Newbie ripped off at train show

I’d call the show organizers and see if they would give me contact info. If not just let them know of the issue.

Personally I'd be ticked off.   Unfortunately what we don't know is if there was some kind of indication from the seller that the engine had been gutted.  I'll be honest I had to skip through the video so this might have been mentioned either way.

That being said I would have been a bit more careful and been better at examining what I was purchasing but that comes from experience.  I would definitely contact the folks running the show.  I'm fortunate to have never been a victim of this but I wouldn't let them off the hook so easy and would pursue this further.  Someone knows who they are, especially the show operators.  Let's see what their side of the story is but this should be pursued.

He does mention that the guys didn't take Credit Cards and that should have been a red flag.  I completely disagree with that.  I don't take CCs, only cash at shows.  What I do have is a test track right at my table.  You don't have to go anywhere to test what I am selling.  Me and the guys I go with all test everything for you before you buy it if you want.  If it doesn't perform as expected you can offer me a lower price or you can walk away.  Gives the buyer and myself a piece of mind.  I've even tested other purchases but I tend to avoid that so I can't be blamed for an issue that might be present.

I just feel terrible for him.......yes, you should check out all your purchases......but, I'm sure he just got excited when he saw a great price on a command diesel.

The question is did the sellers know what they were delivering was contrary to what he was expecting?  We'll never know......but, a hard lesson learned!

Peter

Most “dummy” engines I’ve seen at train shows are marked as such in the price tag or a sign.   Unfortunately this might not have happened in this case.  
As a tip to new train fan I always have a Greenberg Price guide with me.  A quick look will tell you the value of the engine and perhaps have it noted as a dummy.
I’d still contact the seller and see if u can work something out.  Odds r they will be at York next month.  

The guy should go to the ALLENTOWN MEET SITE, there is a floor plan with the dealers names that are there.  Get in contact with the organizer and have them give their address so he can contact them.  There is also a test track at ALLENTOWN a to test out engines before you purchase them.  

@Lyinel posted:

Most “dummy” engines I’ve seen at train shows are marked as such in the price tag or a sign.   Unfortunately this might not have happened in this case.  
As a tip to new train fan I always have a Greenberg Price guide with me.  A quick look will tell you the value of the engine and perhaps have it noted as a dummy.
I’d still contact the seller and see if u can work something out.  Odds r they will be at York next month.  

From what I seen in the video it looks to me the guts were removed. Cut wires and all. If it was a dummy it appears it had some electronics at some point.

There isn’t a person in this hobby who hasn’t experienced a momentary lapse of common sense at a train show. I imagine we’ve all learned a lesson and hopefully, it wasn’t too expensive a lesson.

As Marty notes, train show test tracks are there for a reason. Before buying, I test engines to confirm they function properly. I also test passenger cars and cabooses to make sure lights and LED’s work.

I agree with Pu239’s comment above; “Ray” should reach out to the First Frost folks in Allentown and at the very least, let them know about this. Being personally involved in the organization of our local TCA Chapter train shows, we want folks attending to have a good time and a good experience. It’s repeat attendees who help spread the word and contribute toward making a show successful. If something like this happened at one of our shows; you can be certain we would want to know about it so we could investigate.

Curt

I stopped going to Chicago area shows. It seems most sellers are trying to capitalize on the impulse buyer, and always try to convince you" their price is a good deal."

I find it mind boggling how sellers will lug tons of stuff back and forth each month because prices are too high and stuff doesn't sell.

More often than not. I can find the same items online from a reputable dealer for less. At least you have some sort if recourse, even if it's ebay.

TCA membership is no more an indicator of honesty, than someone who says they go to church every Sunday.

I feel super bad for the guy who I assume is Ray. I agree with all the comments above that he should go further to try to get his money back. As I person who once got ripped when I was new to the hobby I totally know how he feels and it stinks.

However, I do wholeheartedly agree with Marty that just because someone only takes cash doesn’t mean they are scammers. Most guys in this hobby are honest but you do watch out for the minority that are dishonest.

I agree....he should go back and see if he can locate the sellers. He is being very gracious about it. If the sellers are TCA members, there should be some recourse for him. He says it is his fault, but the box indicates that the loco has TMCC electronics, so the sellers misrepresented the item. The hard part will be proving it, but I hope he tries.

My $.02 - Unfortunately, even if his video is 100% truth, and he was deceived, his position is still hearsay, and the three sellers can say “We told him it was nonpowered”, and end of story. Admittedly, pressure from the show’s sponsors/organizers may swing it in his favor of financial recovery.
And, as everyone has heard, ad nauseum, “There’s my side, there’s your side, and the truth lies somewhere in between.”

