NOS Lionel U30c Problem

Earnie-

 

Are any lights blinking while the locomotive is operating? If so it could indicate a fault. Also, the 9V battery will only preserve the railsounds as the locomotive changes direction, so the lack of a battery shouldn't be the root cause of the problem.

 

-John

Do not recall any blinking lights....forward nor rear....the operation was so erratic on that it was unpredictable as to symptom....difficult to have it respond the same way twice ...  still planning on TMCC layout later today ....if nothing there will take off shell and take look see....I appreciate the response ....Earnie

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Make sure the PGM/RUN switch is in the RUN position.  If not, it'll only go forward.

 

Earnie-

 

I was able to locate the pictorial/wiring diagrams and the parts list for your U30c on Lionel's website. These should definitely help in identifying the different parts.

 

From your previous post, you are correct in your observations mentioned in #6 as there are two Railsounds boards - one for power, and other with the chip containing the sound information. Removing these will only impact sounds and not the control. Your observation in point #7 is spot on too - this is the R2LC radio receiver board, which controls TMCC functions and basic locomotive operation. Without this board the locomotive cannot function. Point #8 is also correct - this is the DCDR board, which drives the motor and also the Odyssey speed control sensor. The spring contact is just for the front/rear lights, as the antenna lead is connected by a single wire directly to the motherboard (this is the rectangular board which all the modular PCBs plug into).

 

I'm thinking it might be an issue with either the motor driver board, the associated wiring harnesses, or the sensor which regulates motor speed. My guess is you can discount the sensor, only because if it was not functioning properly the locomotive should be moving at warp speed in either (gunrunnerjohn or the other experts on the forum can confirm if this true). Wire harnesses are easy to test and easier to replace, as Lionel and other parts sources have them in stock. If it is the DCDR board, you have two options. One would be to replace with the same part, or consider the Cruise Commander M for Odyssey-equipped locomotives from The Electric Railroad Company (a Lionel-owned company offering TMCC upgrade parts). The Cruise Commander M eliminates the need for a motor sensor, and also is a few dollars less than a replacement DCDR from Lionel.

 

Good luck!

 

-John

Silly check here but have you tried re-seating the boards? I have had several Legacy engines act up and after reseating the boards all was good. One did it again so I used some dielectric grease to keep the connections from oxidizing. Might be worth a try.

THANK YOU JOHN....am printing the schematics and IPLS as I type...will snoop thru those first and then plan an "attack".....PS...is the ERC Cruise Commander M a fit/form/function replacement to the Lionel DCDS board (plug and play) or would

connection, mounting, etc. modification be necessary...if you know?....thanks again!

Hey Jeff...thanks for that...Yup I pulled the 3 PCBS and all the connectors loose...inspected for "mushed" and/or bent pins...reconnected a few times without any change I could detect..I'm going to take another look at the wiring under the motherboard after I remove it...there could be something more there...either that

or a "leaky" final driver (or such) on the motor driver board.....really hate this as it is a NOS (New Old Stock) loco...guess that's why its new and old....was broken..lol

Earnie-

 

I'm glad you found the links helpful! Yes, the ERR Cruise Commander M is a drop-in replacement for the stock DCDR; the only change is that the ERR unit does not need the external motor sensor, so the three-wire plug doesn't get connected to the replacement board. Also there is a ground wire found on the stock DCDR board which does not get reconnected to the Cruise Commander M product.

 

I was able to find the product page and installation manual (scroll down to the part about the SD-80 with Odyssey, as this applies to your locomotive) for the Cruise Commander M.

 

Regardless if you opt for the Cruise Commander M or the replacement DCDR, I highly recommend Boxcar Bill (one of the forum regulars) as the go-to source for the replacement parts.

 

-John

The square pin is normally the positive side of the cap.  I have all those boards here, if you tell me which cap, I can tell you for sure which way it fits.

 

LOL....not bad nor good luck here.....seems resoldering the cap has no effect on the

problem at hand...Whew..some tight connectors...however I'm still headed toward the motor driver...I pulled all the plugs and reseated them but I should remove the board and inspect.....HOWEVER...in the meantime I've pulled (what I think is) the motor

feedback circuit loose (blue/yel/grn) from the motor driver board and the loco works

correctly forward/reverse in conventional...plenty of forward/reverse speed...looks normal...this is a 3 wire plug and looks to be connected to the top of the forward

motor....looks maybe impossible to remove and inspect unless you remove the flywheel....maybe a "gear puller" for that.....wondering what how the feedback works...optics, brushes...magnet, photocell...anything that might be serviceable at my desk tonite or ?????....by the way...how does one go about taking the motor loose from the wheel gearbox?

Getting even better....LOLOL...never mind about how to remove motor....it just popped up...was noticing a lot of movement and about that time heard a sound and engine hesitated...removed from track...felt motor...pulled it straight up....and out...looks like there should be two maybe three screws that hold it to the gearbox...now ...even more important..how to access???....screws must be down in

gearbox cause they are not in my living room floor...!!

Wow, sounds like areal can of worms your opening up there Earnie!

 

Do you have an item number? Lionel has not made an o guage u30c with legacy. It was made in 2002 with tmcc.

