hmm..   Thats interesting.

I always thought that a warranty usually starts at the time of sale? If that is the case are you buying a new unused engine with no warranty because they were made over three years ago? I am confused. Can somebody clarify?

Gee...you have to buy Kia or Hyundai trains to get a long warranty?

https://www.lionelsupport.com/...y/warrantypolicy.pdf

Lionel Limited Warranty Policy & Service

This Lionel product, including all mechanical and electrical components, moving parts, motors and structural components, with the exception of LIGHT BULBS, LED’s & TRACTION TIRES are warranted to the original owner-purchaser for a period of one year from the original date of purchase against original defects in materials or workmanship when purchased through a Lionel Authorized Retailer*. This warranty does NOT cover the following: • Normal wear and tear • Light bulbs or LED’s • Defects appearing in the course of commercial use • Damage resulting from abuse/misuse of the product Transfer of this product by the original owner-purchaser to another person voids this warranty in its entirety. Modification of this product in any way; visually mechanically or electronically, voids the warranty in its entirety. Any warranted product which is defective in original materials or workmanship and is delivered by the original owner-purchaser (this warranty is non-transferrable) to Lionel LLC or any Lionel Authorized Service Station MUST be accompanied by the original receipt for purchase (or copy) from an Authorized Lionel Retailer*, will at the discretion of Lionel LLC, be repaired or replaced, without charge for parts or labor. In the event the defective product cannot be repaired, and a suitable replacement is not available, Lionel will offer to replace the product with a comparable model (determined by Lionel LLC), if available. In the event a comparable model is not available the customer will be refunded the original purchase price (requires proof of purchase from the Authorized Lionel Retailer* it was originally purchased). Any products on which warranty service is sought must be sent freight or postage prepaid (Lionel will refuse any package when postage is due). Transportation and shipping charges are not covered as part of this warranty. NOTE: Products that require service that do not have a receipt from an LIONEL AUTHORIZED RETAILER* will be required to pay for all parts required to repair the product (labor will not incur a charge) providing the product is not older than 3 years from date of manufacture and is within 1 year from date of purchase. A copy of the original sales receipt is required.

And for comparision:

https://mthtrains.com/news/002

One-Year Limited Warranty

Products purchased from an Authorized M.T.H. Retailer are covered by this warranty provided the product was manufactured within five years of the date of purchase. This warranty is for the original purchaser and is non-transferable.

A “guess”, after 3 years, sale or no sale, the warranty period is considered over. More than likely, Lionel (just guessing) notified their dealers of this elimination of services.  I also thought that the real warranty began when the consumer purchased the Train engine from the retail dealer....We Learn new things on a daily basis nowadays.  It does make sense in a roundabout way...I hope one or so of the dealers that advertise on this forum chime in.....Happy Railroading.

The warranty starts when the item arrives in the United States.  If it is five years old, there is no warranty left on the engine... prices drop.

It really does not matter, there are no parts for any of the new engines arriving any way.  We are buying engines for ONE year only.  Part of that year may be consumed with sending the engine back to Lionel, and they have no parts, and; therefore, they offer you another newer engine as a replacement, which also has no parts and only a ONE year warranty.

You would not buy a car under these conditions.

Sincerely,  John Rowlen

Heck, the new Lionel 21" passenger cars arrived this February, 2018, and Lionel immediately said the new cars had no warranty because Lionel had no parts to service them. (They still don't have the couplers for two of my 21" passenger cars.)   Nicholas Smith Trains has been trying to get me replacement couplers for five months.

They can't warranty what we don't have parts for.  Their instructions were to "Return the 21" passenger cars to the dealer and get your money back" … within the dealer's return window, usually one week.

Gotcha.

Sincerely,  John Rowlen

As I read it (copied below), the three year limit applies ONLY when products that require service do NOT have a receipt from an authorized Lionel retailer.  So it only applies when the receipt is NOT from an authorized Lionel retailer.  I do not see a three year limit with a receipt from an authorized Lionel retailer.  