I have a similar story.  I bought a great looking Santa Fe Diesel Locomotive in C8+ condition on Stout Auctions.  The description never said anything about being a dummy unit, it said 'diesel locomotive.  The picture underneath shows rollers, but there was no box to see the side flap description.  I got it for a great price, at which point I looked up the model number on Greenbergs.  There it clearly said it was a dummy unit.  I contacted Stouts before they issued an invoice and told them I wouldn't have bought it if I knew it was a dummy unit.  They looked into it and said that yep, their description was lacking, so they cancelled the sale.  Stouts have been helpful on several occasions.

I saw the unit in their next auction where it was clearly worded as a dummy unit.

Yeah, I agree with Mark. At $240 I'd say that's a fair price for a dummy unit though. We'll never know the whole story.  Again, I've had buyers remorse a few times, and could only blame myself. Just make it a learning lesson, and move on. I bought a MTH z2400  from a guy that  insisted it worked. I was so excited by the price, got and tested at home... Dud. Thankfully it was a $35 dollar fix from a great local mth repair shop. Ah, the joys of a hobby that's supposed to take you away from the stress of life.

"his position is still hearsay, and the three sellers can say “We told him it was nonpowered”, and end of story."

If the label on the box does in fact state in writing that the loco is TMCC-equipped, that should supersede anything that was said. If nothing was done to document that the item had been altered from its original state, I bet he would win--especially if the sellers are TCA members. The TCA now has Operational Standards as part of its grading system; and part of being a TCA member is agreeing to accurately represent what you are selling and to be fair and prompt in your dealings.

All of these aspects of the transaction notwithstanding, it would be nice if the sellers would simply do the right thing here and reverse the transaction if they are approached about this. It's always sad to see this, especially with someone new to the hobby.

May I offer another take:

I didn't have time to watch the entire video, but I think I picked up the salient points.

Is it at all possible the seller didn't intentionally 'scam' Ray? In other words, did the seller know it was a gutted loco that didn't run? I'm not trying to absolve the seller in any way.  I've  seen in other shows meets, for musical gear, where a seller will buy  items for the purpose of selling at a show, and not know something was amiss.  For example, a guitar cab loaded with the wrong speakers.  SO they unwittingly sell something that is not what it appears to be..

Anyway, I hope Ray can get some answers.

Indeed, it’s unfortunate what happened to this newbie. But, I’ve always thought train shows were over-rated and haven’t been to one in over 7 years. What train stuff I don’t get from my LHS, is purchased from eBay, Trainz, or Trainworld.

I saw this the other night and it was tough to watch - I felt really bad for the guy - the whole thing seems somewhat bizarre with the cut wires etc - however wasn’t the price kind of cheap for a powered high end scale diesel - not defending the sellers but did they assume he knew it was a dummy locomotive??? - what’s with the cut wires ???

Hey the good news - he’s now a YouTube sensation - everyone on the planet will be watching his upcoming videos 😊 - sorry

I guess either this guy didn't handle this locomotive at all before they boxed it up or he's so new that he wouldn't have noticed how light it was, or had the forethought to open the control panel and inspect the switches etc.  I can't imagine buying almost anything without a close visual once-over and any seller that won't let you handle and inspect the merchandise is a big red flag.  Also, many / most train shows I've been to have a table where you can test various gauge locomotives, but perhaps this guy didn't notice or the show didn't have one.  Some of the junk they try to sell at these shows might not work even if it did have all it's guts intact.

That stinks, to say the least. Here are my tips for train show buying:

Tis Train Show Season! (warrenvillerailroad.com)

@Mark V. Spadaro posted:

My $.02 - Unfortunately, even if his video is 100% truth, and he was deceived, his position is still hearsay, and the three sellers can say “We told him it was nonpowered”, and end of story. Admittedly, pressure from the show’s sponsors/organizers may swing it in his favor of financial recovery.
And, as everyone has heard, ad nauseum, “There’s my side, there’s your side, and the truth lies somewhere in between.”

If they told him it was nonpowered, and they felt that price was fine for a dummy engine, they should have no problem refunding the sale. He gets back his money, they get back their engine, and life goes on.

I watched the entire video.

He was genuinely excited about his "first" Lionel engine.  And while I realize not everyone takes credit cards acting "offended" that he asked is a red flag for me.   And then starting to suggest that it was Legacy equipped and then changing their mind is another red flag.

I also counted how many times he said, "it's my fault".  It was five times right up until the end of the video.   Who would post a video driving that point home if they were trying to deflect blame?  He didn't even name the vendor.

It was also clear that he posted the video for suggestions as to what to do about it.  He stated that.

