I buy trains on eBay a lot. I only look at and buy things labeled 'new' since if it isn't new when I get it, eBay will step in for false advertising. I've seen the same item being sold for anywhere from 25% to 200% of the Greenberg mint prices. I say to myself "Don't they look at what other people are selling the same thing for?".
KOOLjock1 writes:
”Except for Springfield's larger dealers like Ro and Gryzboski, I've never seen credit cards used at train shows.“
Jon - Didn’t buy a lot at Amherst in January, but several small purchases went on a credit card. 3 dealers used a credit card reader, and one just tapped my card to his phone. I went 4 for 4 asking to use CC. Didn’t think to ask for receipts because all were CC purchases.
Yeah, the thinking that only the big guys take credit cards is dated. I've had repair men come to the house, and they have readers on their cell phones to give them immediate payment.
I have a number of engines I have bought over the years that since I haven't had a layout to test them on. I know they have test tracks at the shows but I will add when a show is crowded it can be a royal PITA to find the test track, which may not be close at hand, have it tested. Not to mention based on the test tracks I have seen, there is limited testing you can do (do they even have a unit with rollers so you can test speed control). Most of what I have bought has been from places like Gryzbowski, who I assume have tested the engines so I don't feel as bad about not testing them. On the other hand if you are buying from some guy who likely is someone who buys from estates or is one of those guys with ads around saying "I buy trains", or even just a member selling off their own stuff, it should be tested for whatever you can on a test track because it is likely the seller didn't give it any kind of test and who knows how long it has been around since they tested it.
Could this have been innocent on the part of the seller? It is possible. Dealers means a lot of things, you have the pro dealers (like Just Trains), who likely have checked the unit out and know it works, what shape it is in. Then you have the semi pro dealers, which I guess includes the grumpy old men who shuffle their product from one show to another and don't seem to care about selling, but also includes people who know trains and are trying to make a decent sale. There are scammers in this bunch, who know something doesn't work but figure odds of getting blowback is small, but most will have reasonably checked them out because they know enough to. The last category of dealer is the flipper, and they are a crapshoot, they buy from estate sales and the like to do a quick flip..and they know little about the trains (want to tell? Ask them something about the engine, like when was it made, if ps2 what board it has 5v or 3v, does it have odyssey speed control, etc), or ask them (innocently....) how they buy their stuff, most will admit they buy from estate sales and so forth. Then you have non dealers, the people selling their own stuff.
The flippers would be the mostly likely for it to be innocent, in the sense that they likely don't have their own trains and wouldn't know how to test it,they honestly prob don't know the difference between TMCC and legacy, they are in it to flip stuff, quick sales, and they if they bought from someone selling their collection take at face value it ran, so pass that along. Someone selling their own stuff would have used it and could test it before selling it. The weekend dealers you would hope test it, given it is their main business, but not as likely as the pro dealer.
If this was not a flipper, was a weekend dealer, then I would say it likely was a scam, they knew it didn't work and banked on a sucker buying it without testing it.
In the end, the best bet is to take it to a test track and make sure it works. Hopefully the dealer themselves would go with you to check it out, and obviously if they refuse to allow you to test it, walk away. I don't know how test tracks work, if someone is buying a command engine who has never used it before, hopefully there is someone with the test track that can help them. Buying at train shows is something of a crap shoot, at least with auction sites you have some redress, you may not at a train show.
A class of response on here bothered me a bit, and it was those with the tone of "well of course it is the buyers fault, they can look on google, they can research it, and they would know that it couldn't be what they say". A lot of sales at train shows are casual purchases, by people who aren't looking for that one unique train, but rather are hobbyists not collectors who buy what they see and appeals to them. So if they buy something they like and the seller assures them it is the latest and greatest (when it is 20 years old), they may not even think to check. Caveat Emptor is true, but instead of being smug we also should realize that the casual buyer makes up a lot of this hobby and be sympathetic. The hard core train people, who know every variation Lionel or MTH made, etc, are a small group (on this forum it appears otherwise, but the mavens tend to congregate on places like this..which is great, because for more casual people, like myself, it is a huge resource). All I can say is if the more casual people get turned off by bad experiences buying stuff, they aren't likely to stay with the hobby.
Ray stated they told him the engine worked fine. If they said that, they scammed him.
And, yes, Ray did not do his due diligence, but he's a newbie and this was his first experience buying an engine at a show. Now he knows better.