"NOTE: Products that require service that do not have a receipt from an LIONEL AUTHORIZED RETAILER* will be required to pay for all parts required to repair the product (labor will not incur a charge) providing the product is not older than 3 years from date of manufacture and is within 1 year from date of purchase. A copy of the original sales receipt is required.

John Rowlen posted:

You would not buy a car under these conditions.

Sincerely,  John Rowlen

Won't buy a model train under these conditions either.

Chris Sheldon

Even when Lionel Service works on an engine, it does not mean that it will run when you receive it back.  My Allegheny was repaired by Lionel, but when I checked the engine, it does not run smoothly and slows down after speed step 23, when it should be accelerating.

Now the warranty has expired.  I'm out of luck.  Lionel is not taking Out-of-warranty repairs. 

Lionel is currently working on two Vision Line GG1s that have not run correctly since I bought them. The #4913 has been back three times and now will not move.  The Vision Line #4935 has had email suggestions from Dean that I followed, and it has not improved over one year.  It is also at Lionel.  Katie sent an email offering me other engines from which to choose.  I guess they can't fix the GG1, and maybe my second GG1 too.

Sincerely, John Rowlen

And yet they wonder why many modelers prefer postwar to MPC era trains.   

Mitch

John Rowlen posted:

Heck, the new Lionel 21" passenger cars arrived this February, 2018, and Lionel immediately said the new cars had no warranty because Lionel had no parts to service them. (They still don't have the couplers for two of my 21" passenger cars.)   Nicholas Smith Trains has been trying to get me replacement couplers for five months.

They can't warranty what we don't have parts for.  Their instructions were to "Return the 21" passenger cars to the dealer and get your money back" … within the dealer's return window, usually one week.

Gotcha.

Sincerely,  John Rowlen

This is just a massive failure on Lionel’s part.  Pun intended.  I used one of the original run part numbers to get the coupler parts I needed.   Also might cross reference the 86ft box car and auto rack.  

Would one expect Lionel or MTH to warranty cover a brand new in the box item sitting on a dealer's shelf from 2000?  There has to be some limit to the warranty.  I'm not sure 3 years or 5 years is that magic number but a warranty cannot be indefinite on an item despite when it was purchased vs manufactured.  

As far as the Post War crowd, how many unique parts are on a Postwar engine?  So many of these share common parts because the details were not specific to that engine.  Many of the same parts are shared across so many engines.  The comparison is really a bit silly.

The parts situation is an inevitable result of the business model:  sell what someone else manufactures in very small quantities to an audience that demands only the latest and greatest (that is, will refuse to buy unless some new features have been added to each new product) in gimcrackery and doodaddishness.

There is no possible way an economically viable company could service or supply parts in this model. 

You have met the enemy, and he is you.

Well said, PALALLIN

Don't shop at Nick Smith.  Had a bad experience with them in the past.   

If you want your stuff to have a warranty, buy it at the release time. If you buy something no longer covered under warranty, leverage that point in your purchase price. Lionel does 3 years, MTH does 5 years. This was beaten to death at the time Lionel announced it and every thought the world was coming to an end but the sun still rose this morning 

MartyE posted:

Would one expect Lionel or MTH to warranty cover a brand new in the box item sitting on a dealer's shelf from 2000?  There has to be some limit to the warranty.  I'm not sure 3 years or 5 years is that magic number but a warranty cannot be indefinite on an item despite when it was purchased vs manufactured.  

As far as the Post War crowd, how many unique parts are on a Postwar engine?  So many of these share common parts because the details were not specific to that engine.  Many of the same parts are shared across so many engines.  The comparison is really a bit silly.

If mth can make pretty much same boards for each engine. I think lionel can too. Mth you can put whatever sound file on their boards.