I believe him him.  He should report it to the show managers along with his video.

John

@Knight007 posted:

I guess either this guy didn't handle this locomotive at all before they boxed it up or he's so new that he wouldn't have noticed how light it was,

If you watched the video he remarked at how HEAVY it was not how "light" it was.

John

Always nice to have a test track.

I think what happened to him is awful!

I will say however that the perception that there is a problem if someone doesn't take credit card is off the mark.  I've made plenty of solid deals with folks at train shows for cash.

This experience is not at all representative of what normally happens at train shows.

@Knight007 posted:

I guess either this guy didn't handle this locomotive at all before they boxed it up or he's so new that he wouldn't have noticed how light it was, or had the forethought to open the control panel and inspect the switches etc.

The smaller can motors and electronics add little to the weight of a scale locomotive. Scale dummys usually have a diecast frame/fuel tank as well as die cast trucks, in this case the powered trucks may still have the gears adding a bit more weight.

An O scale dummy is still heavy, just not "quite" as heavy as a powered unit. Unlike H.O. where a dummy will get plastic trucks etc. making it feel more like a piece of rolling stock.

   I don't have anything against train shows, never had a bad experience either.   But used cars, used trains, used computers, used cell phones, used lawn mowers, etc, etc, etc,..    it is always buyer beware.    That being said I don't go to train shows looking for deals, I go to see the people, the layouts, and either to browse for something unusual or just browse.    With the exception of a flea market find over 40 years ago all my locomotives (new or used) come from a hobby shop or one of the supporting businesses here on OGR.  I have purchased a few clunkers but it's never been any problem returning them.

Just my 2 cents,

-Mike in NC,

If it's too good to be true.......

I stopped attending Chicago area shows, too.

Because I can buy from reputable dealers easily enough on-line.

I once bought a Crusader steam loco, used but in the box, at a show for a reasonable (but not exceptional) price. Got it home, removed it from the box and the side of the loco facing away from the buyer was all smashed in--drivers damaged--the works. But until you looked at that side, you saw nothing wrong! Luckily, the show went on for another day and I ran up there and got my money back. The two young men working the large, multi-table booth gave each other silent signals and at first said I dropped it. I didn't react and after 20 seconds or so, the guy just reached into his wallet and gave me my money back. All my fault for not inspecting the loco better. I was just LUCKY that the show had another day to run.

Don Merz

Sounds like a bunch of experiences with the on-line auctions (not eBay).  I had someone come in with his auction prize and ask if I could look at it.  Both PS/3 boards were missing, small wonder why it didn't run!

IMO, the guy's statement about credit cards is a generational thing.  We old guys are used to using cash, but younger people often refer to their debit card as "my cash".

I don't know him, don't follow him, etc., but I hope that he can find the vendor.  The vendor may or may not have known what was in the box.  If he knew, shame on him.  If he didn't know, the straight up thing to do is take the item back and give a refund.  I hope that the vendor isn't in TCA.

Tough break.  

I always negotiate the deal, and before I pay I tell them I want a receipt.

No receipt, no deal.

With a receipt you know who to call if something is wrong when you get home. Also, a receipt is necessary if you need to get warranty work done.

On the topic of Chicago shows
I was at Dupage, and found several Lionel switches “new” in the box. I unwrapped one, factory Lionel tissue, nice black wire tie holding the lever and full inserts instructions and really clean outer box. Didn’t think to unwrap the tissue. Didn’t think I needed to. It was crowded,  people bumping into me and I was  excited as was looking for these exact switches. Went in another direction on layout and switches no longer needed, (didn’t open them further). Sadly not a unique situation on my layout.

Went to trade the switches at my LHS, guess what? Someone went to the trouble to repack all the used switches. The LHS showed me the rub marks. Felt like crap at LHS because I told them they were new and my honesty matters, but they understood.
Thought I was being careful.

@Craignor posted:

Tough break.  

I always negotiate the deal, and before I pay I tell them I want a receipt.

No receipt, no deal.

With a receipt you know who to call if something is wrong when you get home. Also, a receipt is necessary if you need to get warranty work done.

Couldn't agree more about the receipt. Many years ago I bought a K-line scale Hudson at York at a great price without getting a receipt and when I got it home it went about two feet and that was it. When I called K-line customer service a receipt was the first thing they asked for, luckily for me K-line was a great company and they honored the warranty. Lessoned learned.

A few thoughts.