@Mark V. Spadaro posted:KOOLjock1 writes:
”Except for Springfield's larger dealers like Ro and Gryzboski, I've never seen credit cards used at train shows.“
Jon - Didn’t buy a lot at Amherst in January, but several small purchases went on a credit card. 3 dealers used a credit card reader, and one just tapped my card to his phone. I went 4 for 4 asking to use CC. Didn’t think to ask for receipts because all were CC purchases.
@texgeekboy posted:Yeah, the thinking that only the big guys take credit cards is dated. I've had repair men come to the house, and they have readers on their cell phones to give them immediate payment.
IMO, the reluctance to take credit cards and electronic payment is based on four things... a) not wanting to mess with technology (IMO, this is the least important reason), b) not wanting to pay the 3% service charge, c) not wanting to deal with a dispute via the credit card company, and d) cash transactions aren't taxable, right? 
IMO, the last reason is the main one.
I just was looking at the video and then I saw this post. It is good to see that the OGR community really puts their heads together to help someone like this. I think it's important that when ever you make a major purchase, by cash or charge at a show, that you get a receipt showing the sellers name and contact information. The preferable method of payment would be charge, in case you need to contest the transaction.
@Mark V. Spadaro posted:KOOLjock1 writes:
”Except for Springfield's larger dealers like Ro and Gryzboski, I've never seen credit cards used at train shows.“
Jon - Didn’t buy a lot at Amherst in January, but several small purchases went on a credit card. 3 dealers used a credit card reader, and one just tapped my card to his phone. I went 4 for 4 asking to use CC. Didn’t think to ask for receipts because all were CC purchases.
My experience is that credit cards are commonly taken but they may require it be for an amount over $50 or something like that.
From the OGR Forum Terms of Service:
"When you post about a bad experience keep in mind that there are usually three sides to every quarrel: your side, the other side, and the truth, which is somewhere in the middle. When you post about such a difference of opinion, the other side usually doesn't have the opportunity to defend himself on the Forum so such things can become very one-sided and unfair very quickly."
Without hearing the seller's side of the story here, almost everything posted in this thread is just speculation.
I am surprised that this thread has run as long as it has!
Yep on the tax issue. That's why I try to pay all my restaurant tabs in cash, especially at mom and pop places. They can handle the transaction anyway they want.
@texgeekboy posted:Yep on the tax issue. That's why I try to pay all my restaurant tabs in cash, especially at mom and pop places. They can handle the transaction anyway they want.
Places that do that generally end up getting caught, because their register receipts can be checked against their filings with the state and they do check. With something like a vendor at a train show, it would be very difficult for the state to audit them and wouldn't be worth the time, but with restaurants they do check and they tend to do it with cash only places a lot. I know of one restaurant I went to that was cash only for years, they got greedy with the tax stuff, and they ended up in a lot of trouble, including athletes and sports figures, who went there a lot, being told not to go there, and they ended up basically being forced to take credit cards. I suspect the real reason is the bother of having to pay for the Square device or whatever and then paying the fee, which varies by car (usually 3%). Some vendors at train shows will use paypal friends and family.
@PRRMP54 posted:I am surprised that this thread has run as long as it has!
especially since it's turned into 4 different topics....as per usual.
@Keith L posted:Ray stated they told him the engine worked fine. If they said that, they scammed him.
And, yes, Ray did not do his due diligence, but he's a newbie and this was his first experience buying an engine at a show. Now he knows better.
That's a good point. That's absolutely right. Unfortunately he can't prove it because it voids the deal. Also too bad he ran into this problem his first time out.
But what if the seller got confused with another locomotive he has that looks similar? He is probably older and who hasn’t at our age had the occasional brain fart? He may not have intended to tell Ray the wrong thing. Of course I am only speculating but until we know the sellers side of it that’s all we can do.
@Hudson J1e posted:But what if the seller got confused with another locomotive he has that looks similar? He is probably older and who hasn’t at our age had the occasional brain fart? He may not have intended to tell Ray the wrong thing. Of course I am only speculating but until we know the sellers side of it that’s all we can do.
Confused or not, we can't read people's minds. He said what he said and a deal is a deal. Besides there were 3 people behind the counter and 3 minds at work.
I am not disputing what the guy said just saying he might have made an honest mistake. I agree with you that probably this isn’t the case. All I am saying is there is a chance it was a mistake and just because there were two other people there that is no guarantee that those two people were intimately familiar with every piece for sale on the table. If they knew it was a dummy and didn’t speak up then they are part of the scam and should be ashamed of themselves. Like you said we can’t read minds, we weren’t there and we don’t know the other side of the story.