When we had our store, we covered everything with a year warranty starting the day you purchased it. I felt that was the only way and correct way to do it. 

I'd think if you pay with a credit card, you'd at least be protected against DOA. 

If you tell pretty much any credit card company you buy something and it doesn't work and you tried to exchange/return it within the store's return period (7 days, 2 weeks, 30 days - whatever the case may be), I doubt the Importer policy is going to make them say "oh, sorry, it's yours since it was manufactured more than 3 years ago". 

If the vendor didn't take it back, I suspect they'd be fighting with your CC company at that point.

-Dave

Dan, don't know what your problem was and frankly don't need to know.  In my world, anybody can have a bad day, easy to understand, easy to forgive. 

My dad and I shopped at the original Nick Smith in the mid fifties, and I have been a customer of Chris Gahns since 1962 when racing and then with Chris when I got back into trains after a couple of accidents.

Chris has  been fair with me for 56 years.  Can't say that about  my broker, my real estate agent, my Wells Fargo bank, my Bank of America mortgage, Blue Cross, General Motors, Sears or my first wife.

IMO, Chris is an absolute class act.

It should be noted that Lionel changed the DESIGN of the coupler plate and couplers on the last run of 21" passenger cars.  The glide plate is bent to a different height when Lionel attempted to lower the car body on the trucks.  This led to many buyers having couplers pitching upward as on the Union Pacific 21" Excursion Cars.

Got an email from Katie.  They are trying to see if they can get the parts.  It sounded like the parts are not in Lionel's hands, put rather a third party.  I could ne wrong, but I know I still don't have parts after over five months.

My family will slide them into my coffin when they finally arrive.

Sincerely,  John Rowlen

Matt,  Unfortunately the sun did not rise this morning.  It just became a dreary grey.  It has been raining in Cleveland for fives days and will continue until Sunday when it dries up for eight hours, then starts to rain again.

Somewhere I read that Cleveland, Ohio has more cloudy days per year than London (Foggy), England does.

I have an Atlas O H21a Hopper to slosh over to the post office to Joey. A corner plate was missing, exposing the grey plastic original shell. It was only one of the twenty-eight I just purchased: twenty Pennsylvania "Keystone Coal Goes to War" and eight Norfolk & Western.  They are really nice cars with Atlas O hidden coupler plate on Andrews Trucks.

Sincerely, John Rowlen

bmoran4 posted:

https://www.lionelsupport.com/...y/warrantypolicy.pdf

 

Lionel Limited Warranty Policy & Service

This Lionel product, including all mechanical and electrical components, moving parts, motors and structural components, with the exception of LIGHT BULBS, LED’s & TRACTION TIRES are warranted to the original owner-purchaser for a period of one year from the original date of purchase against original defects in materials or workmanship when purchased through a Lionel Authorized Retailer*. This warranty does NOT cover the following: • Normal wear and tear • Light bulbs or LED’s • Defects appearing in the course of commercial use • Damage resulting from abuse/misuse of the product Transfer of this product by the original owner-purchaser to another person voids this warranty in its entirety. Modification of this product in any way; visually mechanically or electronically, voids the warranty in its entirety. Any warranted product which is defective in original materials or workmanship and is delivered by the original owner-purchaser (this warranty is non-transferrable) to Lionel LLC or any Lionel Authorized Service Station MUST be accompanied by the original receipt for purchase (or copy) from an Authorized Lionel Retailer*, will at the discretion of Lionel LLC, be repaired or replaced, without charge for parts or labor. In the event the defective product cannot be repaired, and a suitable replacement is not available, Lionel will offer to replace the product with a comparable model (determined by Lionel LLC), if available. In the event a comparable model is not available the customer will be refunded the original purchase price (requires proof of purchase from the Authorized Lionel Retailer* it was originally purchased). Any products on which warranty service is sought must be sent freight or postage prepaid (Lionel will refuse any package when postage is due). Transportation and shipping charges are not covered as part of this warranty. NOTE: Products that require service that do not have a receipt from an LIONEL AUTHORIZED RETAILER* will be required to pay for all parts required to repair the product (labor will not incur a charge) providing the product is not older than 3 years from date of manufacture and is within 1 year from date of purchase. A copy of the original sales receipt is required.