 

I'm not sure how much it will help, but heres a link to available parts : TMCC U30c parts

Earnie-

 

Glad to hear you are making progress! The three wire harness you disconnected is the link between the motor-mounted magnetic encoder (the encoding ring is on the motor itself) and the DCDR, which is the heart of Lionel's Odyssey speed control system. Disconnecting the wire is the same as moving the Odyssey on/off switch to "off" and as such the engine will literally fly at warp speed in either direction. Unfortunately the only way to remove the PCB and encoding ring off the motor is with a flywheel/gear puller, but it might be easier to replace the whole sensor/motor assembly with part #6108274101. Granted it is a $26.00 part, but it's a subjective call, depending on your comfort level with a gear puller.

 

In terms of the motor, it is mounted to a bracket with two small screws (refer to page 8 in the pictorial diagram). This assembly is then screwed onto the top of the truck/gearbox with two more screws. A final long-thread screw is on the underside of the truck, which anchors the motor/motor bracket assembly to the rest of the truck itself. If the motor and plate slip right off the truck, chances are this screw is missing.

 

-John

 

Well...the motor is reconnected to the mount HOWEVER it took some doing...I had to remove a truck...one truck hold on screw is easy to get to the other I had to use a pair of needle nose...grab the screw head and turn it out...could not move the truck far enough to clear the frame...THEN with trucks off I was able to again take my needle nose, grab the screw heads and back out the TWO screws that held the motor mount in place to the gear box...gear box dropped down and the two motor to motor mount screws were loose and in the bottom...replaced/tightened screws..put all the stuff back and now all is well except it will not run with feedback plug connected.....could really use a small phillps offset screw driver to get those screws out...unless I'm missing something.....any ideas where I might find a gear puller small enough to remove the flywheel and then remove the pick up...and then another $64K question....how to test the pickup/encoder to tell if it is bad or the interface on the driver board....never ends....about lights out time for me....what an experience!!!...and a new loco at that!...

 

I have an R2LC in my hand here.  There are three electrolytic caps on it, all are polarized.  Those are the only can type caps on the board.  As I said, the square pad is + on all of them.

Earnie, most of those Odyssey flywheels have setscrews holding them on, you shouldn't need a wheel puller.  I've never put a 'scope on that signal, so I'm not sure what you'd see, I'd expect a square wave most likely.

Those are 50V 1uf NP caps, typically they're across the coupler connectors.  Being missing won't affect the operation any, you just might have random opening of the couplers at times.

 

The new motor with encoder comes with the flywheel as well.  The two "flywheels" are really the brass flywheel and the magnetic ring.

 

You will have a devil of a time removing the flywheel without the correct press!

 

Thanks gunrunnerjohn - I totally forgot about the set screws on the flywheel!

 

Earnie - I too haven't tested the sensor output on a scope, but if it is a bad sensor the replacement assembly is part #691-MMVS-B00.(Lionel's part website price). The magnetic ring on the flywheel shouldn't need to be replaced, unless it is cracked and fragmented to the point where it cannot be glued back together. If the ring is needed you'll need part #691-8080-128. Both items can be purchased direct from Lionel, Boxcar Bill, and other parts sources.

 

 

-John

No set screws on Odyssey 1.

 

Bill

Yes it's an Odyssey....can see no set screws....There are two half dollar sized wheels sitting on top of the top motor shaft...hummm bottom one has the outside ring as John has shown/described (can not detect any magnatism in it though) and another (sitting on the very top) appears to be solid...no ring. Now..

 

1. To BOTH these rings come with a new motor/encoder PCB assembly OR...

2. How to remove the flywheels and reinstall on the new motor (shaft)?

3. What tools do I need to do so?

 

It looks like the flywheels could easily crack in halves without proper tooling/technique.

Earnie-

 

Yes, the replacement front motor (610-8274-101) includes the motor, flywheel, encoding ring, and sensor PCB for about $26.00 (Lionel's price). The sensor PCB and replacement ring come to about $16.00 (Lionel's prices) alone. Granted you don't need a new motor, but for me I'd pay the $10.00 more and have a complete drop-in replacement, instead of trying to pull and reseat the flywheel without breaking the encoder ring.

 

 

-John

It's almost impossible to pull the flywheel without the proper puller.  Pressing them back on is easier, you can do it using a drill press as the press.  If you put any pressure on the bearings and side-plates of the motors, they will cave in.

He did not say it came off the R2LC, the Mother board usually has some Caps on it too.  In fact I think he mentioned mother board.  I have not seen Lionel use caps with out markings. G

Earnie,  I really think you need to start eliminating issues.  Jumping into scope various items doesn't seem like it will be productive.  Don't believe you will find specs on what you should see.

 

Do you have another TMCC engine?  G

G...we've pretty much isolated the problem and scoping just reinforces the theory of where the problem resides. Besides I do this for a living so I'll just drag out over the Tex 465 and make some comparisons for future benchmarks as my train hobby is moving towards TMCC and not so much conventional anymore. I'll make a portfolio of correct waveforms as I find myself into problem solving.

 

Looks like the wire harness is solid (there's another cap across two of the harness wires and at least it's not shorted internally), so looks like a motor/encoder assembly is the easiest and safest route.

How did you eliminate the R2LC motor phasing outputs and the Motor driver board?  G