1.  Was the vendor even aware it was gutted or was this an estate sale pick up, untested and just moved along?

2.  Did the vendor mis represent the item?  The buyer said I'll take it.  If that was the extent of the exchange then there was no scam

3.  Not taking a credit card, so what.  Its essentially a flea market, cash is king and legal tender.

4.  Reporting to the show?  Again, I didnt hear him say it was mis represented, so he was an uninformed buyer.

5.  Test every powered unit, i sold one once, the buyer came back not pleased with the performance despite my disclosure it would need some tlc, happily refunded his money on the spot.  Similarly i bought a 60 trolley once, failed to run on the test track, vendor asked what i wanted to do, got half off and repaired it.

6.  Sell it as a dummy, recoup part or all of your costs.

7.  My pet peeve, why does this generation need to air out everything on social media?  Are we supposed to form a posse on his behalf?  Work the problem in silence.  And it is entirely possible the sellers will be at york.  If they are, deal with it discreetly and politely,  you might be surprised.   In my experience the number of scammers in this hobby are few.

my advice when buying trains or any goods......  BE CHATTY!

ask questions that establish verbal terms to the oral contract for the sale; like " does it run? " or "is it flawless?

if the seller does not dispute what you say they have acquiesced to your chatty terms. 

@necrails posted:

A few thoughts.

1.  Was the vendor even aware it was gutted or was this an estate sale pick up, untested and just moved along?

2.  Did the vendor mis represent the item?  The buyer said I'll take it.  If that was the extent of the exchange then there was no scam

3.  Not taking a credit card, so what.  Its essentially a flea market, cash is king and legal tender.

4.  Reporting to the show?  Again, I didnt hear him say it was mis represented, so he was an uninformed buyer.

5.  Test every powered unit, i sold one once, the buyer came back not pleased with the performance despite my disclosure it would need some tlc, happily refunded his money on the spot.  Similarly i bought a 60 trolley once, failed to run on the test track, vendor asked what i wanted to do, got half off and repaired it.

6.  Sell it as a dummy, recoup part or all of your costs.

7.  My pet peeve, why does this generation need to air out everything on social media?  Are we supposed to form a posse on his behalf?  Work the problem in silence.  And it is entirely possible the sellers will be at york.  If they are, deal with it discreetly and politely,  you might be surprised.   In my experience the number of scammers in this hobby are few.

How true!!!!

Pat

"Did the vendor mis represent the item?  The buyer said I'll take it.  If that was the extent of the exchange, then there was no scam"

In his video, he mentioned the label on the box states that the loco has TMCC. It sounds like that, in addition to the price, were the basis for his decision to buy. If, in fact, the label states the loco has TMCC, then the item was misrepresented by the seller. I believe that when we list an item for sale, we have an obligation to represent it accurately, regardless of who is buying it, but especially when the buyer is new to the hobby. This was not a good first experience for this buyer.

As for taking it public, I agree and think doing so should be the last resort. I recently had a situation with a dealer and a manufacturer that I tried to resolve discreetly and quietly with both parties. When those parties failed to make it right and flat-out refused to help, I took it public. It was an unpleasant experience, but it got results.

@necrails posted:

A few thoughts.

1.  Was the vendor even aware it was gutted or was this an estate sale pick up, untested and just moved along?

The OP said in his video (9:24) that the guys running the booth said it ran.

2.  Did the vendor mis represent the item?  The buyer said I'll take it.  If that was the extent of the exchange then there was no scam

Again, they said it ran and it obviously does not.

3.  Not taking a credit card, so what.  Its essentially a flea market, cash is king and legal tender.

Credit cards have some options of recourse to recover your money in some of these situations, scammers know this and don't like them for this reason. I don't know about others but I hate carring thousands of dollars around at a show that is easy to lose or steal. They take my credit card, big deal, I'm not responsibile for unauthorized purchases.

4.  Reporting to the show?  Again, I didnt hear him say it was mis represented, so he was an uninformed buyer.

Watch the whole video and listen carefully at the 9:24 timestamp.

5.  Test every powered unit, i sold one once, the buyer came back not pleased with the performance despite my disclosure it would need some tlc, happily refunded his money on the spot.  Similarly i bought a 60 trolley once, failed to run on the test track, vendor asked what i wanted to do, got half off and repaired it.

Agreed! Test any powered unit and all of its functions before paying.

6.  Sell it as a dummy, recoup part or all of your costs.

Good Idea, It's still a nice looking piece.

7.  My pet peeve, why does this generation need to air out everything on social media?  Are we supposed to form a posse on his behalf?  Work the problem in silence.  And it is entirely possible the sellers will be at york.  If they are, deal with it discreetly and politely,  you might be surprised.   In my experience the number of scammers in this hobby are few.

Sometimes people like to tell their story so others can learn and not fall victim to the same situation.  Who knows, maybe it helps him with the grieving process of a big let down.