 

And for comparision:

https://mthtrains.com/news/002

One-Year Limited Warranty

Products purchased from an Authorized M.T.H. Retailer are covered by this warranty provided the product was manufactured within five years of the date of purchase. This warranty is for the original purchaser and is non-transferable.

local State laws override anything in the warranty. Check with your state.

Well that is good to know.  Not so good if you own some these expensive cars and engines.  I can see both sides of that warranty problem.

I never really thought about the warranty on my postwar and MPC/LTI engines.  

I guess because I never needed a warranty on them.  Most were easy for me to fix when they did break. 

Tom Tee posted:

Dan, don't know what your problem was and frankly don't need to know.  In my world, anybody can have a bad day, easy to understand, easy to forgive. 

My dad and I shopped at the original Nick Smith in the mid fifties, and I have been a customer of Chris Gahns since 1962 when racing and then with Chris when I got back into trains after a couple of accidents.

Chris has  been fair with me for 56 years.  Can't say that about  my broker, my real estate agent, my Wells Fargo bank, my Bank of America mortgage, Blue Cross, General Motors, Sears or my first wife.

IMO, Chris is an absolute class act.

My issue and to do with the return of an item.  Long story short, a refund was not offered, in spite of me having been a loyal customer.  

Sorry to hear about your troubles. I received an email from Lionel clarifying this policy in 2011. However, Lionel dealers in So Cal had no clue.

Bob

I have bought from Nicholas Smith at York and via email and have only positive results and they are one of the more reputable dealers,maybe you upset somone at NS.

Mikey

I have had excellent service from Nicholas Smith Trains.  I am currently returning an Atlas O H21a Hopper that was missing a corner trim part that was probably lost at the factory in China. There was no part in the box.  The car was in a sealed case of four from Atlas. It was one of twenty-eight new Atlas O H21a Hoppers.  I bought the cars because Atlas O has had an interruption in their manufacturing when their China factory closed.  At my age, there is no certainty that more will be available in my lifetime.  Get it while you can. 

Dealers are faced with issues from the manufacturers and unfortunately repair parts are no longer stocked to aid them in fixing minor issues.  Returning trains, either for the customer-to-dealer or dealer-to-manufacturer is getting more expensive each year.

I appreciate Nicholas Smith Trains communication of this warranty policy.  It is not their policy, but a statement of Lionel's warranty.  If buyers want a better policy, they will have to communicate their feelings to Lionel.  "Talk to them."  Yell at them.  Ignore them, and take up golf.

Sincerely, John Rowlen

There ya go folks after three years on the shelf, you're on your own!  Who would buy expensive engines with no warranty?  You spend big money to buy,  get the product home and its dead out of the box. Then you have no recourse. Is this good customer policy???   Terrible to say the least!

With this policy, why would any dealer want to stock Lionel products? Why would a retail customer want to purchase Lionel products? Once again, Lionel shoots themselves in the foot.

Bill in FtL

This is old news as far as Lionel's warranty policy is concerned. Kudos to Nicholas Smith for bringing it to everyones attention. They or any other dealer could still warranty the item on their own. Another reason to buy from your LHS.

Pete

Dan, at the point of sale in and around and behind the cash register there are signs that say "No cash refund, store credit only"  A common practice for many stores.

Those signs are also in the first floor toy store and are in his speed shop and were in each of the other stores Chris has had.   Old news. 

Being a train store, IMO, that is fine because I always "need" RR supplies. 

More than likely, you too will use or have already used that store credit. 

The sun will come out tomorrow.

Unfortunately, Repairs seem to be taking an eternity lately.