  I've done this to a lot of small steamers, and even some larger ones.  If the locomotive only has two rollers, I consider the roller sharing wire.